CFRB Listener Poll - sell city golf courses?

[torontodude]

CFRB is doing a poll asking if the city should sell the 5 municipal golf courses. The results are making me sad...I'm worried about this. If this ever happens it will mean the further decline of our city on Miller's watch.

See the poll here:
http://www.cfrb.com/polls/738/570813/results

[nearace]

thats a shame to even try that crap,is that even legal without a vote?:mad:

[Kace]

Since I'm not from and don't live in Toronto, just wondering, what are the 5 muni courses?

Are the course's accounting statements available for the public? Are they losing or making money?

[nearace]

http://www.toronto.ca/parks/golf/ they are here got to get this out of my mind as I love dentonia:(

[Ben Hogans]

Since I'm not from and don't live in Toronto, just wondering, what are the 5 muni courses?

Are the course's accounting statements available for the public? Are they losing or making money?

Don Valley, HumberValley, Scarlett woods, Tam O'shanter and Dentonia.
Don't know if the FS are public though.

[dekker]

CFRB is just ****-disturbing trying to push some buttons.
However there are enough losers out there who think this is a good idea. Probably the same people that voted for Miller.:rofl:

[hogannut]

Of course the poll is going to have numbers like this because it is over the entire population base of which not everyone golfs. I'd love to see the pole results again, if they were to tell the people surveyed how much money these golf courses generate for the city.

If you compare golf courses to city rinks, golf courses actually make money and rinks don't, so maybe we should sell off all the city arenas too!! While we're at it, let's close all the city parks, they lose money every year. In fact any and all city ammenities should be scrapped because they cost money.

Just because a radio station does a survey doesn't mean it will happen.

[torontodude]

I can't believe that Don Valley isn't making money for the city. It is the most played golf course in North America...maybe even the world. It's one of the only public golf courses on a subway line.

It would be a shame to lose any of them but Don Valley would be a horrible loss for the city...it's a gem of a course.

I played there early this morning and conditions were good - greens are always a little slow there but boy was I making putts today. There is some construction going on still on those 401 bridges and the course itself is under a bit of construction...they were moving some big landscaping rocks around. Looks like they are improving it, not closing it. As well, they seem to have mowed the fairways in such a way as to show the mid-line of the fairways like at the PGA championship at Southern Hills.

Tied for my best round of the season with an 83.

Please don't close Don Valley!

I just want to add that our inept buffoon of a mayor is on a mission to make the citizens of this city suffer for not voting in his taxes last month. Closing golf courses, which represent fun, leisure and so many other good things is just the thing he would do. He's that much of a moron.

[Bellyhungry]

What if they outsource the day-to-day operations of the courses while maintaining ownership?

[ontario]

Let's sell all the skating rinks, tennis courts, baseball diamonds and soccer fields too. Oh and while we're at it, why don't we distribute guns to kids so they have something to do?

City government is a farce. You should try sitting in on a council session one day. I've never seen a more disfunctional, non-productive organization in my life.

I'm so glad we don't have a bridge to the island airport. That does seem like such a big issue now, doesn't it?

One correction I would like to make is the misconception (not here but in the general media), that the Toronto municipal golf courses are somehow unique and special. It's a crock. Cities and towns all over North America and Europe operate golf courses and most them know how to turn a tidy profit. There's this course called Carnoustie that some of you may have heard of - owned and operated by the Town of Carnoustie.

Check out NYC's golf courses and their rates:

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/af_golf.html

$7.50 for juniors! $34 at Don Valley.

San Francisco operates 6 golf courses. Harding Park would blow you away. You wouldn't believe it's a muni.

Are we supposed to feel special that the City of Toronto allows us plebs to whack a ball around on their land? Oh wait, it's *our* land, isn't it?

[3whack]

Or, learning from their friends at Queens Park as to how they handled the undervalued sale of the Skydome and the 407, why don't they just sell Don Valley to me for, let's say, $2,000.

Even if the entire course is floodplane, I figure I could make a really good buck just by selling off the parking lost, practice greens and clubhouse to a developer.

And the rest of the course would turned into individual plots and sold to "farmers"----ie those grow-op operators that are tired of destroying residential homes in Markham, Scarborough and Vaughan.

