Golf Course Reviews (save the f and b report)

[PatrickM]

I am a young aspiring golf course architect from the GTA. I really appreciate this section of this website as there are many courses that i have not seen but am interested in learning more about. However I am discouraged by the amount of emphasis placed on conditioning and food services included in most golf course reviews. Can we not get past the lack of moist towelettes, mediocre burgers and, heaven forbid, slowish green speeds and discuss the factors that actually matter. Case and point if i told you I once had a lousy burger at Hamilton golf and cc, are you really going to avoid the course next time you have a chance to play it. Of course not. Maybe im crazy or just alone in thinking that course reviews should comment more on the strategies of a course, the actual make up of the course (green contouring, scenery, bunkers, etc.) As far as commenting on conditioning it just seems to short sighted, if i tell you a course sucks because it was dry and then it rains for a week....is that course awesome now. If a course sucks because the greens are slow and bumpy....wait to you see what happens when they cut and roll them....the course will turn instantly amazing.

I realize I have an obvious bias when it comes to golf course reviews but I would love to hear a good argument FOR including peripheral factors as the primary substance of a course review.

Perhaps we should have a seperate section on the website for service and conditioning reviews. I just can t stand to hear another review that slams a course because the marshall was a meany..GET SERIOUS...who cares.

[bigbertha]

When someone reviews a golf course, I like to know what they like besides the actual course. And if you are really getting into the business, I got news for you. Amenities go a long way in helping the course make a profit. People will spend more if the services are top notch and the environment is enjoyable. Case in point arguably Angus Glen is one of the most successful golf course in the country. Why do you think they can charge what they do when most people think they are overpriced? Services, amenities go along way in getting them where they are today in 10 years. Just my 2 cents.

[PatrickM]

I appreciate the reply...I hope the original post doesnt come off as too bitter, its not really meant that way...just hoping to start a conversation on something i feel stongly about. As far as amenities justifying higher greens fees...i would love to see fewer amenities and lower greens fees...but I understand the econmics may not always work out. Also I am not necessarily saying that golf courses should have poor service and poor conditioning....i just dont think those should be a major part of a course review...

[JEBS]

I imagine that many on this board would not mind less amenities for lower green fees.. that being said when we fork out our hard earned leisure money and for some that amount is becoming more and more sparse I imagine many would want to see a return on investment.

If a course sucks because the greens are slow and bumpy....wait to you see what happens when they cut and roll them....the course will turn instantly amazing.


Why was this not done before I paid my $$$ I could not give a cr@p if the course is amazing four days later.. I am not there!!

if i tell you a course sucks because it was dry and then it rains for a week

If we are having this kind of summer (drought) I will not be so critical.. If it is a decent summer with fair weather and the course is baked then I think the super is a little off or his owner is cheap!

I too enjoy the design (makeup) of the course and that is why certain course architects have such a loyal following .. but if that amazingly designed course is put in the hands of complete muppets than the whole experience turns into wondering how good the course could actually be if the crew were on their game!!

I have had some great rounds on some great tracks completley destroyed because of either an a$$ of a Marshall or proshop associates who treat you with insouciancey as if you should be honoured to be allowed to play their course.

Many people on this forum have a decent idea about the makeup of many of the courses discussed on this forum. People CHOOSE to write about their experience sometimes it is just a way to vent sometimes it is to caution others to be aware of some of the practices of some courses. You will find many good reviews on this forum as well.. but as the saying goes..

Make a customer happy and they will tell 5 people
make a customer un-happy and they will tell many many many more!;)

I am not trying to be harsh.. and BTW Welcome to the forum !!

If you are looking for some great course reviews check out Robert Thompson's blog

[PatrickM]

that is a great point about many people posting their experience at a course as a opposed to posting a course review....in that case i can understand mentioning service etc.....maybe labeling a post as a course review or course experience might help....for example i will not likely be playing heron point any time soon so the current speed of the greens or taste of the food just doesnt do much for me....however i am very interested in hearing about the merits of individual holes and the quality of the design....

