Does Custom fitting really helped?

[trunckslammer1]

I am confused. I have being golfing for close to 25 years. Started when I was in my early 30's. Like every golfer I tried to get better as time goes on. I always have a good short game and putting was never a problem. Driving the ball was. When Callaway came out with their Big Bertha, it was heaven. Suddenly driving the ball became so much easier. After that, a new driver seem to be the norm every few years. About 5 years ago, I had the opportunity to buy a Precept driver by Bridgestone - not available in Canada at that time but the price was right - 1/3 the price of the TM, etc. With this off the shelf driver I hit a lot of fairways and distance was very acceptable. However, last year, I played against 2 golfers at different times in competition and they both outdrove me by 30-40 yards. I had to check their drivers. One was using the Ping G5 and another the Snake Eyes. But the shaft in both of them were the Grafalloy Blue. Right after the second match, I went to golfsmith, bought the Driver head, the shaft and took it to a gentleman in Brampton who assembles clubs. Paid him $20.00. I never at any time check out specs etc. all it is is a regular shaft and cut to regular length etc. No launch monitor whatsoever.
Where am I going with this? As some of you who have played with me, knows that I hit a lot of fairways and I (at my age) can keep up to a lot of younger golfers. Now, I am looking to replace my off the shelf irons. I have always bought off the shelf - Ping eye 2, Ram FX Forged and presently using Taylor made 300.
Reading all the posts with regards to custom clubs etc specially made for oneself, I am not sure if it helps or not. Can anyone who has bought custom made clubs honestly tell me that they have lowered their handicap considerably since they have those clubs.
Should I just buy off the shelf clubs or get custom made ones?
My current GAO index is 5.6 if it helps any clubmaker out there who wants to comment on this.

[goshawk]

Slammer, I have had a set of Wishon 560MC's custom-fitted for me this past spring. Prior to these clubs, I was using a set of off the shelf cavity back irons. My accuracy and distance increased dramatically for me when I made the switch this spring. My hdcp has gone down from 13-14 to presently 7.78. I attribute this drop solely to the irons and the accuracy that I've gotten from them. I don't think there's anything that's changed in my swing or my course management (always conservative).

[dekker]

It's likely you could reap the advantages that a good fitter can give you at this point more than ever. With a fully developed swing,such as yours,the fitter has the right parameters to work with.

I had the good fortune of developing a good working relationship with one particular dedicated fitter. I had been leery of fittings in the past as very few who offered the service,at that time,seemed to have little more than "night course" qualification.Unfortunately the gentleman has passed on,but what I learned from him helps me make the right choices fitting clubs to myself.

[xander.uk]

slammer

the answer simply is yes....................of course it is also POSSIBLE but extremely unlikely that your body and swingtype are ideally suited to off the shelf specs.

After i had my clubs fitted the difference i noticed was not that my shots were better..simply that i hit less bad 1's and the bad 1's werent as bad as before my fitting ( if you see what i mean.lol) all good shots feel good :)

Now when i miss the green with my approach shot its more likely i will be near the green than nearer another fairway :)

I am sure some of the fitters/builders on here can give you all the technical reasons ( that i cant ) as to why it improves your game but in my experience i have learned that i will ALWAYS get my clubs fitted in the future.

My advice would be for you to do the same - as goshawk said he has dropped his handicap considerably ( i dropped mine by 4 shots ) and we both consider the club fitting as being the main factor that contributed to that improvement. :)

[ontario]

I have bought both - custom and off the shelf. I see absolutely no difference in my golf performance related to club fit. I'm currently using a custom driver now. I go back and forth between it and my off-the-shelf Ping G2 and there is no difference.

All products that are designed for the human body are built to fit the proportions of "the norm". Shoes, car seats, computer keyboards, office chairs, golf clubs. If you are outside that norm then custom fitting will probably benefit. I am 5'10", average build and proportions, standard lie, loft and length. Off the shelf fits me just fine. If you are 6'5" or have monkey arms, then you need custom.

I feel I did benefit from going to a clubfitter (three times, three different ones) to confirm that I am standard lie, loft and length. One fitter had me at 1* upright so I took the majority opinion. I also benefit from knowing my swing speed so I can pick the right shaft. So clubfitting did benefit me in understanding my own swing but custom clubs, per se, made no difference.

[hogannut]

Go to a club fitter and try some of this component stuff out, it's solid equipment. I have been golfing for over 30 years and playing Hogan equipment for 30 years. My next set of irons (which are now done and I'm getting them this weekend!) are Snake Eyes 600C cavity back forged heads with E21 Scandium shafts. These are top notch equipment and would rival any OE head. They are built to my specs, with the grip of my choice and cost less than OE. As Dylan said...."the times they are a changing."

[trunckslammer1]

Go to a club fitter and try some of this component stuff out, it's solid equipment. I have been golfing for over 30 years and playing Hogan equipment for 30 years. My next set of irons (which are now done and I'm getting them this weekend!) are Snake Eyes 600C cavity back forged heads with E21 Scandium shafts. These are top notch equipment and would rival any OE head. They are built to my specs, with the grip of my choice and cost less than OE. As Dylan said...."the times they are a changing."

