Looking For Forgiveness

[Bellyhungry]

Just wondering if someone can put the term forgiveness into comprehensible context with respect to irons.

When I browse golf magazines, the web or the local golf shops...I come across irons labeled as 1) player's irons for low-handicap, 2) game improvement - mid handicap, and 3)maximum forgiveness - high handicap

Sometimes I come across some rather goof looking irons (Cobra Carbon CB, for example. And someone is selling some very nice looking TM forged at the BST right now) but they are labeled as for low handicappers, which is beyond my ability. But the temptation is still there. Conversely, I have not found one good-looking maximum improvement iron set - they all look too chunky for me.

How big is the difference among these 3 categories? How do you define 'forgiveness' in everyday term?

In percentage term, are we talking about under 5 percent or over 10 percent either way?

For a mid handicapper, would the score worsen by a few strokes or A LOT of strokes if you play player's irons? Similarly, would the score improves by a few or by a lot of strokes if switch to maximum improvement irons?

Thanks in advance for those sharing their insights or thoughts.

[hoganapexplus]

How big is the difference among these 3 categories? How do you define 'forgiveness' in everyday term?

In percentage term, are we talking about under 5 percent or over 10 percent either way?

For a mid handicapper, would the score worsen by a few strokes or A LOT of strokes if you play player's irons? Similarly, would the score improves by a few or by a lot of strokes if switch to maximum improvement irons?

My feeling is that forgiveness relates to how good your mishits end up being. If you are playing 20 year old blades and are off the sweet spot even a fraction you get the big sting in the hands and the ball goes nowhere, so probably a 20% reduction in distance. Using todays MB you are looking at closer to 10% loss on a missed shot. I went from CB to Apex Plus MB about 7 years ago and there is certainly a learning curve but after you get your swing dialed in the benefits are great.
I think a mid cap would be better going to a MB than game improvement because they have already shown some good skills to get to that point and GI irons are really for folks trying to get the ball in the air, make solid contact etc. The lost strokes would quickly be refound after 10 rounds or so.
Just my $0.02

[hamiltonhacker]

I think this thread asks some really great questions and I am really interested in the responses, however can I plead that people in answering avoid acronyms and golf "jargon". The original post is asking for the meaning in "in everyday terms" and I for one find that I am not completely up to speed on the terms of art used in the golf world, especially about clubs and swing terms.

Hoganapexplus, your answer (and I don't mean to pick on you) was making sense to me until the point where you said "Using todays MB" :confused:, what's an "MB". You see my problem, if I don't know the meaning of that acronym the remainder of the answer does not make sense.:help:

Thanks in advance for being patient
Pat

[leftintherough]

MB= Muscle back

CB= Cavity back

[The Troll]

Looking for forgiveness for your anti-birthday rant? :D

Seriously, I found when I played forged irons that when they were good they were very, very good and when they were bad, well....

Oddly, I played the MB irons in my combo set far better than the CB irons.

One day at the range I noticed that my Ping Eye 2's tended to only lose a couple of yards on off center hits while my forged irons lost up to 20 yards. The PE2's have been in my bag since....forged feel great but my swing inconsistency means I score better with some forgiveness.

[TORAIDER]

I was talking to a club builder once and he mentioned that had an interesting time fitting one of his clients. I can not remember the characteristics of his client's swing, but in the end, his high HCer client ended up with MBs. It was the only irons that his client (based on their swing) could consistently hit well. I think the term forgiveness is used fairly loosely.

Forgiveness for most does not mean forgiveness to all. So to answer your question, I don't know..and I would not want to generalize.

Lastly, I was at Jeff's shop yesterday. I was looking at his Nakashima iron display. I had the NX5s and the NX1s side by side. The NX1s looked only marginally smaller while I compared them. I don't think I'd hesitate to try them.

[leftintherough]

Looking for forgiveness for your anti-birthday rant? :D


Oh the easy fodder! I bit my tongue as I so wanted to post - " You're Forgiven !" Alas, BH is thread crapping allergic!