[Frank101]

whaaaaaa?...are you serious?...I only go to the golf course to eat what is the point of the review then?


I mean...what else do you do at a golf course?
:rofl:

[ontario]

You're telling me if you go a course and it takes 6 hours to play, the marshal is drunk and there is a dead cockroach in your plate of fries, that's okay because the course layout was great?

Take it to another arena - restaurants. Let's say the food is outstanding but you have to wait an hour to be served, the place is filthy and the wait staff are rude. Well, if the place is charging $6 for an entree and I know ahead of time what to expect, I might go for a cheap meal. My wife, on the other hand, would never go, no matter how cheap.

So for some people, it matters. I read the reviews and filter out what what is relevant and irrelevant for me. I kind of take that approach to the whole Internet.

[golferboy]

Welcome to the site......the site is designed to allow everyone who wants to join to voice their opinions on any golf related topic, including golf course reviews...as the majority of us are public players, we look at all aspects of a golf course, including service, facilities, and food/beverage because thats what the high green fees pay for.
I'm sure a majority of us get out once a week and pay $75-100 to play a round at a nice course and be treated well, and enjoy the 'experience', which is not just the golf. While I do agree that when I go to a new course for the first time, all I really care about is the course layout, and conditioning, there are many other factors that impact your round and experience. There is nothing worse than going to a course which is in amazing shape, and provides the golfer with a challenging round, and then have to deal with rude staff, marshalls that dont do their job and make it a 6 hour round.

While you may provide us with a different viewpoint because you are a 'aspiring golf architect/course designer', the majority of us look for more than what is 'green'.
I am a young aspiring golf course architect from the GTA. I really appreciate this section of this website as there are many courses that i have not seen but am interested in learning more about. However I am discouraged by the amount of emphasis placed on conditioning and food services included in most golf course reviews. Can we not get past the lack of moist towelettes, mediocre burgers and, heaven forbid, slowish green speeds and discuss the factors that actually matter. Case and point if i told you I once had a lousy burger at Hamilton golf and cc, are you really going to avoid the course next time you have a chance to play it. Of course not. Maybe im crazy or just alone in thinking that course reviews should comment more on the strategies of a course, the actual make up of the course (green contouring, scenery, bunkers, etc.) As far as commenting on conditioning it just seems to short sighted, if i tell you a course sucks because it was dry and then it rains for a week....is that course awesome now. If a course sucks because the greens are slow and bumpy....wait to you see what happens when they cut and roll them....the course will turn instantly amazing.

I realize I have an obvious bias when it comes to golf course reviews but I would love to hear a good argument FOR including peripheral factors as the primary substance of a course review.

Perhaps we should have a seperate section on the website for service and conditioning reviews. I just can t stand to hear another review that slams a course because the marshall was a meany..GET SERIOUS...who cares.

[Bellyhungry]

What golf courses have you taken part in designing? We can go play it and let you know what we think.

[xcLusfx]

What golf courses have you taken part in designing? We can go play it and let you know what we think.
Was just about to say that...

"The most amazing course layout can ruin a golfer's day, simply with slow play & Bad customer service"

[hoganapexplus]

[quote=bigbertha]When someone reviews a golf course, I like to know what they like besides the actual course. And if you are really getting into the business, I got news for you. Amenities go a long way in helping the course make a profit. People will spend more if the services are top notch and the environment is enjoyable.

Agreed, the layout, routing etc are all part of the experience but if the play is so slow as to be painful, rude staff etc, the coure will not get a good review.

[Going_Pro]

I imagine that many on this board would not mind less amenities for lower green fees.. that being said when we fork out our hard earned leisure money and for some that amount is becoming more and more sparse I imagine many would want to see a return on investment.



Why was this not done before I paid my $$$ I could not give a cr@p if the course is amazing four days later.. I am not there!!



