WARRANTY EXPIRED THIS MORNING

[hogannut]

I was driving to work this morning and watched my odometer turn over to 60 000 km and now my amazing GM warranty is over. Hopefully my transmission won't fall out going home tonight! Actually I must admit my little Chevy Optra has been a good car so far. No issues except for control arm bushings that were replaced under warranty.

However, the service at GM dealerships is really bad. This is why North American car companies are still getting a bad reputation. The vehicles are fairly well built, but the service at the dealership level is so bad it makes the car look bad.

My dad was a loyal GM guy for 40 years and his last car he bought a Lexus. He loves the car because when he takes it in for service he is well treated and they fix the car properly the first time. He decided to try a Lexus over Buick because of a bad experience he had at the GM dealership when he had his Buick.

It has been over 30 years since outside competition started taking away market share from the "Big 3" and 3 decades later they still don't get it!!:eek: :hush: You can build the best car in the world but if you treat your customers poorly at the retail level (which is what dealerships are.....retail stores for cars) you will always have a bad reputation in the consumer mindset.:nono:

[guitarman]

I still drive my 98 Cavalier to work as I park in a downtown hamilton parking lot and no one there seems to care if they open thier doors in to your car so even though I should have replaced this car with a new one I think I'll just drive it in to the ground. Along the way this has been an excellent car requiring almost no repair. Hoping that this car will get me to next summer I'll probably replace it with an Optra. How is this car on gas? I need something very fuel efficient. My club hauler is a 2007 Uplander van and its a huge gas guzzler but I need the room for all the golf gear my wife and I pack.

[hogannut]

I love beaters. In fact this Chevy is the first new car I have bought in 20 years. I bought it because I got such a good deal on it. I was going to bet a good used car for about $10K and saw this 2004 Optra on the lot in April of 2005. They were clearing them out at dealer cost becaue it was a model year old. THey couldn't sell it because it was a 5 speed and didn't have air, so I got the car brand new with the basic GM warranty for $11 000, and was able to use $700 of GM VISA points, so I couldn't argue.

My car before that was a 5.0 Mustang I bought from a mechanic I know, it was his wifes car. I bought the car in 1998 for $2900, it was a 1986, automatic, which is just wrong for a 5.0 Mustang but she was an older lady who obviously didn't want to shift that heavy clutch. Anyway I drove for 7 years, did head gaskets once and that was it. THe body was pretty bad at the end, but the engine was still strong at 265 000 km.

Beaters are the best. Park them anywhere, doesn't matter, you only have to wash them when it rains! If you change the oil properly and maintain it safety wise beaters are the best value for what you pay.

It doesn't get much more classic than a 98 Cavalier!

[esidirop]

What year/model is it? Do gm's not have a 5/100km powertrain now??

I agree with you on the quality stuff, and the service as i've been there!!!!

The price of imports these days is getting unreal though.. im almost starting to think that the quality is not worth the askign prices.... Im in the market for a car now as my bmw lease is ending, and want to stick with an import, but i want to buy this time... so i figure a low mileage used 2year old car with warranty will fit the bill(acura/bmw/audi/volvo/toyota).. but guess what??these imports hold too much value and i cannot justify spending 30G's-35gs on a used car , plus interest and taxes.. its rediculous..... !!!

So now i figure... that even if i budgeted a 1000/year on domestic repairs(which is high), after 5 years, the price of the domestic plus maintenance is far cheaper.....

[guitarman]

I love beaters. In fact this Chevy is the first new car I have bought in 20 years. I bought it because I got such a good deal on it. I was going to bet a good used car for about $10K and saw this 2004 Optra on the lot in April of 2005. They were clearing them out at dealer cost becaue it was a model year old. THey couldn't sell it because it was a 5 speed and didn't have air, so I got the car brand new with the basic GM warranty for $11 000, and was able to use $700 of GM VISA points, so I couldn't argue.