[el tigre]

I think the term "forgiveness" applies to irons that:

a) do not lose a lot of distance on off-center hits. This was already discussed above - it is why "game-improvement" irons typically have larger, CB heads.

b) allow better contact on fat shots. IOW, forgiving irons typically have wider soles to help with fat shots and increase ball trajectory.

Of course, you can have varying degrees of forgiveness depended on head design, etc., but irons that try to maximize forgiveness usually try to maximize these two factors.

[hoganapexplus]

MB= Muscle back

CB= Cavity back

What he said. Didn't feel like typing out what I thought were fairly commonly known acronyms.
GI = game improvement

[guitarman]

I have not found one good-looking maximum improvement iron set - they all look too chunky for me.



The irons that I play are reccomended for a 6 to 26 handicap. I'm at the top of that range (26). They are not chunky at all. thier a midsized head with a thin topline. When I'm hitting them welll they are great but for me when they go wrong they can be really bad. I think they are more of a mid cap players iron. I never had near the mishits with my Callaway X-18s that I can get off my current irons. I have been tempted to go back to a super game improvement iron but I'm stubborn (I'll master these yet) and like you I hate the looks of the Super GI irons.

[danscustomgolfshop]

No matter how forgiving an iron head is designed to be - if the fit is not correct - you will not reap all the benefits.
Length and lie must be correct to the individual swinging the club. This will alone make less forgiving designs - more forgiving due to increased on center hits.
Ultra game improvement head will feel like butter as you will be striking the ball with more consistency.
Head design is an important fitting factor, but length and lie must be right period.

[leftintherough]

Sometimes I come across some rather goof looking irons (Cobra Carbon CB, for example. And someone is selling some very nice looking TM forged at the BST right now) but they are labeled as for low handicappers, which is beyond my ability. But the temptation is still there. Conversely, I have not found one good-looking maximum improvement iron set - they all look too chunky for me..

BH, I am completely in love with my Snake eye forgings since my first swing with them. They are a mid-size cavity back. A little longer and just a little thicker topline. I wasn't too sure at first in comparisson to the blades I were using unti I took my first swing and watched in awe as the ball smoked off the face and landed well past my normal distance for the particular club. I worked my through the bag and swing after swing was amazed at the distance and pentrating trajectory. These have helped 10 fold to improve my game and ball striking. Now and again I will have a misshit, but being more forgiving than a blade, the resultant miss hit travels much further forward with less sideways consequence. I can still hit fades and draws (on purpose) as well as my normal ball flight which is a slight draw or to a straight on flight.

Cavitity back forging for me is the way to go.

[Haste]

I purchased my first set of CB's (Mizuno MX-19) this year and wow have they helped my iron game. I was really amazed at how far the ball travels on mishits. I instantly hit the ball further and with higher trajectory. If you don't like the chunky look then the MX-19's are not for you but if you don't mind a thick topline with a slight oversized head then I highly recommend them.

[Bellyhungry]

Looking for forgiveness for your anti-birthday rant? :D


I thought if I don't contribute something pertinent to golf, I might get banned for loitering here...:rolleyes:

Technically, you can only get born once, so it should be birthday anniversay rather than just birthday...heheee

Oh the easy fodder! I bit my tongue as I so wanted to post - " You're Forgiven !" Alas, BH is thread crapping allergic!

I am not that touchy....no worries...

I think the term "forgiveness" applies to irons that:

a) do not lose a lot of distance on off-center hits. This was already discussed above - it is why "game-improvement" irons typically have larger, CB heads.

b) allow better contact on fat shots. IOW, forgiving irons typically have wider soles to help with fat shots and increase ball trajectory.

Of course, you can have varying degrees of forgiveness depended on head design, etc., but irons that try to maximize forgiveness usually try to maximize these two factors.

Here's where I need some help to understand...

In a), you say 'do not lost a lot of distance'. What is 'not a lot'? a few feet? a few yards?

As for b) what exactly does 'better' mean? would I go from say, 2 out 10 to 8 out of 10, or 2 out of 10 to 3 out of 10 good shots?

Ultra game improvement head will feel like butter as you will be striking the ball with more consistency

OK...Please put 'more consistency' to a quantitative term to help me understand...