If we are having this kind of summer (drought) I will not be so critical.. If it is a decent summer with fair weather and the course is baked then I think the super is a little off or his owner is cheap!

I too enjoy the design (makeup) of the course and that is why certain course architects have such a loyal following .. but if that amazingly designed course is put in the hands of complete muppets than the whole experience turns into wondering how good the course could actually be if the crew were on their game!!

I have had some great rounds on some great tracks completley destroyed because of either an a$$ of a Marshall or proshop associates who treat you with insouciancey as if you should be honoured to be allowed to play their course.

Many people on this forum have a decent idea about the makeup of many of the courses discussed on this forum. People CHOOSE to write about their experience sometimes it is just a way to vent sometimes it is to caution others to be aware of some of the practices of some courses. You will find many good reviews on this forum as well.. but as the saying goes..

Make a customer happy and they will tell 5 people
make a customer un-happy and they will tell many many many more!;)

I am not trying to be harsh.. and BTW Welcome to the forum !!

If you are looking for some great course reviews check out Robert Thompson's blog

Jeb's, always great replies couldn't have said it better!

Cheers



I realize I have an obvious bias when it comes to golf course reviews but I would love to hear a good argument FOR including peripheral factors as the primary substance of a course review.

Perhaps we should have a seperate section on the website for service and conditioning reviews. I just can t stand to hear another review that slams a course because the marshall was a meany..GET SERIOUS...who cares.


lol.. no comment..

don't forget Cart girls are probably the most important, if the course is crappy, layout is crap and the food sucks... as long as there is a hot cart girl with the name "Anastasia" then who cares abotu anythign else! hahah

[PatrickM]

This is a slight change of subject but I think the emphasis we put on service and other amenities is largely to blame for the increasing price of greens fees. I personally would much rather a 40$ dollar greens fee with no yardage book, towel, range balls, breakfast etc as opposed to 100$ greens fee that included them. Perhaps i have this wrong but in my opinion if golf is going to stay popular it is going to have to get cheaper.

The same goes for course condtioning, the more we demand perfect conditions the more we pay in greens fees. I could go on but in short...wouldnt you rather pay 40$ (or less) for a decent course rather than 150$ for a greener, fancier one. ( What if you want to bring your family along, better take out a loan first.) Opinions?

[skt07]

I am a young aspiring golf course architect from the GTA. I really appreciate this section of this website as there are many courses that i have not seen but am interested in learning more about. However I am discouraged by the amount of emphasis placed on conditioning and food services included in most golf course reviews. Can we not get past the lack of moist towelettes, mediocre burgers and, heaven forbid, slowish green speeds and discuss the factors that actually matter. Case and point if i told you I once had a lousy burger at Hamilton golf and cc, are you really going to avoid the course next time you have a chance to play it. Of course not. Maybe im crazy or just alone in thinking that course reviews should comment more on the strategies of a course, the actual make up of the course (green contouring, scenery, bunkers, etc.) As far as commenting on conditioning it just seems to short sighted, if i tell you a course sucks because it was dry and then it rains for a week....is that course awesome now. If a course sucks because the greens are slow and bumpy....wait to you see what happens when they cut and roll them....the course will turn instantly amazing.

I realize I have an obvious bias when it comes to golf course reviews but I would love to hear a good argument FOR including peripheral factors as the primary substance of a course review.

Perhaps we should have a seperate section on the website for service and conditioning reviews. I just can t stand to hear another review that slams a course because the marshall was a meany..GET SERIOUS...who cares.

Perhaps you can start by offering us an example of the type of course review you would like to see here.

Right now, it just sounds like you're complaining. How about contributing?

[PatrickM]

I havent posted a review that is a fair point. Here is a link to the type of reviews that i would like to see. I didnt write them but i would love to see this type of review for GTA courses and I will definetly attempt to write one next time a play a GTA course.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/COURSES_BY_COUNTRY.html

These reviews are more like essays and i understand not everyone has the time to describe each hole at length. However the material covered in these reviews is AWESOME.