I was waiting for your reply as I have been following your posts on changing your clubs from Hogan to Snake Eyes and how you had one done (7I I think) to try out for a while before making a committment. Let me know how the next few games turn out with the full set as if I am not mistaken you do play a few competitive rounds. I will finish the year with what I have and will make a decision for next season during the off season.

[hogannut]

What I can tell you is the demo club my club fitter put together was the best golf club I have ever hit. Now....most of that is due to the shaft more so than the head. A forged head is a forged head and they are all made in China now anyway. I chose the Snake Eyes because I really like them. The 600c's have a real solid "meaty" muscle back within the cavity and make a real solid hit on the ball. They are a 5 step forging process and if you are a higher handicap you can go with the 600XC's which are a mid-size head and a lower cavity (lower CG) than the 600C. These clubs are currently being cleared out of Golfsmith, so you could get a good deal now, even if you buy the heads now and assemble them in the spring. Not sure where you live, but there is a 600C 5iron demo with a 5.5 E21 shaft at Golden Ridge range (404 & Stouville) that you could try. The # is 905-888-0505.

I'm going to post some pics and comments about the new clubs within the next week or so. I should be getting them Saturday.

[Weirfan]

I have bought both - custom and off the shelf. I see absolutely no difference in my golf performance related to club fit. I'm currently using a custom driver now. I go back and forth between it and my off-the-shelf Ping G2 and there is no difference.

All products that are designed for the human body are built to fit the proportions of "the norm". Shoes, car seats, computer keyboards, office chairs, golf clubs. If you are outside that norm then custom fitting will probably benefit. I am 5'10", average build and proportions, standard lie, loft and length. Off the shelf fits me just fine. If you are 6'5" or have monkey arms, then you need custom.

I feel I did benefit from going to a clubfitter (three times, three different ones) to confirm that I am standard lie, loft and length. One fitter had me at 1* upright so I took the majority opinion. I also benefit from knowing my swing speed so I can pick the right shaft. So clubfitting did benefit me in understanding my own swing but custom clubs, per se, made no difference.

The fact that a fitting confirms that you need std LLL in a club is the minority ......1* up is really nothing significant.....and what is std or 1* up from what....there is no standard loft or lie on a club...........they will be close , however every manufacturer has their progression...even length will change

custom fitting in a driver ( while useful) is less important and will have a lessor impact overall IMO than in the irons and putter.....lie angle is not important in a driver....total weight loft, length and shaft characteristices are key there

remember that there are over 20 variables that need to be looked at with a custom fitting ( I have posted the list previously in other threads) ............many places and some fitters will not take all of these into consideration and may only do static measurements, measure swing speed and do a lie board test...........these are the basics ....

A golfersskill level certainly has the greatest bearing on scoring, however , I believe that everyone can benefit from the advice and knowledge that a good fitter can provide

one of the most crucial features a good fitter can provide is advice and options in terms of your set make up......determining the set make up that best suits an individual is a crucial factor .............they won't likley push a "std" set of 3-pw where the vast majority of the population cannot effectively hit a 3 or 4 iron

[Louie]

The fact that a fitting confirms that you need std LLL in a club is the minority ......1* up is really nothing significant.....and what is std or 1* up from what....there is no standard loft or lie on a club...........they will be close , however every manufacturer has their progression...even length will change

custom fitting in a driver ( while useful) is less important and will have a lessor impact overall IMO than in the irons and putter.....lie angle is not important in a driver....total weight loft, length and shaft characteristices are key there

remember that there are over 20 variables that need to be looked at with a custom fitting ( I have posted the list previously in other threads) ............many places and some fitters will not take all of these into consideration and may only do static measurements, measure swing speed and do a lie board test...........these are the basics ....

A golfersskill level certainly has the greatest bearing on scoring, however , I believe that everyone can benefit from the advice and knowledge that a good fitter can provide

one of the most crucial features a good fitter can provide is advice and options in terms of your set make up......determining the set make up that best suits an individual is a crucial factor .............they won't likley push a "std" set of 3-pw where the vast majority of the population cannot effectively hit a 3 or 4 iron

Finally a answer/explaination I totally agree with. Very well put my friend.

[swaaain]

The fact that a fitting confirms that you need std LLL in a club is the minority ......1* up is really nothing significant.....and what is std or 1* up from what....there is no standard loft or lie on a club...........they will be close , however every manufacturer has their progression...even length will change

custom fitting in a driver ( while useful) is less important and will have a lessor impact overall IMO than in the irons and putter.....lie angle is not important in a driver....total weight loft, length and shaft characteristices are key there

remember that there are over 20 variables that need to be looked at with a custom fitting ( I have posted the list previously in other threads) ............many places and some fitters will not take all of these into consideration and may only do static measurements, measure swing speed and do a lie board test...........these are the basics ....

A golfersskill level certainly has the greatest bearing on scoring, however , I believe that everyone can benefit from the advice and knowledge that a good fitter can provide

one of the most crucial features a good fitter can provide is advice and options in terms of your set make up......determining the set make up that best suits an individual is a crucial factor .............they won't likley push a "std" set of 3-pw where the vast majority of the population cannot effectively hit a 3 or 4 iron

Peter explains it best.

One are he forgot to mention, and it is in another thread is putter fitting.