[ontario]

OK, I'm on a roll here. Someone stop me. I looked at Harding Park (San Francisco) rate page. $45 for SF city residents, $15 for juniors. This is for a world class golf course good enough to host the 2005 World Golf Championship. Yep, owned and operated by the City of San Francisco.

[dekker]

Who owns CFRB? (Ted Rogers?)
Is he into RealEstate by any chance too? Just asking.:rolleyes:

http://www.cfrb.com/polls/738/570813
Cast your vote! no ID required. vote often

[SoNgMaN]

the city courses only have value as agolf course, they are all built on flood plains so developers won't be able to convert them into the $$$ condos or neighbourhoods they'd like to.

well maybe not tam. it's the best one too

[hogannut]

NO golf courses are going to be developed before years of debate, so for the time being everything is fine. I played DV this past weekend and know the pro there fairly well. All he said is they MIGHT close earlier in the season, anything beyond on that is rumours.

IMO....go ahead and sell the golf courses to a PRIVATE business owner. If in fact that happened I betcha the golf courses would improve in their conditioning and maybe even cost less to maintain because you are not paying over paid union employees to maintain the course. If I was looking to buy a golf course, and had the funds to do so I would be VERY interested in a golf course that produces the number of rounds the muni tracks produce.

As already has been mentioned, DV can't be developed because it is on a flood plain, same with most parts of Dentonnia. Tam could be built on, but again if that were to be proposed it would be debated for years before any decision would be made.

My big question is where are the innovative thinkers that USED to run this city? Fred Gardiner (OK....but at the time the Gardiner Expressway was a good idea) for example knew what it took to make a great city. Running a city isn't all about the money, and the fact Miller is incompotent shows up when you start talking about the $. This city produces enormous amounts of money for itself, I'd love to know where it goes.

A lot of it goes to these unions that have their noses up Miller a$$, and vice versa. I doubt he would have even won the last election if it wasn't for the union vote.

Don't close the golf courses, don't close the rinks, stop taking away the services that we the citizens pay for, and pay a lot of money for. Every year we pay more and more and get less and less for our money. For example every year I pay more and more for my kids to play hockey, and the reason why is the ice time is more expensive. My kids play out of a city rink, so I pay taxes, and pay more and more as well. I realize costs go up, but so do our taxes, and we still pay more and more.

Just like the garbage strike last summer. We are not in the 1800's anymore, there is no longer a need for unions. We overpay for EVERY SINGLE SERVICE we receive in this city, and the politicians only sit in their offices giving themselves raises and million dollar office upgrades (until they get caught) and then cry poor to the public.

[Bellyhungry]

......go ahead and sell the golf courses to a PRIVATE business owner. If in fact that happened I betcha the golf courses would improve in their conditioning and maybe even cost less to maintain because you are not paying over paid union employees to maintain the course.....

.....A lot of it goes to these unions that have their noses up Miller a$$, and vice versa. I doubt he would have even won the last election if it wasn't for the union vote.....Just like the garbage strike last summer. We are not in the 1800's anymore, there is no longer a need for unions. We overpay for EVERY SINGLE SERVICE we receive in this city, and the politicians only sit in their offices giving themselves raises and million dollar office upgrades (until they get caught) and then cry poor to the public.

You should run for the next municipal election as long as the two items above is on your agenda. They are exactly my sentiment...

I will vote for you.....

I think a lot of us erroneously think and a politician is also a good manager. I think the position of the city manager should be elevated and a professional should be appointed. I would even go outside of the country to hire such a person.

[hogannut]

You should run for the next municipal election as long as the two items above is on your agenda. They are exactly my sentiment...

I will vote for you.....

I think a lot of us erroneously think and a politician is also a good manager. I think the position of the city manager should be elevated and a professional should be appointed. I would even go outside of the country to hire such a person.

One vote down.....2 million + left to go!!:eek: :rofl: :D

[golf-QXR]

IMO....I betcha the golf courses would improve in their conditioning and maybe even cost less to maintain because you are not paying over paid union employees to maintain the course.

The reality of this is that if the city sold the "business" of the golf courses to be used as golf courses, the union collective agreements would follow the sale.


We are not in the 1800's anymore, there is no longer a need for unions.