I think these reviews have more lasting value because the information in them still applies whether its been a rainy season, dry season or an unfriendly marshall season.

[ontario]

This is a slight change of subject but I think the emphasis we put on service and other amenities is largely to blame for the increasing price of greens fees. I personally would much rather a 40$ dollar greens fee with no yardage book, towel, range balls, breakfast etc as opposed to 100$ greens fee that included them. Perhaps i have this wrong but in my opinion if golf is going to stay popular it is going to have to get cheaper.

The same goes for course condtioning, the more we demand perfect conditions the more we pay in greens fees. I could go on but in short...wouldnt you rather pay 40$ (or less) for a decent course rather than 150$ for a greener, fancier one. ( What if you want to bring your family along, better take out a loan first.) Opinions?

If that would actually happen, then I'd be very happy. But, you know and I know there will never be decent $40 golf in Toronto. Take away the amenities, you can't turn a $150 green fee into a $40 green fee.

Golf is a competitive business in the GTA so the courses do what any business would do - try to differentiate. They do this with little add-ons. Do they drive up green fees? Sure, but by 200%? I doubt it. Maybe 15-20%.

If you want bare bones golf without the frills, Don Valley provides it. And what do they charge? Not $40.

[wannabe]

Perhaps we should have a seperate section on the website for service and conditioning reviews. I just can t stand to hear another review that slams a course because the marshall was a meany..GET SERIOUS...who cares.
Perhaps if you had asked people to include more comments about the course in addition to comments about food and service you would have gotten a more positive response. You should just skip through the parts that don't interest you. There are so many members here that to ask everyone to write reviews that cater specifically to your needs alone seems a bit presumptuous.

[PatrickM]

Fair enough wannabe...I agree that not every one values the same thing in a course review. I read the post about highland links being worse than bigwin due to green speeds and i suppose I over reacted. I still feel very strongly that the most important part of a golf course is the golf course. But your point about including something for everyone is valid.

Again i really do apreciate the course reviews posted here as they are one of the best ways to learn about new courses. But dont you think this website sometime puts a little too much emphasis on conditioning and service? Maybe its just me.

[planet]

This is the golf course review section. Its up to the forum members to decide what criteria they want to include as part of the discussion.

If conditioning is important to golfers (as it is to me), who are you to say they're wrong?

If you want to focus on things like routing/shot values/course strategies, feel free to start your own thread on those topics and anyone who's interested can chime in.

ps. The golf club atlas site is a good one. No argument there.

[JEBS]

Again i really do apreciate the course reviews posted here as they are one of the best ways to learn about new courses. But dont you think this website sometime puts a little too much emphasis on conditioning and service? Maybe its just me

This website probably has more consumers on it (people who participate in the golfing not the development) so we rate the experience in respect to what we paid. If I am at a restaraunt and someone meticulously crafts my meal heck say Thomas Keller made my dinner and used the finest ingrediants on the planet and the waiter is an a$$ who treats me like I am a bother and I am served a crappy 2 buck chuck to go whith my meal with plastic utensils while some Black Sabath tribute Polka fusion band is playing three feet behind me.. do you think I will only notice the perfection of the food without the clouded judgement of the surrounding experience ?

This is a slight change of subject but I think the emphasis we put on service and other amenities is largely to blame for the increasing price of greens fees. I personally would much rather a 40$ dollar greens fee with no yardage book, towel, range balls, breakfast etc as opposed to 100$ greens fee that included them. Perhaps i have this wrong but in my opinion if golf is going to stay popular it is going to have to get cheaper.

The same goes for course condtioning, the more we demand perfect conditions the more we pay in greens fees. I could go on but in short...wouldnt you rather pay 40$ (or less) for a decent course rather than 150$ for a greener, fancier one. ( What if you want to bring your family along, better take out a loan first.) Opinions?

