PGA courses

[Grass Roots Tour]

Is there anyone out there who doesn't think they could play better on a tour manicured course?

The fairways are cut so short you get 30 - 50 yards of roll.
The greens roll so good every straight putt inside 6 feet is a gimmie.
The sand depth is so shallow and consistant bunkers are the best place to miss.
The gallery keeps any stray shots from getting too far out of play. If you get off the beaten path there is so much outside gear on the course you can always get a drop.
All players get a pin sheet so you know exactly how deep and wide each green is plus exactly where each pin is that day on each green.
The range has unlimited brand new balls the perfect grass to practice for as long as you want.

If you can't score in these conditions you better take up marbles or something.

[pudubny]

Grass Roots Tour,
I am lucky enough to play several PGA courses. I think they score better for a variety of reasons but I do not agree that some of those issues make the courses easier.
Fairways with extra roll can help or hurt depending on whether you have a good line.
The pin sheets help, but only because they can hit the targets a high percentage of the time.
The 6 foot putts are at speeds the normal player does not experience, especially on the weekends. Most hackers have never putted on a green reading 13 on a stimp.
What does help them is they play the same course up to 7 days straight.
They get at least two sets of eyes on every situation, the caddies and the players. The caddy studies the pocket pro in detail to help the player. They know the exact yardage on every shot but more importantly can hit it!
Must admit the sand is wonderfully consistent on these courses but I've been in some deep bunkers at a few of those courses.
I just don't want anyone taking anything away from these guys. I 've been fortunate to play with a few guys who got a sniff of the tour, and they are in a different world than hackers or even scratch players for skill.
The conditions are great but these guys would go low (relatively) anywhere.
Now some of the courses they play aren't great tests of golf such as many stadium style courses, but that is a different story.
Thanks!
Pud.

[Grass Roots Tour]

I don't want to take anything away from the pros on tour. I'm just always amazed at how far balls roll out there, when its not raining of coarse.
I regularily putt greens that quick at my home course and its far easier tp putt on them if they roll true like the tour courses.
Anyone whos a 5 handicap or better controls distances well enough to make solid use of a pin sheet. Anyone 5 or worse probably doesn't know what a pin sheet is.
Nobody goes low everywhere. Some courses just fit your eye and some.... just don't.

If more players had a chance to putt on tour type greens they would see how much easier it is, once they got used to the speed.
Another thing is the speed is far more consistant from one green to another, which again makes it easier.

[EDSGolf]

I guess I better go buy a set of marbles then :(

[laxgolf]

I played Eagle Creek in Ottawa the day after the Canadian Tour Championship back in 2001. The course was still set up in sunday tourney conditions. I thought I played well, but still I got my azz handed to me on a platter. Missing a fairway or green was an automatic stroke and the greens were FAST. Pros are good enough to take advantage of the pristine tour conditions. The most of everyone else isn't.

[pudubny]

GRT.

I have played Paris Grand more than once and it hasn't played more than 10 on stimp on any of those occassions. 11 is tricky, 12 is obscene. I had this demonstrated to me at Oakland Hills. At 12 putts from above the hole aon severely sloped greens are real scary, even for pros. Watch the US Open this year and you will hear the pros taking about being below the hole like born again Christians.
Many courses have true greens, several tour courses do not, for example, Pebble Beach.
The conditioning is ideal, but that doesn't always help. Some of the conditioning actually works against them. At Angus Glen they racked the grass to get it to stand up more and bury the balls. Grass that thick at 5" deep? I not sure that makes it easier on them. Friends played there Monday after the event and they couldn't believe it was the same course. Each person was way above their average score and two of them are low handicappers. Same with friends that played Oakland Hills after the Ryder Cup, they were members and the course played 5 to 8 strokes more difficult, again low handicapers.
5 handicappers precentage of greens in regulation is below 65%, seeing how that is approx the tour average so I don't know how much a pin sheet is going to help. A low handicapper who plays at his member course will get to know pin positions after a couple of years. And their is a huge difference in a scratch golfer from the whites or blues and a pro from the tips.
And I said they go relatively low everywhere, meaning they do better than most could do from the tips under the same conditions.
Your point about true rolling greens is well taken but many courses have true rolling greens, not just tour stops. True fast greens are not the exclusive domain of the PGA Tour.
I just don't agree with your premise that the conditions make it easier for these guys. The conditions contribute to the difficulty just as much.
Sorry.

Pud.


I don't want to take anything away from the pros on tour. I'm just always amazed at how far balls roll out there, when its not raining of coarse.
I regularily putt greens that quick at my home course and its far easier tp putt on them if they roll true like the tour courses.
Anyone whos a 5 handicap or better controls distances well enough to make solid use of a pin sheet. Anyone 5 or worse probably doesn't know what a pin sheet is.
Nobody goes low everywhere. Some courses just fit your eye and some.... just don't.

