Ball movement when Putting.

[Focker Singh]

Has anyone have this happen to them? You're just about the putt the ball and your ball moves from either the wind or just the way it lies. Did you know that thats a 1 stroke penalty? Read this article. Tom Lehman gave himself a penalty last week when he thought his ball moved just before he hit the ball. http://www.golfserve.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=28361

The ruling is that if your ball moves during your address of the ball, you will receive a 1 stroke penalty.

[Mok]

haha, damn...well according to him, he shoulda called the stroke penalty earlier, that way he wouldn't be thinking about it and making errors on the next holes...

[Ego Woods]

Has anyone have this happen to them? You're just about the putt the ball and your ball moves from either the wind or just the way it lies. Did you know that thats a 1 stroke penalty? Read this article. Tom Lehman gave himself a penalty last week when he thought his ball moved just before he hit the ball. http://www.golfserve.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=28361

The ruling is that if your ball moves during your address of the ball, you will receive a 1 stroke penalty.
I applaud him for being a true sport, especially when he was definitely in contention at the time.......:clap:

[Focker Singh]

What sportsmanship! Even her peers applauded him for his action. I guess it would have been eating up his insides if he didn't do it. He wanted a clear conscience. The poor guy hasn't won on tour since 2000.

[Queen of the Beach]

Wow...I think that is a tough penalty to take. I read somewhere that there is a one stroke penalty if the ball hits you after you take a swing. (Say it bounces back from a tree or the lip of the bunker.) Is that true?

[Ego Woods]

Wow...I think that is a tough penalty to take. I read somewhere that there is a one stroke penalty if the ball hits you after you take a swing. (Say it bounces back from a tree or the lip of the bunker.) Is that true?
Close, it's a two stroke penalty! :(

[Mok]

Close, it's a two stroke penalty! :(
damn so if you hit it and it bounces off a tree knocks you unconcious you get a 2 stroke penalty and a concussion? haha...

[Ego Woods]

damn so if you hit it and it bounces off a tree knocks you unconcious you get a 2 stroke penalty and a concussion? haha...
what's scary is that it's probably happened to some ppl before!..ahaha....also got to becareful to protect the family jewels! :rolleyes:

[Shadow]

I find it strange that Tom be highly complimented for his sportsmanship when he "called" himself for the ball moving. He broke a rule, therefore a penalty is incurred. Simple. He has no choice in the matter, other than if he knows the ball moves and says nothing, he is a cheater. Harsh, but true.

While there are times when clarification is needed as to what to do, or how many strokes to add, there is no denying the truth. If the ball is OB, then the penalty is stroke and distance, if it is in a water or lateral water hazard, 1 stroke, if the ball hits your golf bag, 2 strokes. There are no real judgement calls.

And yet, so many golfers cheat. Some unintentionally, because they don't know that what they did may be subject to a penalty. This is forgiveable.

In a valley championship a few years ago, my ball moved forward on the putting green, like Lehman's, and I simple stopped, informed my fellow competitors that my ball had moved, and tapped it in. They thought that I was nuts for "calling" myself. My respect for them went to zero. BTW: I tied for first instead of winning the tourney outright.

This problem can be avoided if after setting your feet, you do NOT sole the club head on the green. By definition, you have not addressed the ball, therefore if the ball moves, there is no penalty.

[Ego Woods]

I find it strange that Tom be highly complimented for his sportsmanship when he "called" himself for the ball moving. He broke a rule, therefore a penalty is incurred. Simple. He has no choice in the matter, other than if he knows the ball moves and says nothing, he is a cheater. Harsh, but true.
I believe he should be commended for this...I know that golf is diff't than other sports in where there is a certain amount of 'class' involved in the game, but I plainly see it as in a competition play:

he wasn't sure if the ball moved and the official did not see the ball move....so he called it on himself....

Especially in a game where it matters, money is involved, rankings, PGA card status, births into other tournaments, etc.......it's not as easy as most would think.....

If we look at the world of sports (basketball, volleyball, football, tennis and many others).....u can easily see on tv, many ppl who know they broke a rule but didn't admit to it....(i.e. a player not getting called for a foul, or a ball which lands in but the player doesn't say anything)....these players ARE cheaters, but they don't carry a bad rap by any fans for being known as one....I believe regardless of the game, it takes some 'class' to be able to call something on yourself....