Great explanation Pete.

Jeff

[TORAIDER]

Where am I going with this? As some of you who have played with me, knows that I hit a lot of fairways and I (at my age) can keep up to a lot of younger golfers. Now, I am looking to replace my off the shelf irons. I have always bought off the shelf - Ping eye 2, Ram FX Forged and presently using Taylor made 300.

Should I just buy off the shelf clubs or get custom made ones?
My current GAO index is 5.6 if it helps any clubmaker out there who wants to comment on this.

I have had my clubs custom fitted this year and have seen a substantial drop in my scoring. Last year and earlier this year I shot in the 115 range and now I have seen my scores drop to the high 90s. I attribute this to a couple factors. 1) Custom Fit Clubs, 2) Course Management and Better Decision Making, 3) Good Advice and Lessons from my fitter and playing partners.

One thing to consider is just modifying your existing club heads. At your GAO index, I have no idea how much you will be able to improve. But, you may just have adjust you lies, perhaps replace your shafts, have our grips built up. A good fitter will be able to provide you with the knowledge and equipment necessary to improve your game.

[trunckslammer1]

One thing to consider is just modifying your existing club heads. At your GAO index, I have no idea how much you will be able to improve. But, you may just have adjust you lies, perhaps replace your shafts, have our grips built up. A good fitter will be able to provide you with the knowledge and equipment necessary to improve your game.

I am always trying to improve especially my GIR. At my age I recognise that eventually I will not be able to:mad: I am not playing badly especially in tournament play - I am somewhat a grinder but I think my iron play can be better. I might even take some lessons - something I used to do a lot up to 5 years ago.

[TORAIDER]

I am always trying to improve especially my GIR. At my age I recognise that eventually I will not be able to:mad: I am not playing badly especially in tournament play - I am somewhat a grinder but I think my iron play can be better. I might even take some lessons - something I used to do a lot up to 5 years ago.

Sorry TS,

I probably should have phrased my statement a little bit different. I have no doubt you will improve, but I do not know to what degree. Only you will be able to tell us after you switch to custom clubs...;)

I have head that people that play close to your level will adapt to whatever set they are playing. This makes improvement a little bit more difficult...

[danscustomgolfshop]

Sorry Ontario, but I got to disagree completely.
Ever tried buying just size 9 shoes. 1 pair will be big, next small - width varies by manufacturer.
Ever seen the guy that can't see over the steering wheel?
When I bought the ergo keyboard my wife loved it. etc.

I can take 3 identically sized patrons and all can play different lengths and lies.
1 - hands close to the body
2 - hand 8 inches from the body - longer club
3 - single axis swing - much longer club
1 degree of lie error on a wedge is critical - +/- 1 degree is the industry standard.
Every individual is just that. No off the shelf item will ever compete with a proper fitting, in any aspect of life.

I have bought both - custom and off the shelf. I see absolutely no difference in my golf performance related to club fit. I'm currently using a custom driver now. I go back and forth between it and my off-the-shelf Ping G2 and there is no difference.

All products that are designed for the human body are built to fit the proportions of "the norm". Shoes, car seats, computer keyboards, office chairs, golf clubs. If you are outside that norm then custom fitting will probably benefit. I am 5'10", average build and proportions, standard lie, loft and length. Off the shelf fits me just fine. If you are 6'5" or have monkey arms, then you need custom.

I feel I did benefit from going to a clubfitter (three times, three different ones) to confirm that I am standard lie, loft and length. One fitter had me at 1* upright so I took the majority opinion. I also benefit from knowing my swing speed so I can pick the right shaft. So clubfitting did benefit me in understanding my own swing but custom clubs, per se, made no difference.

[Focker Singh]

I just bought a set of used irons and I`m definately going to get them fitted. Based on this thread and other people I`ve talked to, getting fitted is really important if you want to start hitting more consistent shots. Since I`m totally new to fitted clubs, whats the process I can expect when I go visit a club fitter? Launch monitor? Swing analysis? etc etc. If I need my irons shortened (I`m a short guy) does that mean I have to buy new shafts and grips? I`m looking forward to my fitting and hope it really helps lower my scores.

[trunckslammer1]

Sorry TS,

I probably should have phrased my statement a little bit different. I have no doubt you will improve, but I do not know to what degree. Only you will be able to tell us after you switch to custom clubs...;)

I have head that people that play close to your level will adapt to whatever set they are playing. This makes improvement a little bit more difficult...

No offence taken. Yes, it is harder to improve and that is why I am trying to take as much advantage as I can of new technology etc. That is why I asked Hoganut to let us know after he got his clubs how much of an edge he is getting. If I stop playing competitive golf, then I will probably not bother changing clubs for recreational play. Too much money to spend just to maybe improve by a couple of strokes. We will see during the off season.
Thanks for your input. I love to see your irons though. I have heard a lot about the Wishon.

[cldale]

1 degree of lie error on a wedge is critical - +/- 1 degree is the industry standard.

Dan,

Is the lie angle a function of the clubhead itself or of the setup/fitting? i.e. could one buy off the rack clubs and have them adjusted to different lie angles after the fact?

Cheers.