Not to sound harsh again.. but if you plan to get into this business without a handle on what the majority of golfers want or expect in a round of golf than I am certain that you will have a very stressfull future. The leisure/luxury economy is now based on the whole experience and people will pay top dollar for that ...IF they receive a fair experience for dollars spent. I really do not see a top tier golf course surviving on $40 rounds

[Jeffc]

the course layout, while important, is one of many factors that decide where I spend my $. Given two equally decent layouts at similar prices, if one has better conditioing, nicer staff, faster rounds, etc. guess which one I am going to play?

Yes layout is important, but so is price. One course might be a great layout but cost $150. The other might be a decent layout and cost $50. Guess which one I will play more often?

People are spending their hard earned cash when playing a course so yes, all of these things need to be considered in a course review. After all, the review is useless to me otherwise.

[Frank101]

did someone say food? :$

[Golfing in Ottawa]

Here is the criteria Scoregolf uses for their Top 100 ranking.......

http://www.scoregolf.com/rankings/top100/rules-regulations.cfm

"Panellists were also asked to rate courses on pace of place, service, and value."

I would assume service would include everything from Bag drop attendants, Pro Shop staff, Cart girls, and " f & b".

When I plunk down $100 - $180 to play a round at a resort course I expect everything to be top notch and that includes the "f & b".........
Its the entire experience and only takes one "bad apple" in the chain to make a person not come back...........

[Frank101]

I think the scoregolf article forgot to mention hype and partiality.

[pudubny]

This website probably has more consumers on it (people who participate in the golfing not the development) so we rate the experience in respect to what we paid. If I am at a restaraunt and someone meticulously crafts my meal heck say Thomas Keller made my dinner and used the finest ingrediants on the planet and the waiter is an a$$ who treats me like I am a bother and I am served a crappy 2 buck chuck to go whith my meal with plastic utensils while some Black Sabath tribute Polka fusion band is playing three feet behind me.. do you think I will only notice the perfection of the food without the clouded judgement of the surrounding experience ?



Not to sound harsh again.. but if you plan to get into this business without a handle on what the majority of golfers want or expect in a round of golf than I am certain that you will have a very stressfull future. The leisure/luxury economy is now based on the whole experience and people will pay top dollar for that ...IF they receive a fair experience for dollars spent. I really do not see a top tier golf course surviving on $40 rounds

He on the architectural side JEBS, so long as the developer doesn't want to put the clubhouse on the best spot for a redan hole, I think he will do fine.
He worries about the course, the developer/owner worries about how good looking the cart girls are.


He has a point, if it does apply here it on the priority golf nuts put on things other than the actual golf. The Augusta Syndrome applies here as does the Private Club for a Day angle.
Patrick would rather pay $40 for a interesting course with below average conditioning and a trailer for a clubhouse than $160.00 for a poor layout with all the amenities and a Augusta like green. Many on this forum would not.
Osprey is the perfect example, in the "trailer" days people complained about the experience, but the golf is frankly difficult to beat anywhere in Toronto.
Pud

[Bellyhungry]

Maybe we should conduct a survey here to find out the preference of the people here.

I personally could care less about the fancy clubhouse and prestine condition because I know someone has to pay for them. But I can understand private club members expecting bang for their bucks.

[BeLikeBen]

The expense of golfing in the GTA is a joke. I agree with Bellyhungry - I could care less if courses had a clubhouse with all the amenities. If I were a private club member or at a top resort then yes, those things become integral to your golfing "experience". But otherwise give me an interesting, affordable course; I don't even expect the conditioning to be Augusta-like.

Making golf more affordable should be one of the top considerations of course architects and developers. Look at a country like Sweden where they have probably an even shorter season than us yet produce way more top players that all attribute it to cheap courses.

My wife is from New Zealand and the courses there are dirt cheap to play. Aside from a few newer, American developed courses (ie. Kauri Cliffs, Cape Kidnappers), a typical NZ course is only about $25 to play. Even in Auckland, where the real estate market is relatively equal to GTA, you could be a member at Titirangi (an Alistair Mackenzie course) for less than a year at Don Valley!