If more players had a chance to putt on tour type greens they would see how much easier it is, once they got used to the speed.
Another thing is the speed is far more consistant from one green to another, which again makes it easier.

[EDSGolf]

Whoops forgot to mention. I played Angus Glen a few weeks before the Canadian Open a few years ago, I was a 15 handicapper back then and I shot 106, the rough was sooooo long and greens fast! The PGA Tour stepped in and told Angus Glen to cut it a bit and slow down the greens according to a friend of mine that works there..

[Mok]

Is there anyone out there who doesn't think they could play better on a tour manicured course?

The fairways are cut so short you get 30 - 50 yards of roll.
The greens roll so good every straight putt inside 6 feet is a gimmie.
The sand depth is so shallow and consistant bunkers are the best place to miss.
The gallery keeps any stray shots from getting too far out of play. If you get off the beaten path there is so much outside gear on the course you can always get a drop.
All players get a pin sheet so you know exactly how deep and wide each green is plus exactly where each pin is that day on each green.
The range has unlimited brand new balls the perfect grass to practice for as long as you want.

If you can't score in these conditions you better take up marbles or something.
I think there are pros and cons to all the of the mentioned above...and it definitely depends on what level of golfer you are to begin with.

GRT: you do have an interesting theory and this is a great debate...love it!

[Grass Roots Tour]

I guess I have a strange set of circumstanes. I am a particularily straight hitter and my greens in regulation stat is better than most at my level. I do need work on getting the ball closer to the hole on the greens in reg stat though. My lag putting needs a buttload of work as does my short game. I would be far lower than 5 handicap if I could get up and down like the pros.
So based on that I suggest I could play better with better conditioning like tour courses have. I guess not everyone can take advantage of fast fairways if your headed for the rough.

[Golftool]

Played the Pinehurst track - wow! - never seen a ball move that fast or twist and turn with the smallest breaks! - Blow on it and it went 30 feet! - There is not a single guy on here that could control a putt on a PGA course before/after the Tour plays there. I have played Pinehurst dozens of times and I cannot figure out those greens!!!!!:eek:

[Grass Roots Tour]

Played the Pinehurst track - wow! - never seen a ball move that fast or twist and turn with the smallest breaks! - Blow on it and it went 30 feet! - There is not a single guy on here that could control a putt on a PGA course before/after the Tour plays there. I have played Pinehurst dozens of times and I cannot figure out those greens!!!!!:eek:

Thats a rash statement to make about hundreds of guys you never met!:nono:

[Golftool]

If anyone here could play those courses and score - They wouldn't be here - Right?!?!? - They would be on tour chasing Tiger. - That's not a barb against anyone here its just a plain fact!

[Golftool]

On another note - it is really nice to get on a fairway (cut and rolled) that looks like your mothers Living room carpet (with the vacuum marks - no foot prints etc.) and hit from it. Just gives you a good feeling and more confidence.

I am not saying anyone here hasn't got game - just not the kind of game you need to take on Tiger etc.!

[Grass Roots Tour]

The PGA isn't the only professional tour out there. And those guys are arguably the best 155 players in the world. What about the top 10,000 players? Trust me when I say those guys are awesome players too.
The top 2000 in Ontario are great players in their own right. Those guys might be good enough to play golf for a living at SOME level but may have to hold down a job to make ends meet. Some have kids to support, large mortgages, or just not willing to give up they're lifestyle to chase a dream.

[Golftool]

Touche - GRT - There ARE a lot of great golfers on other tours - I used to go to Diamond Back to watch Ian Legget BEFORE anyone ever heard of him (well most) - it is great to watch the "up and commers" - they can hit a ball really well and i dont know if you ever played Diamond Back but i saw Ian hit the back of the green on #18 in 2 with a front pin and proceeded to sink a 70' put downhill - 3 or 4 tiers to win it - great golf!

And all the best to those 10K or so trying to eke out a living on the road with the wife and kids at home!:)

[under4hrs]

Would a single digit realize some added yardage with some of the fairways (not this year perhaps) - yes, for sure.

Straight putts - rare on a Sunday pin placement - most guys don't handle the pressure of a putt that menas the difference between paying your mortgage or buying a car.

Pin Sheets - this I agree with - or at a bare minimum guide books.

I think we should remember the shot making abilities that the upper echelon of players have - pin is tuckedleft, I'll hit a draw - short pin, I'll float one in - deep pin, I'll hit a knockdown, tucked right, a little cutter.

That is one of the big differences - their ability to deal with the shot given them, instead of looking for a flat lie, short fairway, or pristine conditions... :)