[Shadow]

I believe he should be commended for this...I know that golf is diff't than other sports in where there is a certain amount of 'class' involved in the game, but I plainly see it as in a competition play:
Especially in a game where it matters, money is involved, rankings, PGA card status, births into other tournaments, etc.......it's not as easy as most would think.....
If we look at the world of sports (basketball, volleyball, football, tennis and many others).....u can easily see on tv, many ppl who know they broke a rule but didn't admit to it....(i.e. a player not getting called for a foul, or a ball which lands in but the player doesn't say anything)....these players ARE cheaters, but they don't carry a bad rap by any fans for being known as one....I believe regardless of the game, it takes some 'class' to be able to call something on yourself....

In sports like those ementioned above, there are referees who call enfractions. Players do whatever they can to gain an advantage over the other team by breaking the rules(cheating), and it up to the refs to keep this cheating to a minimum.

Golf is enormously different. There are no referees to call enfractions. If your ball is outside the white stakes, it's out of bounds. Period. It does not matter who saw the ball go out, or if no-one saw it go out. It's out. Penalty: Stroke and distance. You do not have a choice. If you say you had a 4 when with the OB, you had a 6, your a cheater.

So if I see my ball move, even if no-one else did, and I say something, it's not good sportsmanship, it's just being honest. Now, what I call good sportsmanship is when I see you place your ball on the tee, ahead of the markers, and say something to you, or if I see you about to drop the ball in the wrong place or in the wrong manner, and I tell you. This prevents you from breaking a rule and being penalized. That's a classy move. But I don't see honesty in golf equating with good sportsmanship.

If when you play, you just want to hit golf shots and not count score, that's fine. But, if you score, you have to count them all, not just some of them. Don't tell me you scored 71, when you had 75. If you keep a handicap then it should reflect the results of your scores made. Eliminating the good games from the mix means a higher handiacp, increasing your chance of winning net scores in any form of competition. That's cheating. Having an ego that thinks that you are better than you really are, by not counting all the strokes means a lower handicap than earned. It's cheating.

I may be wacko, but I just don't understand what's wrong with playing golf honestly.

[Mok]

it's always good to play honest. but if i was Lehman, I would have stopped, asked an official to review it by video and see if there is a problem, if there is none then play on. I say this because maybe the ball didn't really move, so asking for official ruling is a good way to address this issue, that way he can have a clear conscience :)

[Jaydog]

In a valley championship a few years ago, my ball moved forward on the putting green, like Lehman's, and I simple stopped, informed my fellow competitors that my ball had moved, and tapped it in. They thought that I was nuts for "calling" myself. My respect for them went to zero. BTW: I tied for first instead of winning the tourney outright.


kudos to you shadow. your actions say a lot about your character.

i think most of the pros and serious players would behave properly in similar situations. it's just that no one saw the ball move and lehman was not sure either; he "felt" it did and assessed the penalty. the media just ran with it after that. most calls are pretty clear but his was a tough one even after the replays.

[Focker Singh]

it's always good to play honest. but if i was Lehman, I would have stopped, asked an official to review it by video and see if there is a problem, if there is none then play on. I say this because maybe the ball didn't really move, so asking for official ruling is a good way to address this issue, that way he can have a clear conscience :)
Sorry Mok, no video reply in golf. Whatever happens, happens.

[Jaydog]

it's always good to play honest. but if i was Lehman, I would have stopped, asked an official to review it by video and see if there is a problem, if there is none then play on. I say this because maybe the ball didn't really move, so asking for official ruling is a good way to address this issue, that way he can have a clear conscience :)

even one of the officials said he didn't see it move and that the final call would be up to lehman.

[Focker Singh]

In sports like those ementioned above, there are referees who call enfractions. Players do whatever they can to gain an advantage over the other team by breaking the rules(cheating), and it up to the refs to keep this cheating to a minimum.

Golf is enormously different. There are no referees to call enfractions. If your ball is outside the white stakes, it's out of bounds. Period. It does not matter who saw the ball go out, or if no-one saw it go out. It's out. Penalty: Stroke and distance. You do not have a choice. If you say you had a 4 when with the OB, you had a 6, your a cheater.

So if I see my ball move, even if no-one else did, and I say something, it's not good sportsmanship, it's just being honest. Now, what I call good sportsmanship is when I see you place your ball on the tee, ahead of the markers, and say something to you, or if I see you about to drop the ball in the wrong place or in the wrong manner, and I tell you. This prevents you from breaking a rule and being penalized. That's a classy move. But I don't see honesty in golf equating with good sportsmanship.

If when you play, you just want to hit golf shots and not count score, that's fine. But, if you score, you have to count them all, not just some of them. Don't tell me you scored 71, when you had 75. If you keep a handicap then it should reflect the results of your scores made. Eliminating the good games from the mix means a higher handiacp, increasing your chance of winning net scores in any form of competition. That's cheating. Having an ego that thinks that you are better than you really are, by not counting all the strokes means a lower handicap than earned. It's cheating.

