Muscle or Cavity backs?

[cldale]

Hi,

I am a pretty high handicapper who just started playing again this year after about 10-12 years off the course. I have been immediately bitten by the bug and started taking lessons and playing/practising regularly.

I am looking to get a set of fitted irons to replace my existing cheapo dunlops bought from sportchek for $200. I am 6'3" and have been told multiple times by multiple people that I should invest in properly fitted clubs if I am going to continue.

I am not really inclined to buy the latest and greatest new thing, so the next set of clubs i buy I'd like to be my last, or at least, to last for a long long time.

In that vein, I was wondering whether anyone has an opinion about whether I should get cavity back or muscle back irons? I really want to improve and get better and lower my handicap as much as possible, and my thought was that the additional feedback I'd get from muscleback's would probably reinforce good habits better than cavity backs.

Is this unrealistic? Are muscle back irons much harder to play with than cavity backs, or are the differences in forgiveness and ball flight not actually that major?

Money isn't really too much of an issue here, I'd prefer to spend good money on a set I will really enjoy and keep for a long time rather than spend less on a set I will want to replace in several years anyhow.

I realize this is a pretty tough question to give a definitive answer on, but any opinions or thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers.

[Jeffc]

buy cavity backs. :)

[warreng]

Hi,

I am a pretty high handicapper who just started playing again this year after about 10-12 years off the course. I have been immediately bitten by the bug and started taking lessons and playing/practising regularly.

I am looking to get a set of fitted irons to replace my existing cheapo dunlops bought from sportchek for $200. I am 6'3" and have been told multiple times by multiple people that I should invest in properly fitted clubs if I am going to continue.

I am not really inclined to buy the latest and greatest new thing, so the next set of clubs i buy I'd like to be my last, or at least, to last for a long long time.

In that vein, I was wondering whether anyone has an opinion about whether I should get cavity back or muscle back irons? I really want to improve and get better and lower my handicap as much as possible, and my thought was that the additional feedback I'd get from muscleback's would probably reinforce good habits better than cavity backs.

Is this unrealistic? Are muscle back irons much harder to play with than cavity backs, or are the differences in forgiveness and ball flight not actually that major?

Money isn't really too much of an issue here, I'd prefer to spend good money on a set I will really enjoy and keep for a long time rather than spend less on a set I will want to replace in several years anyhow.

I realize this is a pretty tough question to give a definitive answer on, but any opinions or thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers.

I'll give you this piece of advice. Play what you're comfortable with and don't get caught up in what kind of club (muscleback or cavity) people "think" you should play.

At the end of the day, the game is for your enjoyment and if you enjoy hitting musclebacks, hit musclebacks. Likewise for cavities. I mean, you're more than likely not going to go pro or earn your living playing golf, so do what's fun for you.

I play to about a 15 and a couple of seasons ago, I played with some old Ben Hogan Apex II forged clubs and had the time of my life hacking around with them.

[Jaytee]

A guy I know switched from cavity back to Mizuno blades and it took him a few seasons to get his game back up to the same point it was when using the cavity backs (shoots in the 80s). When he hit the ball solid with the blades it would go really long and really straight but on any mishits wouldnt go very far at all, very unforgiving.

If I was commited and played like twice a week or more, I would probably get some muscle backs because I think I could be pretty consistant in my swing.

But right now I play once a week, sometime once every two weeks and find it hard to play consistant when i dont play often, so for me I will always stick with the cavity backs.

Let us know what you decide on, Im curious which you will choose.

[cldale]

warrenq, from your comment I would assume you think that the difference in playability is somewhat over-rated when compared to "feel"?

In general, my problem with ball-striking is that I push the ball with all my clubs and slice my driver. I've never had problems getting the ball in the air. From what I can see, the general "benefits" of cb irons is higher ball flight and more forgiving on off-center hits right?

I tried callaway x-forged irons and I loved the feel of them, but I was immediately put off by them as they are marketed towards low handicappers.

If I was commited and played like twice a week or more, I would probably get some muscle backs because I think I could be pretty consistant in my swing.

Hmmm, right now I probably play every other week but I am at the range probably twice in a week, and I usually hit 2 large buckets.

The sadistic/masochistic/macho side of me always pushes for the more advanced or anything. I use one of the most difficult tennis sticks out there (Wilson ProStaff 85" sq) just because I wanted my racquet to punish me for my mistakes... so I would stop making those mistakes.