[danscustomgolfshop]

Belly, the more consistency will come from the fact that with fitted clubs - the patron will have more 'on center ' hits due to a correct fitting. With a ultra playable clubhead where the margin of error is expanded by the headshape - off center hits will be less prone to the typical mishit result
My take - more consitant ball flight



OK...Please put 'more consistency' to a quantitative term to help me understand...

[el tigre]

Here's where I need some help to understand...

In a), you say 'do not lost a lot of distance'. What is 'not a lot'? a few feet? a few yards?

As for b) what exactly does 'better' mean? would I go from say, 2 out 10 to 8 out of 10, or 2 out of 10 to 3 out of 10 good shots?
In terms of distance, I'm talking about an off-center hit still getting 90-95% of the distance you would get from hitting the sweet spot. And it will feel better too.

In terms of better contact, an iron with a thin sole will tend to dig into the ground on fat shots while a wide sole will tend to bounce into the ball - so again you will retain more distance (how much depends on how fat your shot was). If you don't hit fat shots very often, then this is of little use to you.

[Bellyhungry]

Belly, the more consistency will come from the fact that with fitted clubs - the patron will have more 'on center ' hits due to a correct fitting. With a ultra playable clubhead where the margin of error is expanded by the headshape - off center hits will be less prone to the typical mishit result
My take - more consitant ball flight

So if I have 3 sets of irons...one in each category and they all are fitted by the same club fitter to my spec and same playing ability - same # of good hit, same # of mishits...

What would the difference be in term of strokes? I know it is not an exact science, but what would be the average/ball park #?

In terms of distance, I'm talking about an off-center hit still getting 90-95% of the distance you would get from hitting the sweet spot. And it will feel better too.

In terms of better contact, an iron with a thin sole will tend to dig into the ground on fat shots while a wide sole will tend to bounce into the ball - so again you will retain more distance (how much depends on how fat your shot was). If you don't hit fat shots very often, then this is of little use to you.

So in quantatative term, you believe there's a 5-10% variance in general?

[Albert Hacker]

I think people get too hung up worrying about buying equipment that is so-called aimed at their ability. In the end, the only thing that matters is the numbers on the score card!
There are lots of pros that play cavity backs and a helluva lot of amateurs that play muscle backs.

I think the best thing is to just buy clubs that feel right, produce solid shots and worry about scoring, not what other guys are thinking when they look at your bag...

[Bellyhungry]

I think people get too hung up worrying about buying equipment that is so-called aimed at their ability. In the end, the only thing that matters is the numbers on the score card!
There are lots of pros that play cavity backs and a helluva lot of amateurs that play muscle backs.

I think the best thing is to just buy clubs that feel right, produce solid shots and worry about scoring, not what other guys are thinking when they look at your bag...

You lost me with the second paragraph....Why do you presume I care what other people see or think about the clubs I use?

[danscustomgolfshop]

The miss hits are the key. You will get a little more out of the Ultraplayable head in terms of distance and possibly side spin. Blades - known for their workability will generate more sidespin (the workable part) causing this swing flaw to be maximized in terms of forgiveness more than the cavity.
As far as scoring, there may not be much - thats a loaded question. You will feel the differences.

So if I have 3 sets of irons...one in each category and they all are fitted by the same club fitter to my spec and same playing ability - same # of good hit, same # of mishits...

What would the difference be in term of strokes? I know it is not an exact science, but what would be the average/ball park #?

[Albert Hacker]

You lost me with the second paragraph....Why do you presume I care what other people see or think about the clubs I use?


The way you ask the question makes me think you might be conscious of what people are thinking Re: your gear, that's all.
It's a common theme, no offense.

[Bellyhungry]

The way you ask the question makes me think you might be conscious of what people are thinking Re: your gear, that's all.
It's a common theme, no offense.

I use an old socks for my driver cover, so I don't think I care what others think.

[leftintherough]

I use an old socks for my driver cover, so I don't think I care what others think.

Clean or dirty? If you really don't give a rats a$$, then it would have to be a dirty sock with holes in it!

[Bellyhungry]

Clean or dirty? If you really don't give a rats a$$, then it would have to be a dirty sock with holes in it!

It was dirty but I washed it. But you know those old socks even when they are washed, they still pick up lints that you can never remove?