From long experience on both sides of this equation, I disagree with you here. Granted, working conditions have greatly improved since the industrial age largely due to efforts by organized labour. However, to say that there is no need for unions at all is unrealistic. I tell my clients who are being organized that if a union prevails at a vote, it is likely the union that the employer deserves.

My biggest gripe with Miller is his closeness with those on - what the Globe and Mail calls - the "gluten free kibbutz" on the islands who go absolutely crazy at the thought of the City Centre Airport. Similar to a gem like Don Valley Golf Course, that airport is a jewel in the downtown area with unrealized money making potential for the city.

[hogannut]

The reality of this is that if the city sold the "business" of the golf courses to be used as golf courses, the union collective agreements would follow the sale.




From long experience on both sides of this equation, I disagree with you here. Granted, working conditions have greatly improved since the industrial age largely due to efforts by organized labour. However, to say that there is no need for unions at all is unrealistic. I tell my clients who are being organized that if a union prevails at a vote, it is likely the union that the employer deserves.

My biggest gripe with Miller is his closeness with those on - what the Globe and Mail calls - the "gluten free kibbutz" on the islands who go absolutely crazy at the thought of the City Centre Airport. Similar to a gem like Don Valley Golf Course, that airport is a jewel in the downtown area with unrealized money making potential for the city.

The job of governments whether they are municipal, provincial or federal is to provide services to the citizens of the city/province/country and in theory it should be run as a non-profit "business". Paying union employees a higher wage for the same job as a non-union employee when dealing with a government is a waste of the citizens tax dollars. For example, paying a garbage collector $45K is overpaying, plain and simple. Go contract out Waste Management to pick up our garbage and the same guy who throws the garbage in the truck will make $30K.

A friend of mine works for Bell Canada, and is in a union. He does the same job as me.....tech support, and he makes $10 -$15K more than me. Is his job any more demanding than mine? NO....but he gets his union "perks" and someone pays for that, mostly Bell Canada's customers. I realize these guys pay their union dues and so on, but IMO unions are out dated now.

Unions were originally formed because of unfair working conditions, but these days with all the labor laws now in place (that weren't there 100 years ago) the concept of "protecting" workers from the mean old capitalist are essentially over.

Whether or not unions are still necessary these days can be discussed on another thread, but as a tax payer it really pi$$es me off how MY tax dollars are spent erronously by bueracrats who have no respect for how hard we work for the money they waste, and then take more from me when they run out.:hush: :help:

I will agree with you about your comments on DV, it is a gem! Yes the greens are shaggy, and beaten up from so many rounds on them, but the fact we have a golf course like that is what makes Toronto a great city. Diversity, culture, and the ability to have some natural settings in a big city is what is important. I played DV once with a guy who was here on business from LA. He was able to take the subway from his downtown hotel to the course and play. He was totally blown away that a regulation golf course exististed in the city, and his overall experience of Toronto was improved because of his experience. When he went home I am quite sure he would have told all of his friends/family/co-workers about it. That is FREE advertising and the best kind you can get....word of mouth.

Not only does things like muni golf courses enhance a cities overall persona, but in the case of our muni courses they produce LARGE amounts of income for the city, which Mr Miller seems to not understand by saying he will shut down a money maker early to save money?

[Jeffc]

Isn't Torrey Pines a municipal track?

I couldn't agree more with the above sentiments. Golf courses are no different than any other recreational service or facility that the city provides. They should be there to provide an affordable place for people to play. Selling these to private hands will undoubtedly raise the fees, especially if it is a busy and well liked course.

[hogannut]

Isn't Torrey Pines a municipal track?

I couldn't agree more with the above sentiments. Golf courses are no different than any other recreational service or facility that the city provides. They should be there to provide an affordable place for people to play. Selling these to private hands will undoubtedly raise the fees, especially if it is a busy and well liked course.

Yes...you are correct. Maybe we should complain to Mr Miller DV is not up to Torrey Pines standards. :rofl: :rolleyes: :D

While we are on the subject of American cities I will tell you right now that the $hit would hit the fan if this was happening in a US city. Americans simply do not accept high taxes without an explaination. BUt I digress....:hush:

[Kace]

Isn't Torrey Pines a municipal track?

So is Bethpage.