I may be wacko, but I just don't understand what's wrong with playing golf honestly.
At first, I thought it was good sportsmanship for Lehman to call himself for a penalty but after reading all these good replies, I think I agree with Shadow. I think what Lehman did was honest, not sportsmanship. I guess the "grey area" was the fact that he wasn't sure if his ball had moved or not and nobody saw it to help him out. I think my handicap just increased a few strokes now cause I don't play by the rules....hahaha :rofl: ...I'm a cheater! :nono: :help:

[Mule56]

This problem can be avoided if after setting your feet, you do NOT sole the club head on the green. By definition, you have not addressed the ball, therefore if the ball moves, there is no penalty.
Shadow has brought out a good point. If you ever get to read Eddie Merrin's (sp) book Swing The Handle, he suggests this for all strokes. Of course grounding the club in a hazard is not allowed. But in all other situations you can avoid a penalty for a moving ball if you don't ground the club. Merrin's also suggests some bennifts to swing plane and attack angle with this also.
Mule

[Ego Woods]

In sports like those ementioned above, there are referees who call enfractions. Players do whatever they can to gain an advantage over the other team by breaking the rules(cheating), and it up to the refs to keep this cheating to a minimum.

Golf is enormously different. There are no referees to call enfractions. If your ball is outside the white stakes, it's out of bounds. Period. It does not matter who saw the ball go out, or if no-one saw it go out. It's out. Penalty: Stroke and distance. You do not have a choice. If you say you had a 4 when with the OB, you had a 6, your a cheater.
While I agree that golf is different......in PGA tournaments, there are rules officials while not acting entirely like referees, do monitor the players to see they do not violate any of the rules of golf.....am I wrong in this assumption?

So if I see my ball move, even if no-one else did, and I say something, it's not good sportsmanship, it's just being honest. Now, what I call good sportsmanship is when I see you place your ball on the tee, ahead of the markers, and say something to you, or if I see you about to drop the ball in the wrong place or in the wrong manner, and I tell you. This prevents you from breaking a rule and being penalized. That's a classy move. But I don't see honesty in golf equating with good sportsmanship.
Lehman thought he saw the ball move but wasn't sure, and the official didn't see it move.....so he gave himself the penalty anyways...especially when he's in contention for the win, I would call this a pretty classy move...'sportmanship' however maybe the wrong word to use.....

I may be wacko, but I just don't understand what's wrong with playing golf honestly.
Shadow, I never said there's anything 'wrong' with playing honestly.....I'm with you on that one 100%....but I think we have to look at the circumstances that Lehman was in before he gave himself the penalty, and quite a few would think this was a pretty classy move on his part......I also already read what u said about giving urself the penalty in a tournament where u ended up having to tie for first....I think a lot of ppl would give u credit for that.....whether u think it's warranted or not....:)

[Shadow]

While I agree that golf is different......in PGA tournaments, there are rules officials while not acting entirely like referees, do monitor the players to see they do not violate any of the rules of golf.....am I wrong in this assumption?
Good question and frankly, I am not sure.

I have only played in two RCGA officialed tournaments and for the most part, they were just there in case a ruling was required.

However, one time after hitting my ball into a hazard, an official came over and asked if I know what my options were. I said, "Yes," chose the one I wanted, marked the area with tees and before I dropped, I just asked him for confirmation that what I did was correct, as a courtesy.

Had I been about to make a mistake, he would have said something. So I guess the conclusion is that they do monitor the players, but mainly to ensure that the dropping procedures followed are according to the rules, which would prevent disqualification.

The rule that is most often broken is finding the "nearest point of relief," when taking relief from an obstruction, casual water, and grounds under repar, but that is a topic for another thread.

[noback]

in PGA tournaments, there are rules officials while not acting entirely like referees, do monitor the players to see they do not violate any of the rules of golf.....am I wrong in this assumption?I believe there are marshalls or PGA reps of some kind with every group but "rules officials" only on every couple...... I've seen it on TV when they have to wait for a "rules official" to get there.:confused:

Wow...I think that is a tough penalty to take. I read somewhere that there is a one stroke penalty if the ball hits you after you take a swing. (Say it bounces back from a tree or the lip of the bunker.) Is that true?
This did happened when Mike Weir won the Master in 2003. Third-round leader Jeff Maggert lost his lead with a bizarre two-shot penalty at the third hole. He blasted out of a bunker, had his ball ricochet off the lip and hit him in the chest.:eek:

[Ems]

What an interesting conversation. From reading everything, I see Shadow's point about Lehman doing the 'right' thing and shouldn't be commended, he's just playing by the rules. Given what was at stake, he must have been pretty sure the ball did move to make his final decision.