[ontario]

Sorry Ontario, but I got to disagree completely.
Ever tried buying just size 9 shoes. 1 pair will be big, next small - width varies by manufacturer.
Ever seen the guy that can't see over the steering wheel?
When I bought the ergo keyboard my wife loved it. etc.

Designers build around a set of parameters that they consider the "norm". The guy who can't see over the steering wheel is not the norm.

This is not to say that each company uses the exact same "norm". Absolutely not. This is also not to say that one company's size 9 is the same as another's size 9. You pointed this out already. Ever try to buy clothes in Asia? An average sized North American male will be looking at XL and XXL.

As for golf clubs, I find it very hard to believe that Callaway, TM and Titleist are duping the public and selling thousands of ill-fitted clubs. I know from my experience that I can take a set of decent irons, off-the-rack and play exactly the same as I do now.

I have been to three clubfitters in two seasons. I have been drinking the Kool-Aid. Each one told me (with one minor variation) that I am standard L/L/L. Interestingly enough, one clubfitter last year told me I was 1* upright and adjusted my irons. The clubfitter I saw this year (starts with "S", ends with "wain") adjusted them back to neutral.

The KZGs that I own are set up with the exact same specs as my off-the-shelf, never-been-touched-by-a-clubfitter Mizunos. Could I be the only one who fits off the shelf?

I know this is a no win argument and there are many who feel strongly about clubfitting so I'm just going to make this my last post on this thread.

Fire away with your rebuttals.

Dan,

Is the lie angle a function of the clubhead itself or of the setup/fitting? i.e. could one buy off the rack clubs and have them adjusted to different lie angles after the fact?

Cheers.

Yes if the clubs are forged. Maybe if they are cast.

[trunckslammer1]

I know from my experience that I can take a set of decent irons, off-the-rack and play exactly the same as I do now.


I know this is a no win argument and there are many who feel strongly about clubfitting so I'm just going to make this my last post on this thread.

Fire away with your rebuttals.



I have been doing this for 20 years, but like Hoganut said, "the times they're changing" I hope that with newer technology and better R&D I may get the extra edge I am looking for.
Do not make this your last post on this matter. You raise very valid points. I like to hear all the Pro's and Con's and will decide during the off season what I am going to do.
By the way, I have played a few round's with golfers from TGN and have seen, tried the clubs that they have custom built - either shafts only with their original heads or even full sets. The jury, in my opinion is still out.

[Forged5]

I have been playing with custom fit irons (currently Mizuno MP 32's, used to have TM 300, Hogans...) for years. I have no doubt they are instrumental in my handicap coming down every single year I've played.

Yes, you should at the very least have your current set fitted to you. Loft and lie are easily adjusted by a competent fitter and the shafts can be checked for you as well (pulling out and buying new shafts is still less $$$ than buying a new set).

I went for a driver fitting as well and that stick is the oldest club in my bag. With three woods and hybrids its been more trial and error (refusing to change MY swing to fit the club) has led me, FINALLY, to excellent clubs ( in the end my 3 wood was custom made for me and I LOVE it). I had to go through about six different hybrids until I got to the Adams.

Often, compensating moves are made for ill fitted clubs. You will find with proper sticks you ball flight will be more consistent. Less pulls and pushes.

Best of luck and enjoy! :)

[guitarman]

Often, compensating moves are made for ill fitted clubs. You will find with proper sticks you ball flight will be more consistent. Less pulls and pushes.

Best of luck and enjoy! :)

Maybe Ontario is good at compensating moves. Maybe this is why he can use off the rack clubs succesfully. Me, I like the idea of being fit. Because I'm fairly new to golf and only used non-fit clubs for one season and before I had lessons, I don't really have the experience to compare. I am taking the word of club fitters and I believie the theories make sense.

[danscustomgolfshop]

Absolutely, many great clubs out there - just need to be set up
Dan,

Is the lie angle a function of the clubhead itself or of the setup/fitting? i.e. could one buy off the rack clubs and have them adjusted to different lie angles after the fact?

Cheers.

[trunckslammer1]

I went for a driver fitting as well and that stick is the oldest club in my bag. With three woods and hybrids its been more trial and error (refusing to change MY swing to fit the club) has led me, FINALLY, to excellent clubs ( in the end my 3 wood was custom made for me and I LOVE it). I had to go through about six different hybrids until I got to the Adams.

Often, compensating moves are made for ill fitted clubs. You will find with proper sticks you ball flight will be more consistent. Less pulls and pushes.

Best of luck and enjoy! :)

Gets quite expensive doesn't it? Other then the $200+ driver, I have not spent any money of golf equipment now for close to 5 years. Even my ProV's I usually find them (advantage of a Private course member where members have too much money and no golf swing) and I lose maybe a dozen in a year. Now, Trunckslamming and running out of ProV's to find:rofl:

[sloniu260]

I can only speak for myself but custom fitting has helped my game...My Nike SQ came stock with an Aldila Nv shaft and according to sales staff at GT it was best for me swing and hdcap. After a few very bad driving rounds t was 1 of the 2: E-bay or Custom fitting. Buying and selling isn't my thing so I went to see Jeff at Swank Golf. I went in, he did his magic (launch monitor, swing analysis, the works...) He suggested a shaft that would best fit my swing and let me tell you what a difference. It took some time to get used to the new shaft but money well spent. I noticed my ball flight has changed, I'm hitting more fairways and I've seen some 280/290 yard drives (with some nice roll:) ). He also checked the 3 L on my irons, suggested some minor swing and set up changes and I must say it definitely made me shoot some low rounds (low for me anyways)....

