Swing weight and total weight

[GolflLab]

What are the suggestions for 3 types of players in swing weight and dead weight in their irons. I have a 18 handicap, 12 handicap and 5 handicap. Weak, medium and strong players. What would be the suggested swing weight for a 6 irons and also suggested total weight of the club for these players. I want to get an idea of the relationship between the two specs for each of these players.

[Weirfan]

What are the suggestions for 3 types of players in swing weight and dead weight in their irons. I have a 18 handicap, 12 handicap and 5 handicap. Weak, medium and strong players. What would be the suggested swing weight for a 6 irons and also suggested total weight of the club for these players. I want to get an idea of the relationship between the two specs for each of these players.

This is a great question !!!

IMHO, there is no absolute answer that can be univeraslly applied to all situations but there are guidelines that can help.

What is typically most important when deciding on what total weight is most appropriate is the strength of the golfer , but more specifically how agressive the swing is ie: the swing speed and tempo of the golfer.

It is not much related at all to golfer ability other than in many cases the better golfers often have the stronger swings.

the easiest golfer to fit in your case is the one who is physically weaker ...remember that when you are building and fitting clubs , the shaft is the main contributor to changes in the total weight of a club ( head weights are fairly constsnt from set to set and grips also or vary by 10 grams or so) shafts can vary in weight by 30-50 grams. ( graphite iron shaft to heavy weight steel shaft).....generally also, the shaft weight will also be a main factor in the clubs swing weight ( all other variables equal)

with the weaker golfer , as long as they ghave a fairly smooth tempo and swing you likely want to go with the lightest club that they can manage yet still maintain good center contact. lighter club means faster swing speed which translates to greater distance. if there is a problem with ceter contact due to the club being too light...hear is where I would might look at maybe adding to the swing weight for adjustment.

The physically strong golfer that has an aggressive move and tempo often needs a club that has a higher total weight to maintain control and improve contact....the extra weight of the club often assistes in timing and smoothing out the swing ( I actually fall into this category )

the most difficult playesr to choose for are the ones in the middle....of between strong and weak....here you really need to look at tempo and transition and go from there......likewise the physically strong golfer that swings smooth can sometimes be a challenge...in those cases I will typically go with a medium shaft weight and if there are adjustments needed after.. I will add to the swingweight....swingweight is primarily a feel parameter but often tricks the golfer into thinking that a club is heavier and can assist if the problem is overswinging and controll loss.....this can also be a good fix for the weker , less skilled golfer that overswings...ie: a higher swing weight, yet a lighter shaft ( total weight)

anyways ...just my thoughts hope that they help

[Rough Ranger]

Weirfan, super answer!

What I have found (over the last 10 years) is my swing weight has increased as I have become a more consistant swinger. When I was starting I was using a very light (c0) swing weight. This was good when I started as I was trying get the feel for the overall swing.
I found as I improved, I could not really feel where the club head was. I have a fast / strong athletic swing (even though I am an old guy) and have found I just can't so a lite swing wt. I have increased my swing wt., and feel much better about the position of the club head.

I am now at D3 for Irons, D5 for driver.

[TourIQ]

When we state a swingweight it is kind of meaningless unless we also state the club length.
Then this dialogue will be more meaningful to Kobus, and others who frequent this thread.

[pir2]

When we state a swingweight it is kind of meaningless unless we also state the club length.
Then this dialogue will be more meaningful to Kobus, and others who frequent this thread.

Care to elaborate? Your statement will also be more meaningful if you choose to elaborate w/ some more details :rofl:

[TourIQ]

Care to elaborate? Your statement will also be more meaningful if you choose to elaborate w/ some more details :rofl:Swingweight Notes:

> Add 0.5" in length ~ + 3 swt. points [- 0.5 inch ~ - 3 swt. points]
> 1 swt. point ~ +2 grams in the head [remove 2 grams ~ -1 point]
> A standard 50 gram grip accounts for ~ 9 to 10 swt. points [E3 grip off = D3 to D4 grip on]
> A change in grip weight by 4 grams will change club swt. by 1 point [lighter grip increase swt.]
> Adding a 10 inch Pro-Soft insert [1.5 grams] will decrease swt. by 0.1 to 0.2 swt. points [~ basically nil]

My opinion, swingweight not important for either driver or putter fitting, but total weight is critical here.