Now, about the ball moving... I'm not really sure why there's a penalty and how you can avoid it. The ball moved and it was a penalty because his putter touched the ground? In order to avoid a penalty, while addressing the ball, keep the club or putter off the ground? Thanks if someone can explain this to me :D

[Ego Woods]

I believe there are marshalls or PGA reps of some kind with every group but "rules officials" only on every couple...... I've seen it on TV when they have to wait for a "rules official" to get there.:confused:
Yeah the rules officials start off with them, but have a hard time keeping up with them...:D

Rules officials in PGA tournaments do "officiate" if I remember correctly.......I saw an instance where Duffy Waldorf was assessed a 2 stroke penalty for fixing a divot that was 2 feet in front of his ball on the fairway. This is a case where he didn't know there would be a penalty b4 he fixed it but the official assessed it to him.....is this correct?

[Andru]

Has anyone have this happen to them? You're just about the putt the ball and your ball moves from either the wind or just the way it lies. Did you know that thats a 1 stroke penalty? Read this article. Tom Lehman gave himself a penalty last week when he thought his ball moved just before he hit the ball. http://www.golfserve.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=28361

The ruling is that if your ball moves during your address of the ball, you will receive a 1 stroke penalty.
I think it's ok if you haven't grounded your putter. For example If you adress the ball and hover your putter head above the ground and it moves you're ok. I'll have to break out the rule book for this one.

[Andru]

Yeah the rules officials start off with them, but have a hard time keeping up with them...:D

Rules officials in PGA tournaments do "officiate" if I remember correctly.......I saw an instance where Duffy Waldorf was assessed a 2 stroke penalty for fixing a divot that was 2 feet in front of his ball on the fairway. This is a case where he didn't know there would be a penalty b4 he fixed it but the official assessed it to him.....is this correct?Yes you can't improve your line to the hole. Example if you're on the fringe and there's a pitch mark in front of your ball you're not allowed to fix it. In this case Duffy fixed a divot 2 feet in front of the ball, but he didn't believe it improved his line because it wasn't directly in line with the flag it was off to the right.

I thought it was a bogus ruling.

[Shadow]

Yes you can't improve your line to the hole. Example if you're on the fringe and there's a pitch mark in front of your ball you're not allowed to fix it. In this case Duffy fixed a divot 2 feet in front of the ball, but he didn't believe it improved his line because it wasn't directly in line with the flag it was off to the right.
I thought it was a bogus ruling.
Perhaps, but if the rule states that you cannot improve the "area of intended swing" versus "his line," would this make the ruling more valid?

Rule 13-2.
"Except... a player shall not improve... "the area of his intended stance or swing," "his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line of play..." by, "removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots, or other cut turf pressed into position."

Duffy did this and was appropriately penalized for the infraction. While his pressing the divot down probably would not have improved the quality of his shot he still broke an existing rule. Of course, if the pressing down of the divot would not have affected his shot, then why did he press it down?

The ironic thing is that if in taking his stance, the divot was pressed down or removed, it's OK, or, if the divot affects your backswing motion you can move it, but if it may be in your way when you swing through, you cannot touch it.

Bizarre? Yes. Bogus? Don't think so.

[Andru]

Perhaps, but if the rule states that you cannot improve the "area of intended swing" versus "his line," would this make the ruling more valid?

Rule 13-2.
"Except... a player shall not improve... "the area of his intended stance or swing," "his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line of play..." by, "removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots, or other cut turf pressed into position."

Duffy did this and was appropriately penalized for the infraction. While his pressing the divot down probably would not have improved the quality of his shot he still broke an existing rule. Of course, if the pressing down of the divot would not have affected his shot, then why did he press it down?

The ironic thing is that if in taking his stance, the divot was pressed down or removed, it's OK, or, if the divot affects your backswing motion you can move it, but if it may be in your way when you swing through, you cannot touch it.

Bizarre? Yes. Bogus? Don't think so.Considering he's right hand golfer, a ball to the right of the target line doesn't in my opinion represent "a reasonable extension of that line of play". If it was to the left I would agree. He was fixing the course like anyone does. If I see a divot sitting there on my way to the green I'll stop and find a home for it. It in no way improved his shot or his sight line. It was bogus and everyone who saw the replay on the broadcast agreed. Except Mark Lie. But that guy's an idiot anyway.