[xander.uk]

Ontario

you may well be that mythological standard person.but the fitters told you that didnt they?

Somebody else your height may have slightly longer or shorter arms?

Maybe they are a little fatter or thinner than you?

And all our swings could be a little different from yours?

If you get 5 of your friends and all buy the same shirt in the same size it wont fit all of you prefectly will it?

Its the same with a golf club.

I havent a clue how to fit clubs and i dont work in a golf related industry ( so i aint trying to make any money:) ) but from experience i can say i improved after being fitted for clubs.

You say you wasted your time being fitted because you are a standard fit.........i would say that you didnt waste your time because now you know what fits you!
And IMO that was a good advertisement for the fitters you visited because they didnt try to sell you something you didnt need!

[ontario]

Ontario

you may well be that mythological standard person.but the fitters told you that didnt they?

Somebody else your height may have slightly longer or shorter arms?

Maybe they are a little fatter or thinner than you?

And all our swings could be a little different from yours?

If you get 5 of your friends and all buy the same shirt in the same size it wont fit all of you prefectly will it?

Its the same with a golf club.

I havent a clue how to fit clubs and i dont work in a golf related industry ( so i aint trying to make any money:) ) but from experience i can say i improved after being fitted for clubs.

You say you wasted your time being fitted because you are a standard fit.........i would say that you didnt waste your time because now you know what fits you!
And IMO that was a good advertisement for the fitters you visited because they didnt try to sell you something you didnt need!

Your shirt analogy is an interesting one because I could take the very shirt I am wearing (a medium sized dress shirt) and I'm sure it would fit 5 of my friends just fine. It wouldn't fit my brother because he's 5'6" and it wouldn't fit my friend who is 6'6" but it sure would fit 80% of my male friends.

As for conclusion about my time being wasted, you need to re-read my post. I felt that I did benefit from the fittings. I never once said I wasted my time. I am glad I went because it confirmed that I am standard L/L/L and it confirmed shaft flex.

I appreciate the clubfitters skills and don't hesitate to recommend them to people who I think would benefit. As confirmation, I can tell you that I took my father to Jeff Shuster at Fore the Golfer because I knew my father would benefit. My Dad was using the wrong clubs. Jeff fixed him up and I bought a sweet set of Wishons as a Father's Day gift. OEMs would've been cheaper but I knew they would not have been right for my father.

So, you see, I believe in custom fitting...for some people. But, I certainly would not unequivocally recommend fitting to everyone who asks on TGN. It's a definite YMMV. I strongly believe it is of no benefit to beginners, for instance. As for someone who has been playing for 25 years and is a single digit cap, I wonder. If you are playing to a 4-5 cap, then you don't have much problem with your game. For low caps, I'm pretty sure it's all about the short game, especially putting although the original poster says his short game is fine.

Okay, my last post on this thread and I mean it this time.

[Grass Roots Tour]

Ontario ... since you mentioned "low handicappers" and thier specific relevance in these matters, I thought I'd chime in.

I had my OEM Nike blades re-built over the winter of '07 by TourIQ. In my 28 years of playing, never has a set of irons been so consistant or felt this good. I only wish I could say the same about the driver.... but thats likely my swing more than the club.


I personally think that fitting is better suited to those who have a swing that repeats. Im not saying a swing that hits perfect shots all day long but one that produces the same shot over and over.


Take the R7 driver for example. Is there a point to moving the weights in the head to produce a draw when one swing causes a huge slice and the next causes a beautiful draw ?


I already know some here will disagree with me but I think at some point there has to be a reason to make the club produce a desired effect. If 5 out of 8 swings are different then what do you build to ??


BTW, seeing as Trunkslammer started this thread (and I've seen his talents) I think he's a perfect candidate for fitting.

[guitarman]

Why is the general consensus that beginners are not candidates for being properly fit for clubs? I would think that without the proper fit even for a beginner you'll have a bad swing made even worse with awkward feeling clubs. Its like someone trying to learn guitar on a guitar body thats well oversized for the prospective guitar player and the strings too far off the fret board. The begginner will soon give up due to frustration. Guitar setup can be changed over time as you become more advanced and know what works. Likewise lie angles and shafts can be changed as your swing evolves and becomes more consistant.

[bk51]

I've been playing a KZG RBT 325 driver for 5 years (from Joe at Oakville Golf). Just today I picked up my new KZG Gemini II 460 from him. I wanted to make a switch to a driver that would keep me in play more often. We did a launch monitor session and a driving range session before deciding on loft and shaft.

I keep very detailed stats on all aspects of my game, so I'll track my Fairways, GIR etc and report back after I've got enough games to provide a meaningful comparison. I'll give you full specs on both drivers then. I expect good results, but then again, hope springs eternal, there's no fool like and old fool, figures don't lie but liars sure can figure etc etc...

