A tale of two courses - Lionhead & Eagles Nest.....

[Anthony]

and how TGN protects their own....

I read the recent thread about from True North golfer who was a little ticked with Eagle's Nest.... Particularly the marshal.

Interesting for two points

1. While no one supported what happened to True North, a number of posters felt it important to note they got their yardage booklet.... Since I do not hit it 300+ yards, I've seldom needed them, though do like these booklets. They had to defend their good service at Eagle's Nest, and while no one supported the Marshal, many did the club.

2. The course was empty.... literally deserted.... Not surprised @ $200 a pop and there was at least one post earlier this year questioning it and the pricing.

So let's discuss this and Lionhead, both courses that frankly make their living on hosting corporate events and attract similar clientele.

Lionhead get's reamed over and over by some on TGN about their service, costs (course and F&B), percieved (and often true) slower play, but never get praised for actually posting some very good rates and specials, which yes does result in issues on the course, as in a heavily booked very tough course, which I too addressed.

This was brought up by a Kaneff Employee in the most recent thread (attack;)) on Lionhead.

So sorry if I appreciate Lionhead making a great golf course accessible, vs. Eagle's Nest that turns its nose up on those who dig into our pockets when we play.

[dekker]

Anthony I'm not sure you're being entirely fair here in your assessment of TGN members.
Most of us,if given the chance will grind our axes into any course.
Many of us here have played one or all Kaneff courses and our view is biased by our personal experience at that time. I am up and down like a yo-yo on them,and a number of other higher end courses and we should be because they promise service and they better deliver or word gets out.

I don't think 1/4,if that many, of the same guys have played Eagles Nest.
So,in all fairness it's hard to dump on a place few have experienced.
I doubt I will play there since I can play 4 of my favourite courses for the same cost and have a pint to spare.:rofl:

[Frank101]

I dont understand this post really? ....Is there any need to "ream" TGNers cuz thats what it seems is happening....people give their opinions...if you don't llike contradicting opinions maybe you shouldn't be on a chat board... something used to express DIFFERENT opinions and experiences. :confused:

[Anthony]

I dont understand this post really? ....Is there any need to "ream" TGNers cuz thats what it seems is happening....people give their opinions...if you don't llike contradicting opinions maybe you shouldn't be on a chat board something used to express DIFFERENT opinions and experiences. :confused:

I was having some fun and certainly there is no way everyone on TGN hates Lionhead and loves Eagle's Nest, I was just noting how there are a number who happily pile on Lionhead

I found it most interesting that Eagle's Nest was empty and did a bad job of customer service and Lionhead get's the short end of the stick on reviews, but has had some great deals this year and thus made it accessible for those ready to pay upto $100/round.

That was all..

[Leftygolfer30]

I dont understand this post really? ....Is there any need to "ream" TGNers cuz thats what it seems is happening....people give their opinions...if you don't llike contradicting opinions maybe you shouldn't be on a chat board something used to express DIFFERENT opinions and experiences. :confused:

I'm not really sure of the point of the post either Frank.

We all have our favorite courses and/or experiences and come here and relate stories for others of a kindred spirit as to what we like/dislike about said courses.

Personally, I have played Lionhead (both courses), Royal Ontario and Royal Niagara and enjoyed all three of them. Now typically, I have played them at either slow time periods or during corporate events so have never really had any bad experiences to speak of. That being said, I would certainly never discount anyone here' and their personal account of what happened to them while playing a Kaneff course. Again, I have never received any negative customer service BUT I have also never received any service worthy or remembering.

As for Eagle's Nest, I played it once last year (using a discounted rate that a friend at TD got) and did enjoy the course although the service was less than stellar. Part of our "package" included vouchers for the clubhouse or cart and the cart girl looked at us like we were the scum of the earth when we presented our coupons for food & beverages.

Again, not really sure of the point of the original post in this thread but knocking fellow TGN'ers doesn't seem like a very good way to get along in the future...just my humble opinion.

[Anthony]

I'm not really sure of the point of the post either Frank.

We all have our favorite courses and/or experiences and come here and relate stories for others of a kindred spirit as to what we like/dislike about said courses.