Point is that there are many countries where golf is an everymans pursuit, facing similar circumstances to GTA golf (limited season, land etc.).

[mccho]

Golf courses for me, someone in their 20's/30's (not to say i represent the voice of the majority), needs these key points to have me coming back over and over again:

1) Hot cart girls. Makes me feel good buying beer and gives me a good excuse too. Grey Silo gets two thumbs up!

2) Good conditioned fairways and greens. As long as I'm not in danger of injuring my wrists by taking a divot (some courses are built on concrete) and as long as the greens don't make my ball do the Mexican jumping bean, I'm good either way.

3) Tree lines and/or nestled in a nature-oriented view. Part of the golf experience for me is playing at a nice and quiet course.

4) Fair prices... LOL good luck with that in GTA.

[coe14]

[quote=PatrickM] Can we not get past the lack of moist towelettes, mediocre burgers and, heaven forbid, slowish green speeds and discuss the factors that actually matter.

You are sorely mistaken if you think quality of greens is unimportant. Without greens that roll true and consistent, you can't play any kind of meaningful match. I'd far rather play a course with a mediocre layout with great greens than a course with a fabulous layout and crappy greens. How a course plays is more important than how it looks.

And folks like to talk about their experience with service (and conditioning) because it can vary over time and it is within the course's power to change quickly. The layout is the layout - I've played almost every course in the GTA West - so discussing shot values on holes is not meaningful - I know the course.

Any new course that opens nearby, I make a point of playing.

[fins & skins]

I could not agree more with PatrickM.

Keep that mentality when you start interviewing for jobs you'll do fine!

[Golfing in Ottawa]

I think the scoregolf article forgot to mention hype and partiality.

Ask more about it from our forum friend Mr. Thompson, he is on the selection panel..........

http://www.scoregolf.com/rankings/top100/2006-panel.cfm

also noticed Rod Black is on there...............:eek: :rofl:

[RobertThompson]

Ask more about it from our forum friend Mr. Thompson, he is on the selection panel..........

http://www.scoregolf.com/rankings/top100/2006-panel.cfm

also noticed Rod Black is on there...............:eek: :rofl:

I don't recall seeing a "hype" category....

That said I often disagree with some of the results of the Score ratings, even though I participate in the panel. However, it continues to improve.

ItalFrank typically does a pretty good job of his commentary and reviews -- Frank, what courses do you think generate a higher position because of these "other" factors?

[dekker]

Patrick raises a good point. Most personal reviews accentuate some form of disappointment whether it's a slow round,an ignorant marshal or rude staff.
It's primarily about the peripherals other than the course itself.
I fully understand that at 180 a pop you want the total package but isn't the reason you went there the course?
If it's not a $180 playing course,screw the amenities,because I can do much better off-course for those features anyway.
I look for fair and well conditioned greens above all. The layout should be varied enough and tough enough to make the green a welcome sight.
A cart tart? Just another empty promise that does zilch for my game.

As for the course hype in magazines? They are not my courses,and seldom are they of courses I will be able to reach to play. I read them for entertainment value.

[Golfing in Ottawa]

I would say that in Canada, Fairmont does a good job of bringing as "close as possible" the entire package to the golfer. From Accomodations, Restaurants, Service (From the bag cart staff, Hotel, course staff, waiters, doormen) Terrific courses from The Algonquin in New Brunswick; Le Manoir Richelieu in the Charlevoix Region of Quebec; Chateau Montebello in Quebec; and out West, the Rockies courses of Jasper Park Lodge; Banff Springs; and Chateau Whistler.

Intawest also seems to have it figured out as well. Certainly no complaints with Le Geant and Le Diable in Tremblant, and great reviews from the other three Canadian courses of Raven at Lora Bay, Monterra, and Greywolf in BC.
Intrawest accomodations and service excellent as well.

When I play these resort courses, no I am not just there to play golf but am enjoying the "entire package".