[TourIQ]

I've been playing a KZG RBT 325 driver for 5 years (from Joe at Oakville Golf). Just today I picked up my new KZG Gemini II 460 from him. I wanted to make a switch to a driver that would keep me in play more often. We did a launch monitor session and a driving range session before deciding on loft and shaft.Hi bk51

How did the RBT/325 compare to the Gemini 460 for distance on the LM?
Is this difference carry only, or does it compute carry + roll for total distance?

[guitarman]

I heard the KZG drivers weren't very good. I am going to be changing my driver sometime soon. Are the KZG drivers worth checking out?

[TourIQ]

I heard the KZG drivers weren't very good. I am going to be changing my driver sometime soon. Are the KZG drivers worth checking out?I was just asking the question since my son 'fb' did a 6-club driver evalaution about 3 seasons ago with the KZG RBT/325 as his baseline club.

[bk51]

How did the RBT/325 compare to the Gemini 460 for distance on the LM? Is this difference carry only, or does it compute carry + roll for total distance?

I did an LM session last week with various heads/shafts, so now I can't remember the results. I plan on going back next week with old and new drivers for an LM session, I'll post the results. Joe at Oakville Golf has a state of the art LM, not like the ones at Golf Town where the ball has to have a black stripe, I think it showed both estimated carry and carry/roll. Pretty neat machine, it calculated my clubhead speed, then told me what my optimal launch angle and spin rate would be based on my swing speed. We fitted to those numbers.

I heard the KZG drivers weren't very good. I am going to be changing my driver sometime soon. Are the KZG drivers worth checking out?

I'm sure I'm biased, but definitely worth checking out. Back in Sept '02 a long hitting friend tried my RBT against his current driver (sorry, don't remember what it was - what was the club company Greg Norman bought?). He was one-hopping his driver into the fence at the end of the range. With the RBT, the ball hit the fence 20 feet up.

[danscustomgolfshop]

To the statement - Standard clubs fit me.
See the problem with this is (and you can go look at different club specs) is:
1 company will progress in 1/2 degree lie increments
1 company will progress in 1 degree lie increments
1 company will go in 0,8 degree increments.
All build to the same length???
How can this 'standard' fit anyone?
Are all 3 companies claiming correctness in length and lie?
Lie progression is relative to length, so it is imposible for these top 3 OEM's to make the claim of correct to standard.
When you math model length and lie - you cannot have a constant progression of lenght increments - ie:1/2 inch.
As the club gets more upright - the lenght must progressively get less. This is why True Length Technology got developed.
I have no desire to argue, but am hoping to help each understand why 'Standard' for 1 company is not 'standard' for another - so how can you be fit to 'standard'.
The off the shelf sets you speak of are not the same in lie - but are in length - can they all work for the 'off the shelf' consumer? Yes they try to satisfy the masses, so if that is all the person needs, then so be it.
My point being, there are better fits than what the big box offers. There is no such thing as 'standard'
Fitters will help your game - bar none. To believe otherwise confuses me????

[Bellyhungry]

My take is that fitting is for people who are serious (not neccessarily good) about their golf game, and want to improve.

But for people who only care enough to play 5 rounds per year or for those who only play in business occasions, fitting is a 'nice to have'.

Then there are those who just like to buy shiny new brand name clubs because they are guillable to the marketing or because they want to impress their friends, then so be it.

I know there are golf-addicts who are being 'milked' by club fitters...I think professionally, the club fitter should have advised the guy 'you don't need to come to me for more new clubs, you should take your money and take some lessons and go practice'.

[danscustomgolfshop]

If the fitter is not being honest - they shouldn't and will not be in business very long. If the guys clubs do fit then lessons is the perfect 'next step' option.
You also know there are good fitters - Certified by many of the Professional Institutions that exist, and there are fitters who 'think they know', and should not be recommending anything, let along have them work on your clubs.
Lessons without clubs that fit, may help, but my honest belief is that a proper fitting club will help stabilize and promote better contact.

[Tintin]

Just strirring the pot. If a right hand golfer has a tendency to slice/push the ball and does not want ot revamp his swing he might be better off with clubs that are too upright for him and the other way around if he pulls it :hush:

[trunckslammer1]

I can only speak for myself but custom fitting has helped my game...My Nike SQ came stock with an Aldila Nv shaft and according to sales staff at GT it was best for me swing and hdcap. After a few very bad driving rounds t was 1 of the 2: E-bay or Custom fitting. Buying and selling isn't my thing so I went to see Jeff at Swank Golf. I went in, he did his magic (launch monitor, swing analysis, the works...) He suggested a shaft that would best fit my swing and let me tell you what a difference. It took some time to get used to the new shaft but money well spent. I noticed my ball flight has changed, I'm hitting more fairways and I've seen some 280/290 yard drives (with some nice roll:) ). He also checked the 3 L on my irons, suggested some minor swing and set up changes and I must say it definitely made me shoot some low rounds (low for me anyways)....

How long ago and how may rounds have you played since. With off the shelf irons, it seems to have what I called the 100 day rule. For the first 100 days, you could do no wrong and you have a lot of low rounds. After that, things seem to creep back to normal. I am not sure if at the beginning you swing better or not trying too hard because you are trying to adjust to new clubs and later after 100 days, you try to get more out of the clubs, and revert to your old bad habits.