But golf isn't tennis, and I have a fear of paying a lot of money for what would eventually end up as decorative tree trunk wrappings.

[goshawk]

But golf isn't tennis, and I have a fear of paying a lot of money for what would eventually end up as decorative tree trunk wrappings.

Interesting analogy!
My suggestion, based on what you've said so far, is to get cavity backs. I base this suggestion solely on playability. And there are CB heads that will feel just as "soft" as MB. Personally, I use Wishon 560MC cavity backs. I had them built and custom fitted for me (I'm also 6'3") and totally love these irons. I play to about an 8 right now (hopefully it will still be there whenever I can get back on the course again). According to everything I've read, CB's are the most forgiving, followed by MB and blades. If you have any inconsistencies in your ball striking, they will be least noticeable with the CB's and the most pronounced with the blades. MB's will be someplace in between.
Ultimately, the choice will be yours. It's going to depend on exactly what you want to get out of the clubs. I suggest going to a demo day, or going to someplace like Golf Town or Nevada Bob's and try as many clubs as you can to see which one most closely fits what you're looking for, and which ones appeal to your eye at address (after all, if they don't LOOK right when you looking down at address you won't have a lot of confidence in them).

[hamiltonhacker]

Have you looked at trying clubs through Gof Town's program. $35.00 to "rent" the clubs for five days. They are delivered via UPS and you return them by dropping them off at a UPS store. If you decide to buy the clubs they discount the price by the $35.00. (Presumably only for those clubs, not any others you may have tried)

This would be a way to try good quality muscle backed and cavity backed irons before making a decision.

Pat

[cldale]

Have you looked at trying clubs through Gof Town's program. $35.00 to "rent" the clubs for five days. They are delivered via UPS and you return them by dropping them off at a UPS store. If you decide to buy the clubs they discount the price by the $35.00. (Presumably only for those clubs, not any others you may have tried)

This would be a way to try good quality muscle backed and cavity backed irons before making a decision.

Pat

Yeah, I would be interested in doing this, preferably once I have my choices narrowed down to 2 sets or so.

[coe14]

Cavity backed !!!!!

If I was to be paired with you, and you mishit the ball playing with muscle backed blades - I would laugh and laugh and laugh and tell all my friends what a maroon I got paired with.

[hoganapexplus]

Lots of good comments. The bottom line is you need to find a set that suits your eye, your budget and your game. If you are looking for forgiveness, CB may be the way to go, or if you are getting seriously back into it you may want a set that will suit you when you improve. Some will tell you that MB are like hitting rocks but my experience is that if you mishit any club bad enough you are going to pay for it in terms of performance and stinging hands. Find a set that you like and let your game match it. At 6'3", you probably shouldn't buy off the rack but as suggested get fitted.

[Jeffc]

unless you are a single digit index you should not even be looking at muscle backs. I assume by high cap you mean 15+? If so save yourself some time and trouble and look for a nice set of game improvement irons, cavity backs. You don't need to make things any harder than they already are.

[cldale]

Is it really that big of a difference?

Something doesn't seem right to me to be using clubs to overcome technical deficiencies in your game. What is the point of playing if the clubs play for you? I might as well just drive a cart through the course without playing at all.

[guitarman]

Is it really that big of a difference?

Something doesn't seem right to me to be using clubs to overcome technical deficiencies in your game. What is the point of playing if the clubs play for you? I might as well just drive a cart through the course without playing at all.

Don't lots of tour pros use CBs? If its good enough for them.....

[cldale]

Cavity backed !!!!!

If I was to be paired with you, and you mishit the ball playing with muscle backed blades - I would laugh and laugh and laugh and tell all my friends what a maroon I got paired with.

No offense, but someone who laughs at another golfer isn't someone I'd ever want to be paired with anyways. Among my friends, people who act like that aren't going to be included in anyone's plans ongoing.

Do they? Anyone in particular? It always looks to me like guys on tour are using muscleback blades.

I guess my question here is whether the difference is extreme? Obviously I will be testing out lots of clubs to great length, but I am just curious in advance what kind of differences there are.

[Titleist75]

Cavity backed !!!!!

If I was to be paired with you, and you mishit the ball playing with muscle backed blades - I would laugh and laugh and laugh and tell all my friends what a maroon I got paired with.

We should play 18 holes sometime;).... I enjoy the odd ribbing on my blade mishits. How about you? :D


I guess my question here is whether the difference is extreme? Obviously I will be testing out lots of clubs to great length, but I am just curious in advance what kind of differences there are.