Personally, I have played Lionhead (both courses), Royal Ontario and Royal Niagara and enjoyed all three of them. Now typically, I have played them at either slow time periods or during corporate events so have never really had any bad experiences to speak of. That being said, I would certainly never discount anyone here' and their personal account of what happened to them while playing a Kaneff course. Again, I have never received any negative customer service BUT I have also never received any service worthy or remembering.

As for Eagle's Nest, I played it once last year (using a discounted rate that a friend at TD got) and did enjoy the course although the service was less than stellar. Part of our "package" included vouchers for the clubhouse or cart and the cart girl looked at us like we were the scum of the earth when we presented our coupons for food & beverages.

Again, not really sure of the point of the original post in this thread but knocking fellow TGN'ers doesn't seem like a very good way to get along in the future...just my humble opinion.

Honestly I was trying to really point out that for $200 you better do customer service out of the wazoo and for $100 I will ignore a lot of the "extras". Also I was trying to comment in a backhanded way that there is very little in the way of "customer service" charging $200 for a course that is deserted....

[Frank101]

arite Anthony I understand...I guess I just misunderstood your post because the very first thing I saw after your title (and usually the title is what the post is about) was the continuation which says "and how TGNers protect their own."

Like I said I apologize as it seems I didn't correctly understand your post.

[Going_Pro]

Anthony I'm not sure you're being entirely fair here in your assessment of TGN members.
Most of us,if given the chance will grind our axes into any course.
Many of us here have played one or all Kaneff courses and our view is biased by our personal experience at that time. I am up and down like a yo-yo on them,and a number of other higher end courses and we should be because they promise service and they better deliver or word gets out.

I don't think 1/4,if that many, of the same guys have played Eagles Nest.
So,in all fairness it's hard to dump on a place few have experienced.
I doubt I will play there since I can play 4 of my favourite courses for the same cost and have a pint to spare.:rofl:

Extremely well said Dekker..Cheers

I dont understand this post really? ....Is there any need to "ream" TGNers cuz thats what it seems is happening....people give their opinions...if you don't llike contradicting opinions maybe you shouldn't be on a chat board... something used to express DIFFERENT opinions and experiences. :confused:

very true... this is suppose to be a place where people can let others know about their experiences just to give people a heads up. :D

Honestly I was trying to really point out that for $200 you better do customer service out of the wazoo and for $100 I will ignore a lot of the "extras". Also I was trying to comment in a backhanded way that there is very little in the way of "customer service" charging $200 for a course that is deserted....


It shouldn't depend on how much you pay for a greens fee, customer service needs to be great @ any course @ any time. People need to understand that without customer service you will not last no matter what. Regardless of price, $200, $100, $50 or whatever course you play, customer service plays a vital role. I would rather play a course that is well maintained and 1/4 of the price if their customer service was great than somewhere expensive with less than satisfactory CS.

I feel that courses that charge much higher greens fees tend to have less than stellar customer service. In my opinion, people who work for these higher end course take it for granted thinking that they are better than their customers. It's a sad thing considering your customers are paying your salaries.

[Anthony]

arite Anthony I understand...I guess I just misunderstood your post because the very first thing I saw after your title (and usually the title is what the post is about) was the continuation which says "and how TGNers protect their own."

Like I said I apologize as it seems I didn't correctly understand your post.

I was having fun and usually do when I post and do like to stir the pot..;) However the point was more courses like Eagle's Nest should be taken to task about their prices and thus the expectations from their clients.

Yes Eagle's Nest can charge what they want and do as they wish, just thought Lionhead should be commended for offering some great green Fees.

Just in case I come off as a shill for Lionhead I will note Angus Glen too offers some decent discounts too, unfortunately it usually is in conjunction with foursomes (ie 4 for 3, as opposed to 2 for 50% off), along with Bond Head and Wooden Sticks.

I also put Copper Creek in the Eagle's Nest category of very minimal discounts (outside the Weekend afternoon)>

[Bellyhungry]

I think people here speak mostly from experience...when there have been enough bad experience shared by different people at one course and they choose to share their stories here, then the cumulative feedbacks point to one conclusion.