Okay, now I have another question for the clubfitters as well as all those who had been fitted. What is involved. From Start to finish. If I bought a used set like FS and wanted them fitted to me, is that good or should I get component heads etc. I was at Golfsmith and the snake eyes 600C and 600B heads were on sale for around $29.00 each. I could buy them now as HN suggested and decided what to do with them later. I know shafts are the most important part so I was not thinking of buying the True Temper Dynamic gold shafts even though the price was sure very tempting.

[danscustomgolfshop]

If you like your clubs - retrofitting is a very viable option.
No they do not end up at the same level as a new set as shaft alignment, sorting, proper flex and tipping etc. will probably not be done. They will end up being far more playable than they were - if done properly.
This is certainly the less expensive option.
A full fitting does take time, and if building you get to remove all the variables making your set very consistent.

[leftintherough]

Okay, now I have another question for the clubfitters as well as all those who had been fitted. What is involved. From Start to finish. If I bought a used set like FS and wanted them fitted to me, is that good or should I get component heads etc. I was at Golfsmith and the snake eyes 600C and 600B heads were on sale for around $29.00 each. I could buy them now as HN suggested and decided what to do with them later. I know shafts are the most important part so I was not thinking of buying the True Temper Dynamic gold shafts even though the price was sure very tempting.

Or stick with the 600c's all the way through. Very nice heads and a great idea that I am attempted to do as well. I have the 600xc's shafted with TT dynalites and find its a great combo. You may want to look at the 600c's with E21 shafts. The way Hogannut hit the demo, these are an amazing combo and has made me a full believer of these shafts.

[hoganben]

Just a quick question. If "To the statement - Standard clubs fit me.
See the problem with this is (and you can go look at different club specs) is:
1 company will progress in 1/2 degree lie increments
1 company will progress in 1 degree lie increments
1 company will go in 0,8 degree increments.
All build to the same length???
How can this 'standard' fit anyone?" is indeed true can't one just buy from the manufacturer that suits him -after trying clubs from various manufacturers.

The clubfitters on this site seem to really know their stuff -as they will quickly tell you (is modesty still a virtue?). I have had irons fitted for me twice. Both times the clubfitters recommended regular shafts for my particular swing. I kind of liked the idea of stiff shafts but that idea was kind of laughed at. Launch monitors etc were not used. I have ended up going back to the Wilson Staff's that the first clubfitter recommended to me. He sold component clubs, however we both felt that the used Wilson Staff Goosenecks (reg shaft) were great for me. I sold the Staffs after hurting my back 7 or so years ago. After starting to play golf again, I went with a set of Hogan Apex Edge Pros with a regular shaft that was recommended to me after a fitting (no monitor -like Swain et al). I hit them quite well and was quite please (hence, Hoganben)

Late last year I was at the range with a friend who is a Golf Pro. Just for the hell of it I asked if I could try his Taylormade rac TP irons with stiff rifle shafts (I think that is what they are called). I hit amazing shots that were even more accurate than the Hogans. The shots had more of what I call a "Pro trajectory". I think my Golf Pro friend suggested that I stick with the forgiveness that the Hogan's offered. Just a few weeks ago I was lucky enough to come across a set of used Goosenecks with Dynamic Gold Stiff shafts. I decided to go against all the advice I had been given and bought the Goosenecks. It was easy to be brave because they were $44 (no pw-bought separately on Ebay). Well since I have gone to DG stiff I have shot consistently in the high 70's. I even shot a 74 (white tees) which was just amazing for me. My iron shots are just amazing now. The old Goosenecks with the regular shafts were just ok to good.

My point is that perhaps expert clubfitting can be great if you are lucky enough to find an expert clubfitter who picks what is right for you. You would have to get lucky. Ever have a sales person say that you look great in that shirt, only to get home and have your wife ask you what chicy salesperson talked you into that shirt. Perhaps, if my clubfitters had used launch monitors and outdoor fittings like Swain etc must do, I would have been set up with the proper clubs in the first place. I would only now buy clubs I have tried on the course. I find that people love to let you try your clubs. I tried someone's Steelhead woods the other day, hit them great (even better than my V-Steels) and have now bought two on Ebay. I recommend that you try doing this. You could also have a club fitted by one of the clubfitters who pop-up on this site all the time. If you like the results (that's all that matters in my opinion) you could risk getting a whole set or have them work on your current set.

[TourIQ]

The clubfitters on this site seem to really know their stuff -as they will quickly tell you (is modesty still a virtue?). I have had irons fitted for me twice. Both times the clubfitters recommended regular shafts for my particular swing. I kind of liked the idea of stiff shafts but that idea was kind of laughed at. Launch monitors etc were not used. I have ended up going back to the Wilson Staff's that the first clubfitter recommended to me. He sold component clubs, however we both felt that the used Wilson Staff Goosenecks (reg shaft) were great for me. I sold the Staffs after hurting my back 7 or so years ago. After starting to play golf again, I went with a set of Hogan Apex Edge Pros with a regular shaft that was recommended to me after a fitting (no monitor -like Swain et al). I hit them quite well and was quite please (hence, Hoganben)