[Bellyhungry]

Miller is incompetent and is incapable to fix this mess. And since it is established that most of the people here did not vote for him, it must have been our neighbors who voted for him.

Moral of the story: Hate Thy Neighbors

[Ben Hogans]

Yes...you are correct. Maybe we should complain to Mr Miller DV is not up to Torrey Pines standards. :rofl: :rolleyes: :D

While we are on the subject of American cities I will tell you right now that the $hit would hit the fan if this was happening in a US city. Americans simply do not accept high taxes without an explaination. BUt I digress....:hush:

He can look at neighbouring cities like Mississauga (Braeben or Lakeview)or further west to Kitchener (Grey Silo). For that mater, maybe Miller should look to Hazel McCallion for some advice.

[hogannut]

He can look at neighbouring cities like Mississauga (Braeben or Lakeview)or further west to Kitchener (Grey Silo). For that mater, maybe Miller should look to Hazel McCallion for some advice.

Hazel rocks!!!! The world needs more politicians like her!

[Bellyhungry]

Hazel rocks!!!! The world needs more politicians like her!

Most of the Mississauga dwellers drive to T.O for higher paying jobs. I won't give her the credit just yet.

[Happyhooker]

DV actually makes an annual operating profit in the range of $500,000. Good thing for them that they do not have to pay municipal taxes on the land nor have to pay any financing charges on debt. Given the number of rounds going through DV, even at the reasonable rates charged, their profit should at least twice that much. Just goes to show how poorly government takes care of our money.

[bythehour]

DV actually makes an annual operating profit in the range of $500,000. Good thing for them that they do not have to pay municipal taxes on the land nor have to pay any financing charges on debt. Given the number of rounds going through DV, even at the reasonable rates charged, their profit should at least twice that much. Just goes to show how poorly government takes care of our money.

for that matter, many of the old courses in the city get HUGE tax breaks. Royal St. Georges, to name one, enjoys significant discounts on its tax status and also receives preferential hydro rates.

Golf courses are an obvious choice for this left-leaning council (and its citizens) because our sport is still seen as a past-time of the wealthy (or at least, those with mucho disposable income). Never mind that the golf courses are profitable. It's entirely symbolic.

[hogannut]

OK....here is some simple math, and I have used the lowest numbers to be as "fair" as possible.

So, lets' take an average of $50 per player which kind of accounts for the twilight and 9 hole rates, considering it is $52 weekday, and $59 weekend prime time rates. Assuming 4 somes are going out every 10 minutes, here are the numbers I come up with

$50 x 4 x 6 = $1200 per hour coming into the course. $50 per player, 4 in a group, 6 groups per hour.

Taking an average of 8 hours of playing time per day, which is VERY generous of me considering that June and July it is around 12 hours per day.

$1200 x 8 = $9600 per day

Assuming we play half the year, which is again VERY generous of me as it is more like 8 months the yearly income from the course is:

$9600 x 180 days = $ 1 728 000 yearly income.

So assuming DV made a profit of $500 000, their operating expenses for the year were $1 228 000. Call me crazy but this doesn't seem right.

Maybe I'm being to "simple" in my thinking here, but I was totally blown away when I read that DV only made a $500k profit. I'm not an accountant, but why do these numbers NOT make sense?

[RobertThompson]

I played golf with the mayor on Monday at Don Valley -- I think the city courses are safe, largely because they make the city money.

[kookie]

Hazel rocks!!!! The world needs more politicians like her!

I second that!

She's about the only politician that I respect (and the rest of the Mississauga council for that matter).

for that matter, many of the old courses in the city get HUGE tax breaks. Royal St. Georges, to name one, enjoys significant discounts on its tax status and also receives preferential hydro rates.

Hmmm, maybe it's because some the members at Royal St. Georges (and other older courses) have some pull with politicians. :rolleyes:

[el tigre]

So is Bethpage. Actually, Bethpage is owned by the state government.

[jasongolfer]

This story certainly ruined my day. I was just sitting down for a beer at home after work when I turned on the TV to see the Canadian Tax Payers Federation attacking the city's golf courses on CHCH News at 5:30. The taxpayers federation wants the city to close and sell the courses. I nearly spat out my beer.
The only courses I play are City ones. I can't afford anywhere else and I can't get anywhere because I don't have a car. Now I'm mad as hell and I want to make sure those courses stay open, or it's no more golf for me. And that's really not at all good.