Well, I have Titleist & Taylormade cavity backs and Nike forged blades. To me the Nike blades by far FEEL better even on mishits due to them being forged. I KNOW at impact if it was mishit immediately. The Titleist's were slightly more forgiving but not by much. The Taylormades were like shovels because the were oversized. I may not be the greatest ball striker, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING beats my forged blades and the way they feel. Just my 2 cents. Blades will make you feel like a champ or a chump depending how you are hitting them that day.:hush:

[Leftygolfer30]

Cavity backed !!!!!

If I was to be paired with you, and you mishit the ball playing with muscle backed blades - I would laugh and laugh and laugh and tell all my friends what a maroon I got paired with.

Not sure what a "maroon" is, other than a colour :rolleyes:

Also, please make sure we're never paired together in any golf event, anywhere. I too, wouldn't want to golf with anyone that would take joy in seeing a fellow golfer fail - and then laughing behind their back to boot.

What's YOUR handicap BTW???

[dekker]

Hi,

I am a pretty high handicapper who just started playing again this year after about 10-12 years off the course. I have been immediately bitten by the bug and started taking lessons and playing/practising regularly.

I am looking to get a set of fitted irons to replace my existing cheapo dunlops bought from sportchek for $200. I am 6'3" and have been told multiple times by multiple people that I should invest in properly fitted clubs if I am going to continue.

I am not really inclined to buy the latest and greatest new thing, so the next set of clubs i buy I'd like to be my last, or at least, to last for a long long time.

In that vein, I was wondering whether anyone has an opinion about whether I should get cavity back or muscle back irons? I really want to improve and get better and lower my handicap as much as possible, and my thought was that the additional feedback I'd get from muscleback's would probably reinforce good habits better than cavity backs.

Is this unrealistic? Are muscle back irons much harder to play with than cavity backs, or are the differences in forgiveness and ball flight not actually that major?

Money isn't really too much of an issue here, I'd prefer to spend good money on a set I will really enjoy and keep for a long time rather than spend less on a set I will want to replace in several years anyhow.

I realize this is a pretty tough question to give a definitive answer on, but any opinions or thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers.
Continue with the lessons and then ask your pro for a recommendation on clubs since he likely has the best perspective on your ability.

[Golf_Goof]

Couple things:

Pros play what they are paid to play with a few exceptions. Their good enough to play shovels and get them to perform.

I understand that today's forged blades are way more forgiving than 20 yrs ago.

Appearance goes a long way IMO. Get what you like to look at in the bag and at address.

As far as mishits go, I saw Tiger at the BMW (Fri I think) where he basically hit his drive about 50 yds offline from the tee (the camera angle from down the line showed the ball take off way over the trees on the right hand side - like the clubface was literally 45 deg open!) I didn't think pros EVER hit it that bad - let alone TW. Still birdied the hole to boot.

I wonder when PING will offer a forging? I remember reading that Tim Herron puts a new set of EYE 2s in the bag every season.

[LowPost42]

Play some Wishon 550C's. Nice little low offset muscle-cavs.

[cldale]

Also, please make sure we're never paired together in any golf event, anywhere. I too, wouldn't want to golf with anyone that would take joy in seeing a fellow golfer fail - and then laughing behind their back to boot.

Lefty, you sound like the kind of person I would enjoy playing with :)

Someone told me long ago that you don't laugh at people or belittle them, its simply not classy and has no place in polite society.

I enjoy golf because of the challenge, I enjoy competing against myself and striving to become a better golfer in the same way I enjoy trying to improve all other areas of my life/self. For me, this is what makes the journey of life worthwhile.

So for me, I'd rather strive for perfection and fail, then aim for mediocrity and achieve my goals :)

[davevandyk]

gotta say that i LOVE blades, i have tried to go back to cavities, but just didn't hit them as good, perhaps its because i have to focus more with blades

[Bellyhungry]

Cldale,

You might want to take a look at the Titleist 735.

They have cavity back in the long irons morphing into muscle back in the short irons. They gives you the best of both world.

Not to mention they are migthy handsome looking.