If it walks like a duck, quack like a duck.....

Personally, I have had great experience with the service staff at Lionhead the last few years. I just do not like Legend because of a few quirky design elements in my opinion.

[RobertThompson]

I was having fun and usually do when I post and do like to stir the pot..;) However the point was more courses like Eagle's Nest should be taken to task about their prices and thus the expectations from their clients.

Yes Eagle's Nest can charge what they want and do as they wish, just thought Lionhead should be commended for offering some great green Fees.

Just in case I come off as a shill for Lionhead I will note Angus Glen too offers some decent discounts too, unfortunately it usually is in conjunction with foursomes (ie 4 for 3, as opposed to 2 for 50% off), along with Bond Head and Wooden Sticks.

I also put Copper Creek in the Eagle's Nest category of very minimal discounts (outside the Weekend afternoon)>

Strikes me you can play Eagles Nest for $130 after noon on weekends -- and it is a vastly superior course to either of the Lionhead tracks.

As for it being "empty," that's really pretty doubtful. I've played there a handful of times this year and it was never empty. At its price point and target market, it does about 24,000 rounds per year. Which is about where the owners want it.

[JEBS]

I think that people contribute their experiences.. maybe their have been more poor experiences at LH than at EN. I have never played Eagles Nest and at $200 a pop I think of the three guest rounds that I can get at Clublink for that.

If I had the experience that TueNorth had I would rip into Eagles Nest just as fast... actually I would rip them even more since my ripping is directly related to the price of round.

If I had my cart turned off without explanation or at least a warning for what seemd like an honest mistake I would be much more venomous than TrueNorth was.. and if the Marshal came out at me being agressive and un-professional I would certainly return his agression in the same manner I would as Emeril would say.. "Kick it up a notch!!"

But I have not played EN so I cannot yet judge them.

[golferboy]

Anyone care to comment on the Pro Shop Customer Service at Lionhead....I am referring to the recent treatment of 12 TGNers....

[jayda]

Anyone care to comment on the Pro Shop Customer Service at Lionhead....I am referring to the recent treatment of 12 TGNers....

:shhh:
yeah that was BAAAADDDDD! :eek:

[corchard]

Anyone care to comment on the Pro Shop Customer Service at Lionhead....I am referring to the recent treatment of 12 TGNers....


Lionheads policy is a little stupid. If you tee off the first hole then you can't get a rain check. Not everyone was informed about the policy when we paid or when we teed off. Hey we're golf nuts we'll play in anything. Where the policy failed is that the big puddle in the middle of the first green, sencond green... made the course unplayable for us as a tournament. Hey even Flemington park will close the course if it is unplayable.

The pro shop's guys attitude was a little snarky. I chalk it up to having to deal with hundreds of golfers who were all pissed off because it was raining. All he needed to say was our rain check policy is A but for you guys let let me confer with the Vice president. It might take a while as everyone is very busy right now. In the end all was well as we got our rain check.

[kaneffgolf]

The good people over at Eagles Nest run a fine operation. It seems that the negative experience described in another recent thread was directly related to the conduct of one marshal. In no way am I condoning aggressive or rude behaviour from staff. However, Eagles Nest probably has over 200 employees. It is unfair to penalize the whole organization and all its staff members, who by in large do a great job, simply because one staff member messed up. Human resources are “human”. People mess up. Who knows, maybe this marshal just found out that his wife had cancer, and he needed to vent his frustration. Surely this service industry member does not normally act like this, or he wouldn’t still be employed.

People do not work in the golf industry because of the money (which is generally low) or because of free golf (most employees can count on one hand the number of times they have played in a season). They work in the industry because they enjoy the interaction with clients and coworkers. In most cases these individuals give outstanding service. Sometimes, like in any industry, you get a bad egg, or a good employee has a bad day. I know many of the staff over at Eagles Nest, and they, like the staff at Kaneff and virtually every other golf organization, try very hard to give the best service possible.