I also use it as my putter cover.

I lost both as a result of riding cart :mad:

I use old socks because of their weird shape, I can't find after market cover that would fit properly.

[cdnputter]

I use an old socks for my driver cover, so I don't think I care what others think.

Did some homeless guy in a golf course parking lot give them to you? Aka Happy Gilmore's caddy?

[Bellyhungry]

Did some homeless guy in a golf course parking lot give them to you? Aka Happy Gilmore's caddy?

How'd you guess? Damned! You read mind or something or have you been stalking me? :eek:

[dekker]

Golf has been equated with a religious experience,of sorts,and so it must be,since we can buy forgiveness. :rofl:

I've always been intrigued with the forgiveness aspect myself.How much is really necessary? Will you get into "playuh" clubs when you think your ready or are you likely to keep playing improvement clubs? Chances are your going to go back to game improvement clubs anyway as you age.

Like some say,your mishits may be better, but at what point are you going to decide it's time to move forward?

[dstraus]

I might b e a little off topic here, but I am looking at some new forgiving clubs, the Cobra S9, anyone try them, or any thoughts?

[cdnputter]

How'd you guess? Damned! You read mind or something or have you been stalking me? :eek:

Otto caddied for me once, a long time ago. He's great at catching tossed clubs, ninja-like reflexes. :cool:

[cldale]

I would think forgiveness is a pretty personal decision. If you are pretty serious about improving (as I am) then perhaps a more "playuhs" club is worthwhile for the feedback it provides, regardless of your current skill level. This is precisely my situation... I am trying to improve so for me, hitting the fairway every time from the tee isn't more important that knowing whether I am making good solid contact with the ball. I'd rather be off the fairway and knwo I've done something wrong, than on the fairway but continuing in my mistakes.

But if I wasn't going to go to the driving range often and work on my swing, and if I wasn't interested in improving, just playing occassionally for fun, then I'd probably just get a set of max-improvement irons to make those outings are fun as I could.

But thats my own personal preference. Your milage may vary. So long as your enjoying yourself, I think whatever clubs you play with are fine.

Golf has been equated with a religious experience,of sorts,and so it must be,since we can buy forgiveness. :rofl:

I've always been intrigued with the forgiveness aspect myself.How much is really necessary? Will you get into "playuh" clubs when you think your ready or are you likely to keep playing improvement clubs? Chances are your going to go back to game improvement clubs anyway as you age.

Like some say,your mishits may be better, but at what point are you going to decide it's time to move forward?

[danscustomgolfshop]

A guy that wants to start working the ball will get far more benefit from the forged (cavity or non cavity). A cast club simply does not have the workability.
This is another reason I only play forged, not only can the setup be superior due to bendability, but the feel and performance is what I am looking for.

[cdnputter]

Currently I'm playing Titleist 704CB's, went to them last season figuring my game was ready for the forged. I found out immediately that a mis-hit now is much further offline and less distance than I had with my old Ping I-3's.

Do I want forgiveness? yepper! Do I want the feel of forged, yepper! What can I do about this? For me danscustomgolfshop is close enough that we're trying to coordinate a meeting so I can pick his brain and he can look at what I'm currently playing and make a recommendation.

Maybe he can help me lower my handicap from the 5 it's at now, to a 2 perhaps. At the worst case he'll help me decide between new OEM or Wishon/Maltby/SMT/Snake Eyes..... :D

[el tigre]

Currently I'm playing Titleist 704CB's, went to them last season figuring my game was ready for the forged. I found out immediately that a mis-hit now is much further offline and less distance than I had with my old Ping I-3's.

Do I want forgiveness? yepper! Do I want the feel of forged, yepper! What can I do about this? For me danscustomgolfshop is close enough that we're trying to coordinate a meeting so I can pick his brain and he can look at what I'm currently playing and make a recommendation.

Maybe he can help me lower my handicap from the 5 it's at now, to a 2 perhaps. At the worst case he'll help me decide between new OEM or Wishon/Maltby/SMT/Snake Eyes..... :D I'm predicting you'll have Wishon 560MC's in the bag before the snow flies...:D