[Weirfan]

there is no argument at all....cavity backs by design are wayyy more forgiving than any blade or muscle back ...if you dont believe me just take a demo of a blade a players cb and a frogiving cb to the range

these days there are what is described as players cb and game improvement cavity backs.....

if you want to play better golf get a game improvement cb and try and get them fit to you

[cldale]

They have cavity back in the long irons morphing into muscle back in the short irons. They gives you the best of both world

Yes, I was just perusing the Wishon site actually and saw that they really seem to push a combination set of 550M/C with the 3-5 irons as CB's and the higher irons as MB's. The ability to later change that configuration without buying a whole new set is appealing.

I wonder what a set of customer fit wishon 550C/M runs for in Canada?

If you want to play better golf get a game improvement cb and try and get them fit to you

So if the club forgives my mistakes, how do I know i make them, and how can I correct them?

[JEBS]

So if the club forgives my mistakes, how do I know i make them, and how can I correct them?

usually you correct mistakes by hours upon hours of practice. That is probably why VJ, Tiger etc. can play true blades. If you are an average golfer who can only get out once a week you are not afforded the time to practice enough to master the true bladed club (although some people just play blades well) the cavity back allows the weight to be redistributed to increase the clubs sweet spot as well as help get the ball up in the air.

Blades are not cheap.. so before I would pull the trigger on blades I would make darn sure that they were the choice for me.

Only 25% of the big tour players are playing a muscle back iron, so if 75% are playing a cavity back or game improvement iron shouldn't the average player take a closer look at their choice as well?

Finally of all the irons in the "players" section of this years GD Hot List not one was a muscle back.

Do not get me wrong, nothing is nicer looking than a clean forged MB iron.. but if you can only hit it properly 60% of the time you are not going to enjoy this game.

[leftintherough]

Yes, I was just perusing the Wishon site actually and saw that they really seem to push a combination set of 550M/C with the 3-5 irons as CB's and the higher irons as MB's. The ability to later change that configuration without buying a whole new set is appealing.

I wonder what a set of customer fit wishon 550C/M runs for in Canada?



So if the club forgives my mistakes, how do I know i make them, and how can I correct them?

Give Ian Hale at http://www.halescustomclubworks.com/ 416-919-4359. He is a Wishon club builder and can set you up with something that will fit your build, swing and golf goals. You may want to look at the 560's. They are very sweet and would be in my bag if Tom built them in a lefty version.

[warreng]

Cavity backed !!!!!

If I was to be paired with you, and you mishit the ball playing with muscle backed blades - I would laugh and laugh and laugh and tell all my friends what a maroon I got paired with.

See?!?! This is the exact kind of mentality I was talking about with my first post in this thread.

[leftintherough]

See?!?! This is the exact kind of mentality I was talking about with my first post in this thread.

The reply poster is definately in the minority around here. All the golfers I've shared a round with through TGN were consummate professionals, even Terry(LG30), hehe. Seriously, had only great outings with the folks from TGN, very supportive and fun to hang with.

[cldale]

Blades are not cheap.. so before I would pull the trigger on blades I would make darn sure that they were the choice for me.

The clubs I have looked at are all in the same range as blades though. I am probably going to be dropping 1k for my next set since I intend on keeping it for a LONG LONG time. So I would rather buy something I will grow into over time, rather than something I will grow out of.

Only 25% of the big tour players are playing a muscle back iron, so if 75% are playing a cavity back or game improvement iron shouldn't the average player take a closer look at their choice as well?

Wow, I never realized so many play with CB's. I would have assumed that top players required the playability you get from MB's. Is that a reflection of how good cavity back's are getting, or how difficult to hit musclebacks truly are?

Do not get me wrong, nothing is nicer looking than a clean forged MB iron.. but if you can only hit it properly 60% of the time you are not going to enjoy this game.

Yes, which is really what I was looking for. Drawing from what I know more about (Tennis), the difference between a top control racquet like the Wilson ProStaff 85, and a max improvement raquet is large, but a novice can still play and enjoy using a top end stick.

From what I am hearing, the differences between the MB and CB clubs is much more dramatic.

[Flog]

I think Weirfan made an important comment about different types of cb's. I have a set of players cb's (infinity 422's) and they have a vastly different feel than my game improvement cb's. I also have a faster swingspeed with the players cb's and can shape the ball better (when my swing permits). I bought these with the intention of growing into them but the club ho in me wouldn't let me stop buying stuff and I wound up with more clubs. I'll never sell the 422's though, they're just too sweet and the feel is excellent.
Maybe worth considering a set of players cb's-- a nice compromise.

[guitarman]

See?!?! This is the exact kind of mentality I was talking about with my first post in this thread.