Late last year I was at the range with a friend who is a Golf Pro. Just for the hell of it I asked if I could try his Taylormade rac TP irons with stiff rifle shafts (I think that is what they are called). I hit amazing shots that were even more accurate than the Hogans. The shots had more of what I call a "Pro trajectory". I think my Golf Pro friend suggested that I stick with the forgiveness that the Hogan's offered. Just a few weeks ago I was lucky enough to come across a set of used Goosenecks with Dynamic Gold Stiff shafts. I decided to go against all the advice I had been given and bought the Goosenecks. It was easy to be brave because they were $44 (no pw-bought separately on Ebay). Well since I have gone to DG stiff I have shot consistently in the high 70's. I even shot a 74 (white tees) which was just amazing for me. My iron shots are just amazing now. The old Goosenecks with the regular shafts were just ok to good.Hi Hoganben

Something similar happened to me.

I once grabbed my youngest son sticks [irons and wedges] since they were just rebuilt and they had new grips while the grips on my set [mid point between R and S flex] needed replaced. His fitting parameters are way different than mine. I marvelled at how accurate his irons were during the round, so I kept them and never gave them back. Of course we upgraded him into new forged heads so he came away with the better deal. His set were steel shafts X-flex and I still play them today. Trust me they shouldn't work for me, but I did replace the 3 and 4 iron with a fairway wood and a hybrid which I can launch higher. The rest of the set is awesome and in use for the last 7 years. Now I am building my MX-23 set, but I might soften the flex by only 1/2 a flex [mid point between S and X flex].

The X-flex shafts never felt like a telephone pole since they have Pro-Soft inserts in all of the steel shafts.

[hoganben]

I bought my Dad a mint conditon BB ll 415 driver for $50.00 at a club swap. A little golf devil appeared on my shoulder and told me that I should try it before I give to my Dad. I did, and I loved the club so much that I convinced him that my Hogan driver was much more suited to his particular needs (I guess I would have made a good salesman). Luckily, he loved the Hogan. He owed me I guess, because a few years ago he had made me give him my new Odyssey White Hot Rossie before I even had a chance to use it. Then he told me how great it was.

[hogannut]

Got the new custom built clubs yesterday.....yes custom fitting is the way to go!!

[TourIQ]

Got the new custom built clubs yesterday.....yes custom fitting is the way to go!!Your on 'cloud 9' bro. My graphite shafts [for woods and hybrids] just came in today so I can
build my full set of new sticks soon. I haven't treated myself to a full new set in 10 years.

[forgedblade]

I'm sure I'm biased, but definitely worth checking out. Back in Sept '02 a long hitting friend tried my RBT against his current driver (sorry, don't remember what it was - what was the club company Greg Norman bought?). He was one-hopping his driver into the fence at the end of the range. With the RBT, the ball hit the fence 20 feet up.

My opinion is that the RBT is not a long head at all. Before that head came out, very few people were out driving me in the tournaments that I played. A couple seasons later, when newer heads were coming out, I was being out driven every hole, by as much as 30 yards, by the same people who were the same or shorter than me off the tee. At that point I switched to the Ti 454 and relative to these players, I'm back to the distance gap I was before.

[TourIQ]

My opinion is that the RBT is not a long head at all. Before that head came out, very few people were out driving me in the tournaments that I played. A couple seasons later, when newer heads were coming out, I was being out driven every hole, by as much as 30 yards, by the same people who were the same or shorter than me off the tee. At that point I switched to the Ti 454 and relative to these players, I'm back to the distance gap I was before.Hi forgedblade

Between the KZG RBT and the Ti 454 you played the KZG Gemini and cracked the weld from swinging so hard :rofl:

Yes I agree the KZG RBT is pretty short on distance by todays standards [vs. using the larger volume heads].

[GolflLab]

The fact that a fitting confirms that you need std LLL in a club is the minority ......1* up is really nothing significant.....and what is std or 1* up from what....there is no standard loft or lie on a club...........they will be close , however every manufacturer has their progression...even length will change

custom fitting in a driver ( while useful) is less important and will have a lessor impact overall IMO than in the irons and putter.....lie angle is not important in a driver....total weight loft, length and shaft characteristices are key there

remember that there are over 20 variables that need to be looked at with a custom fitting ( I have posted the list previously in other threads) ............many places and some fitters will not take all of these into consideration and may only do static measurements, measure swing speed and do a lie board test...........these are the basics ....

A golfersskill level certainly has the greatest bearing on scoring, however , I believe that everyone can benefit from the advice and knowledge that a good fitter can provide

one of the most crucial features a good fitter can provide is advice and options in terms of your set make up......determining the set make up that best suits an individual is a crucial factor .............they won't likley push a "std" set of 3-pw where the vast majority of the population cannot effectively hit a 3 or 4 iron

Can you tell me where you have it posted the variables? Like to lok at it.

[Weirfan]

Can you tell me where you have it posted the variables? Like to lok at it.

kobus, here they are listed as from one of Tom Wishon's clubfitting books

loft
lie
face angle
horizontal bulge
vertical roll
offset

sole angle
sole width/radius
center of gravity location
head design

shaft weight
primary flex
bend profile
torque
weight distribution( balance point)

grip type/style
size
weight

assembled club:
length
MOI/swingweight
total weight
set make up