Here's what we know:
(1) CFRB and the Taxpayer's Federation are ATTACKING the courses. They are suggesting the courses be closed, not city council.
(2) Mayor Miller (think of him what you will) is DEFENDING the courses. His budget chief, Shelley Carroll, was on CHCH arguing to keep the courses open. The Pro at Don Valley, Richardson, told me last summer that Miller supports the courses and wants to keep them open.
(3) The courses turn a profit. They covered their costs AND made $1 million for the city last year amongst them.
(4) Not all the employees are unionized. Just the greenskeepers, it seems. The starter at Dentonia told me recently he makes minimum wage.
(5) Don Valley, Humber Valley, and Dentonia are part of the flood control plan.
(6) Many cities have municipal golf courses. New York City, where land values and costs are higher than Toronto, operates 12 municipal courses and 5 driving ranges. The greens fees there are cheaper than here.
(7) As a rhetorical point, these courses are good for the environment. They preserve green space and trees, which offsets carbon emissions from cars. That doesn't matter to me too much, but it's a reason to keep the courses open.
(8) Privatizing the courses won't save money and won't make the coursws better. Especially not if the City rents them out like the taxpayer's federation supports. I'm not a businessman, but I know that no tenant is going to put $1 of capital into a property they don't own outright. That would be stupid. Also, I know a lot of privately-owned courses that are in terrible shape because the owners don't spend a penny on upkeep. They just put it all in their pocket; as much as they can, whenever they can. They'll jack up the green fees too. Ever played Annandale? Terrible condition, super high green fees.

Here's what I did this evening.
(1) I called Shelley Carroll and I told her that I was happy she was defending the courses and that I would volunteer to do anything to help.
(2) I called the Taxpayers Federation and told them to buzz off. I don't know that their :hush:'ing problem is, but I dont' appreciate the fact that they are taking a s:hush:t on me to prove some point. Why don't they support making those people over at St. George's actually PAY their taxes, instead of taking away the things that the rest of us, who can't afford a membership at St. George's. enjoy. I make less than $30 000 a year and I'm trying to keep a little money aside to have some fun. I love golf and can golf once and awhile at a city course, but that's all I can afford. I thought the taxpayer's federation stood for 'ordinary people.' Well, I'm an ordinary person and they're not helping me any.

[3whack]

I played golf with the mayor on Monday at Don Valley -- I think the city courses are safe, largely because they make the city money.

Robert, I just about choked when I saw this posting, wondering who the funny guy was posting this one. Then I saw your name, and realized that it must be true.

So, what did he shoot?

Did he take any preferred lies?

Any mulligans?

Did he pay for his round, or was he too much in debt?

Did he pay for a caddy, or was no one available because it would have been a city employee taking one of his mandatory 18 sick days?

Did he hit it to the left?

[RobertThompson]

Robert, I just about choked when I saw this posting, wondering who the funny guy was posting this one. Then I saw your name, and realized that it must be true.

So, what did he shoot?

Did he take any preferred lies?

Any mulligans?

Did he pay for his round, or was he too much in debt?

Did he pay for a caddy, or was no one available because it would have been a city employee taking one of his mandatory 18 sick days?

Did he hit it to the left?

First of all -- answering a previous question -- the city doesn't run the courses now -- they are leased out to a management group.

As for playing with Mr. Miller, he does indeed hit it to the left on occasion. He paid with his credit card (as did I) and he took $1 off me, which I suggested he put against the budget crisis.

All the rest of the story will appear in the book I'm working on for next spring. Aside from Miller I played with the likes of Ron Joyce, Danny Williams, Ralph Klein, Jim Balsillie and about 15 others....

[Twi-light Launcher]

If a CFRB host came on the air and said it was Friday, when in fact it was a Tuesday, CFRB listeners would call in and agree that it was a Friday.

My grandmother listens to CFRP faithfully and my all-time favourite moment in radio history was about 10 years ago when Bill Stephenson came on the air and announced that Walter Gretzky had died.

Of course, though ill at the time, the Great One's dad is still alive and well (knock on wood) and has spent the last 10 years promoting various charities across Canada.