I think (hope) the poster was just kidding and maybe just made a bad joke. I can't imagine someone ridiculing someone for having a rough time out on the course.
As for blades, I thought about trying them but having switched to a more players CB from a game improvement, was already hard enough to adjust to. No sense in making things any harder than they have to be.

[xander.uk]

IMO golf has very little to do with how good your good shots are and more to do with how bad your bad 1's are.

That being the case i would go for the cavity backs as they are more forgiving on your bad 1's.

but i would agree with the comment about getting lessons and then taking advice from your coach - that would obviously be best as he can see what clubs would suit you best.

[Tintin]

Click on the pics:
http://tutelman.com/golf/design/physics2.php?ref=#moi


As you might expect, the further we place the mass from the CG the more effective it is in resisting torque. If your intuition doesn't tell you this, it's time for another experiment.

Get two identical wire hangers and four identical "weights" (small objects considerably heavier than the hangers, but still light enough so you can attach them to the hangers with, say, masking tape).
On hanger #1, tape two weights to the horizontal wire as close to the center as possible.
On hanger #2, tape two weights to the horizontal wire, as far from the center as possible. One weight should be near each tip.
Repeat the previous experiment with both hangers, but note how "enthusiastically" each hanger swings or turns in response to the same strength of tap.http://tutelman.com/golf/design/pix/MOI_low.jpg (http://tutelman.com/golf/design/pix/MOI_low.wmv)http://tutelman.com/golf/design/pix/MOI_high.jpg (http://tutelman.com/golf/design/pix/MOI_high.wmv)The videos here repeat that experiment, but on steroids. (Click the thumbnail images to see the videos.) We have made a short barbell with steel weight plates and PVC pipe, and hung it so it can turn. If you don't want to do the experiment yourself, you can see what happened when I did it with the short barbell.

The two barbells (like the two hangers) are exactly the same mass, and they should swing identically in response to tapping the center of the barbell. But, in response to an off-center tap, barbell #1 will turn much faster than barbell #2. That's because the weights far from the axis of rotation contribute a lot more to the moment of inertia than do weights near the axis. Moreover, #1's motion seems to be all rotation, while #2 swings a little as well, indicating that the object's mass is getting into the

[cldale]

Thanks for the replys everyone, I think I will definately go for a set of cavity backs, but perhaps a set more towards the mid-low handicap side that I can grow into over time and still be satisfied with.

Out of curiosity, can someone give me a rough idea of what I would expect to pay for a custom set of clubs like Wishon 560MC's? Assume 3-PW,SW,LW

Cheers all.

[warreng]

Thanks for the replys everyone, I think I will definately go for a set of cavity backs, but perhaps a set more towards the mid-low handicap side that I can grow into over time and still be satisfied with.

Out of curiosity, can someone give me a rough idea of what I would expect to pay for a custom set of clubs like Wishon 560MC's? Assume 3-PW,SW,LW

Cheers all.

Well, if your'e going to look for a set of clubs along those lines and budget isn't a concern, wait for these, they come out next month:

http://www.deeprough.com/index.php/2007/08/20/mp-600-mp-57-mx-560/

BTW, is it okay to post external links like this?

Look sweet!

[el tigre]

Thanks for the replys everyone, I think I will definately go for a set of cavity backs, but perhaps a set more towards the mid-low handicap side that I can grow into over time and still be satisfied with.

Out of curiosity, can someone give me a rough idea of what I would expect to pay for a custom set of clubs like Wishon 560MC's? Assume 3-PW,SW,LW

Cheers all. Brand new, you would be looking around $50/head + shafts, grips and assembly. I would budget around $100 per club, but it depends on the shafts chosen.

BTW, is it okay to post external links like this?

Links to a commercial site in your signature is not allowed, but it is OK in posts as long as it is not for advertising and promotional purposes. Your link looks fine.

[danscustomgolfshop]

You do have to realize that todays muscle backs are way more forgiving than yester-years. With the understanding of things like the Maltby Playability factor and other rating systems have helped the designers understand playability far more than they used to.
Blades are still a bit of a players club, but they will not rattle your hands like the old ones did.
Shortened hozels, placing weight where it should be so the center of gravity is in or near the center (and far lower than it use to be) have helped huge.
A properly fit muscle is not something that should be feared to the extent it use to.
You can now buy heads that will have the players look such as the Wishon 560MC which is a forged iron with CNC cut into the back allowing the blade look and feel but the forgiveness of a cavity.