[hoganapexplus]

Anthony, if you are going to "have a little fun" then don't be suprised if people take "a little" offense to what you say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It sounded like TN got hosed on his round and that is what he reported. Lionhead does not factor into that equation.
As for the raincheck policy at LH, that seems ill planned as there are lots of times that you tee off and rain comes in later, especailly if it is a slow round you may only have 4 holes in 1 and 1/2 later, but it sounds like things were made right.

[Going_Pro]

Who knows, maybe this marshal just found out that his wife had cancer, and he needed to vent his frustration. Surely this service industry member does not normally act like this, or he wouldn’t still be employed.



This is a great point, but you know what, work is work, home is home, if you can't stay professional @ work because of something at home, that's what vacation days are for or sick days, employers should understand that and know that employees need to seperate the two and offer guidance and days off is need be.

I understand your point, I really do, but I don't think that should be an excuse for being rude or disrespectful to customers.

[corchard]

As for the raincheck policy at LH, that seems ill planned as there are lots of times that you tee off and rain comes in later, especailly if it is a slow round you may only have 4 holes in 1 and 1/2 later, but it sounds like things were made right.

I probably wasn't clear. If you tee off in the rain then their general policy is no raincheck. If you tee off and it's not raining then starts to rain later then there is another policy.

[Anthony]

Anthony, if you are going to "have a little fun" then don't be suprised if people take "a little" offense to what you say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It sounded like TN got hosed on his round and that is what he reported. Lionhead does not factor into that equation.
As for the raincheck policy at LH, that seems ill planned as there are lots of times that you tee off and rain comes in later, especailly if it is a slow round you may only have 4 holes in 1 and 1/2 later, but it sounds like things were made right.

I was responding to 2 things and am not offended or bothered by anything you say or anyone (just the way I am and this is not a nasty comment on my part)..... The defense of some for Eagle's Nest and the point that Lionhead comes under the microscope here a fair bit.

Strikes me you can play Eagles Nest for $130 after noon on weekends -- and it is a vastly superior course to either of the Lionhead tracks.

As for it being "empty," that's really pretty doubtful. I've played there a handful of times this year and it was never empty. At its price point and target market, it does about 24,000 rounds per year. Which is about where the owners want it.

Read the OP.... True North says the course was deserted Monday afternoon. Also read earlier threads as to how quiet the course is. The fact Eagle's Nest get's 24,000 rounds I'm sure is fine, but not supported by the other posts is it?

$130 Weekend Afternoons is no bargain, in fact this is when all these A courses are empty...... Robert I read and respect your knowledge about golf, but you really have been spoiled as to your ability to play almost anywhere and everywhere. I seem to remember an earlier post where someone lamented not been able to sniff some private courses, no matter what he did, and you matter of factly responded to him how easy it is to play them..... Not everyone has your connections and invites and have to slum @ Lionhead when they have a deep discount special.....

[corchard]

You've also got to remember that at the premium public courses the tee times are usually spread out to 10 min: Copper creek, Eagles Nest, Bond Head :). This gives an individual 4some a feeling of seclusion. When driving into Bond Head I've often looked out at the south back nine thinking the course was empty (you can see every hole) to find out that the course was in fact packed by the tee sheet. You pay a $$ premium for 10 min tee times.

[coe14]

Strikes me you can play Eagles Nest for $130 after noon on weekends -- and it is a vastly superior course to either of the Lionhead tracks.

As for it being "empty," that's really pretty doubtful. I've played there a handful of times this year and it was never empty. At its price point and target market, it does about 24,000 rounds per year. Which is about where the owners want it.

24,000 rounds - no way, unless they were in the middle of the night. I drive by the course 10 times a day. I wouldn't believe it if the owners and their financial auditors showed up at my door tonight with their books.

No weekday twilight rate? Are the owners morons?

[RobertThompson]

24,000 rounds - no way, unless they were in the middle of the night. I drive by the course 10 times a day. I wouldn't believe it if the owners and their financial auditors showed up at my door tonight with their books.

No weekday twilight rate? Are the owners morons?