[Weirfan]

When we state a swingweight it is kind of meaningless unless we also state the club length.
Then this dialogue will be more meaningful to Kobus, and others who frequent this thread.

Harry,

you are correct that length is a factor in all this...in my dialogue above that is why I said all other variables equal...( meaning std club length etc)

[TourIQ]

Harry,

you are correct that length is a factor in all this...in my dialogue above that is why I said all other variables equal...( meaning std club length etc)Hi Peter

You reply was near perfection like they always are, and you didn't quote any actual swt. no's.
I was actually responding to Rough Ranger who stated [I am now at D3 for Irons, D5 for driver].

[Rough Ranger]

I was actually responding to Rough Ranger who stated [I am now at D3 for Irons, D5 for driver].

Hey Tour, all shafts are standard length as far as I know, with the PW being 1/2 an inch shorter than than the 9 iron.
I terms of other clubs (irons) I have mentioned, the TM HT set upp was pure off the shelf and no work was done. I would say they were standard length as well.

[TourIQ]

Hey Tour, all shafts are standard length as far as I know, with the PW being 1/2 an inch shorter than than the 9 iron.
I terms of other clubs (irons) I have mentioned, the TM HT set upp was pure off the shelf and no work was done. I would say they were standard length as well.Hi Rough Ranger

Please keep in mind there are few to nil industry standards in the golf
business, so one OEM standard length could be different than the next :eek:

[pir2]

> A standard 50 gram grip accounts for ~ 9 to 10 swt. points [E3 grip off = D3 to D4 grip on]

> A change in grip weight by 4 grams will change club swt. by 1 point [lighter grip increase swt.]


A change in grip weight does change the swingweight of the club, but does it really contribute to a change in performance?

Swingweight affects the heft of the club during your preshot waggle - i.e. when you're standing over the ball and wiggling the club back and forth w/ your wrist/arms. Would you feel the difference if the weight was under your hands?

Should swingweight be measured ONLY with a standard grip or should you measure it with the actual grip?

[TourIQ]

A change in grip weight does change the swingweight of the club, but does it really contribute to a change in performance?Hi RC

Since you are friends with Duane and he knows the answer to your question, then please ask him privately and do not repost his response.

Just remember this pir2, all the variables in golf contribute either + or – based on their current operating level [plus other factors]. Find the correct level for the particular golfer and s/he comes closer to an optimized state. This is why we mapped out a total of 150 Variables in Golf which can affect performance in some fashion or another. Obviously some variables will be super critical, but if you add up a few small ones they contribute to performance gains too.

Swingweight affects the heft of the club during your preshot waggle - i.e. when you're standing over the ball and wiggling the club back and forth w/ your wrist/arms. Would you feel the difference if the weight was under your hands?Yes, just install a Balance-Certified Golf counter balance weight in the top portion of the grip and you can feel the difference, even thought the swingweight dropped ~ 20 points. Now if the question is whether a golfer can feel the difference with a change of 2 to 4 grams from one grip to the next, I would say ‘no’ for practical purpose. I never install grips with a 2 to 4 gram weight variance, so I can’t even ask my customers for feedback on this concept, since to them it doesn’t exist.

Should swingweight be measured ONLY with a standard grip or should you measure it with the actual grip?I never use a standard ‘split / slit’ grip as they teach you to do in clubmaking school. I did in the early days but haven’t used this method for many years. I measure swingweight during dry assembly, before and after the actual grip is installed. I do not care what the swt. would yield based on a 50 gram standard grip weight.

[Weirfan]

for clarification purposes , here is some info I copied from a post on another site that really gets to the heart of the matter and truth about swingweight and grip weight and backweighting.

Swingweight is simply a measurement used to fine tune shaft flex - invented when the tools used to match clubs were a flex board and a gram scale. The swingweight scale was invented to fine tune this flex feel. Grips were not installed on the clubs when swingweight was measured.

When swingweight "standards" were created, the grip used to measure swingweight was always a 52g grip. Period. The products actual grip was installed later and swingweight was not remeasured.

Somewhere down the line, "modern" clubmakers decided that swingweight changes made when adding weight to the grip - since they could be measured - were somehow interesting. They are not.

I can swingweight a sledge hammer to D0. You will not be able to hit a ball with it or "feel" the clubhead or shaft flex. The same is true for golf clubs.

A club with a swingweight of C5 with a shaft that is too soft for the player will have plenty of head feel - regardless of what you do on the grip end with back-weighting.

A club with a swingweight of D5 with a shaft that is too stiff for the player will have no head feel regardless of what you do on the grip end.


We've backweighted thousands of clubs for many hundreds of golfers. If backweight made the head "disappear" we would never have had any success.

Head feel comes about through shaft flex - not swingweight.



The bottom line is that swingweight changes are only interesting if made with weight changes in the head or thru a heavier shaft. Changes to the weight of a club at the grip end do not affect head feel ............what swingweight really indicates.

There will however, be a change in overall feel of the club and static weight...this may be where confusion arises

[Shadow]

Wouldn't it be nice if all fitted clubs could be MOI matched instead of swing weight matched, in the same length of time??

Does it matter how the clubs FEEL when you waggle them? (SW) It really only matters how they feel when you swing them. (MOI)

Add to the MOI matching, clubs that have 1 constant frequency instead of 8, and golfers would have no reason to change clubs every year, looking for the magic bullet, that does not exist.

[Weirfan]

Wouldn't it be nice if all fitted clubs could be MOI matched instead of swing weight matched, in the same length of time??

Does it matter how the clubs FEEL when you waggle them? (SW) It really only matters how they feel when you swing them. (MOI)

Add to the MOI matching, clubs that have 1 constant frequency instead of 8, and golfers would have no reason to change clubs every year, looking for the magic bullet, that does not exist.

There are alot of clubmakers now building MOI matched sets ....sometimes using dofferent methods to get there. As you know it is an attempt to produce similar feel and playability across the set .........whether or not that translates to better performance or not , is debatable IMO....again it is one of a number of fitting parameters that needs to be addressed.....but I like the concept..........good clubmakers have been varying the swingweight ( ie building to a progressive sw) and the frequency slope and not adhering to a set or prescribed length progression between successive clubs for a long time now.....it was in a way a MOI built set......now there is just a method to quantify the process

The big problem I have with MOI is that the whole set is dependent on what the customer/player describes as his favorite club in the set and then matching and building to that...........It is a very subjective and unscientific assumption that can be swayed by many things so I am not sure that it is the best way????

combining similar feel ( as long as it is the proper set up for the individual) along with Dan's TLT ( true length technology) would seem to be a great way to go....that is what my next set I build for myself will be

swingweight matched sets are again for the lazy clubfitter and the OEM ...off the rack, one size fits all set....it is no way to build a set of clubs IMO....most decent clubfitters will utilize a progressive swing weight...but even still.....swingweight is typically the result of a properly fit set of clubs . not the goal...ie: it is not a primary fitting parameter....but something to at least keep an eye on

you will never ever get a set of off the rack clubs that are MOI and /or frequency matched....it would take way too long to assemble...or cost you triple what a set does now.

flat line frequency is not a good idea as a std for building a set of clubs....it can be used for some individuals but certainly is not something that is appropriate for all swings.

[LowPost42]

The big problem I have with MOI is that the whole set is dependent on what the customer/player describes as his favorite club in the set and then matching and building to that...........It is a very subjective and unscientific assumption that can be swayed by many things so I am not sure that it is the best way????

combining similar feel ( as long as it is the proper set up for the individual) along with Dan's TLT ( true length technology) would seem to be a great way to go...

Your first issue, that of picking the favourite club: Tom Wishon mentions in the included MOI 'readme' that it will most likely be a 6 to 8 iron.

Like you, I wonder why that is. Because it fits a TLT model for most players best? Because the increased loft makes for straighter shots? Perhaps we need to ask clients what their favourite FEELING club is - and MOI match to that.

As for your second paragraph, I've done just that - TLT lengths with an MOI match. Every club feels similar. There have been times at the range when I thought I'd grabbed my 8 iron when I've really grabbed my 5 (don't ask). I'm always amazed at how far I'm crushing my 8 - until I double check my bag and see that it's still there!

MOI matched TLT clubs seem pretty playable to me.

[dekker]

Interesting concepts which I tried to incorporate,but in my case it has always been primarily a "feel" issue . My driver is the lightest club overall yet the sw is where I like it at around E. My putter on the other hand is the heaviest club in the bag but sw is set at D2. My irons are mostly D2 with my 3,4 and SW at D5,by choice.