All I can say is what I know to be true -- and just because you drive by "10 times a day," doesn't mean you have any indication of what is true in the matter. Similarly, I don't really care if other posts indicate the course was "empty" on a Monday afternoon. Doesn't shock me, but it also doesn't mean I'm wrong. I was there recently during the Canadian Open and the club had done nearly a week of 200 rounds per day. Idle speculation is still speculation.

Few of you understand the model that is at work at places like Angus, Eagles Nest, Copper Creek. It isn't based on public play. That isn't meant as a slight to any of you.

It is based on corporate tournaments rounds, many of which pay at least full fare, sometimes more, to close a course for a period of time.

At any of the above courses it makes more sense to have 20-25,000 rounds (though Angus and Copper do a few more) at a higher green fee than to have more rounds at a lower fee. Just do the math. At a higher price point/lower round cost, other costs for a club also come down. Higher traffic comes with higher expenses. If a club can do 24,000 rounds at an average fee of $140 (including tournament discounts and the like), it makes more sense than doing 30,000 rounds at $90.

It is just part of the business -- like it or not.

That said, I am not that far removed from the time when I recall playing Glen Abbey at $119 at a spring rate as a treat. I played it twice a year (once in spring and once in fall) and this was nearly 10 years ago. It was worth it in my mind. I think, given 10 years have past, Eagles Nest is worth a treat once or twice a year at $135. But that's just my take. Is it a bargain? No. Is it a treat most would enjoy? Yes.

As for this yardage book notion, sometimes courses run out. Sometimes people need to request them because they haven't been provided, maybe just due to an oversight. But yardage books, bag tags, GPS, fancy halfway houses, free range balls and the like are one of the reasons courses like Angus/Eagles/Copper cost as much as they do to play. All of these come with costs of a few bucks a piece (sometimes more) and inflate the overall green fee.

Of course you can skip all of this and just play Osprey Valley's twilight -- I used to do it all the time.

[pudubny]

24,000 rounds - no way, unless they were in the middle of the night. I drive by the course 10 times a day. I wouldn't believe it if the owners and their financial auditors showed up at my door tonight with their books.

No weekday twilight rate? Are the owners morons?

No, just successful businessmen who haven't discovered the treasure trove of MBA classes offered on this free forum.
Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it.

Do they really need to lie about their rounds played.
24000 rounds is not alot, less than many private clubs in Toronto.
Do the math, at least 180 golf days a year, thats about 130 golfers a day, only 34 groups. That's about 5 hours of steady tee-times per day. They could easily do that.
It's been at least that busy on my visits.


As for the cost, their is no point in complaining or complimenting anyone on twilight discounts, it simply responding to market conditions like available margins and supply and demand.
Lionhead lowered prices because demand at $175 was very low.
Eagles Nest can command that high margin sale because it is still new. Same with Copper. They do not need to discount.
As courses age, the shine comes off and demand for rounds will decline, at that point they will need to change something or lower prices.
Lionhead lowered prices. Angus Glen hosted the Canadian Open twice to help enhance it's perceived value to customers.
If not for hosting the Open, AG would likely be faced with lowering prices as well.
So you may have to wait a few years before Eagles lowers prices or offers 4 for 2 coupons. That and hope they do not host a Canadian Open.
But the idea that they charge "too much" or are in some way not catering to the masses because they don't offer a reasonable twilight fee is simply not part of the business plan.
That's my rant. Now off to Muskoka!
Pud.

[coe14]

If they had a weekday twilight rate - say $85 after 5:00 p.m., I would have played with one of my work colleagues at least 5 times this year (I work in the summer). That's $850 I spent elsewhere. After 3:00 p.m. during the week you could fire cannons off there.

Heck of a business plan.

Some of these high end courses would do well (better) if they they listened to folks like me.

[Bellyhungry]

Not sure if this add to anything....

I have been trying to get one of my staff trying to book a round for the last 3 weeks and he was constantly told that they (Eagle's Nest) were fully booked except for some undesirable tee off times.

Meanwhile, I keep hearing from here that the course is 'deserted' or that the parking lot is always empty when they drive by there.

The two pieces of info above simply don't add up.

So my current theory is that they have under ground parking and that it is the site of the School of Hogwarts where the players are given one of those invisible cloaks...