My car before that was a 5.0 Mustang I bought from a mechanic I know, it was his wifes car. I bought the car in 1998 for $2900, it was a 1986, automatic, which is just wrong for a 5.0 Mustang but she was an older lady who obviously didn't want to shift that heavy clutch. Anyway I drove for 7 years, did head gaskets once and that was it. THe body was pretty bad at the end, but the engine was still strong at 265 000 km.

Beaters are the best. Park them anywhere, doesn't matter, you only have to wash them when it rains! If you change the oil properly and maintain it safety wise beaters are the best value for what you pay.

It doesn't get much more classic than a 98 Cavalier!

My Cavalier is in excellent shape body wise except for the baseball sized dent in one door where someone must have reefed open there door on it and the dents and scratches near the top of the door frame where someone broke in to my car and stole photography equipment and the minor scratches and scrapes from doors and people pulling in and out, all while parked in the downtown hamilton parking lot while I was at work. Sometimes I'd love to bring my brand new van to work but I just can't take the chance.
When I replace this car I'm thinking spending no more than $4,000 tops. Unless I get a job with its own private parking I don't want to spend 10,000+ on a car thats going to take a beating in the public parking lot.

[hogannut]

What year/model is it? Do gm's not have a 5/100km powertrain now??

I agree with you on the quality stuff, and the service as i've been there!!!!

The price of imports these days is getting unreal though.. im almost starting to think that the quality is not worth the askign prices.... Im in the market for a car now as my bmw lease is ending, and want to stick with an import, but i want to buy this time... so i figure a low mileage used 2year old car with warranty will fit the bill(acura/bmw/audi/volvo/toyota).. but guess what??these imports hold too much value and i cannot justify spending 30G's-35gs on a used car , plus interest and taxes.. its rediculous..... !!!

So now i figure... that even if i budgeted a 1000/year on domestic repairs(which is high), after 5 years, the price of the domestic plus maintenance is far cheaper.....

I guess because it was a clearance car I didn't get the full warranty. Typical GM though because when I was doing the final paperwork the girl just wrote in the extended warranty for $1600 for an additonal 20 000 km's. I noticed it and asked her, and she said...."that's your extended warranty". So I ask her what I get for my $1600 she says 20 000 km's of powertrain coverage. I told her I do 25 000 in a year so if she thinks I am going to pay $1600 for 8 months coverage she's on glue! I won't waste the keystrokes telling you about the rust proofing....I'm still in therapy for that one!:eek: :rofl:

My car was built in Korea at the Daewoo plant GM bought and I am very pleased with the build quality. No squeeks or rattles at the 2.5 year point. I also agree on the pricing for Toyota, Honda and Nissan. I looked at a Corolla and there was no way I was paying that much for a little 4 cylinder front drive car. My car is more or less the same for HALF of what a Corolla is. Time will tell if it holds up as well, but so far so good.

Again, this is where GM, FOrd and Chrysler are losing out. Trying to nickle and dime their customers. A buddy of mine had bought 2 Cadillac's from the same dealership over the last 20 years. There was an issue where the service advisor said his rotors would be replaced under warranty because they the dealership used the wrong ones, and when he came to pick up the car they said he owed the $220. He spoke to a parts manager and a service manager and got nowhere. He paid the $220 and ended up talking to the dealer principal (owner of the dealership) and told him that he hoped it was worth it for the dealership because they just lost a 20 year customer and a customer who ALWAYS got his car fixed at the dealership.

He got a bunch of "we're sorry you feel that way" but when push came to shove the dealership thought the $220 was worth losing the customer over.:nono: :confused:

[Big Shooter]

I hit the "magic" 100,000 km's on Saturday, was thinking the same thing!! :(

[discomonkey]

a month after my warranty expired, my car developed a mysterious electrical problem which resulted in the complete dismantling of the electrical system to find a short circuit that was, in the end, non-existent. if this problem showed up at 79999 km, it would have been a free diagnosis... in the end, because it occured at 81000 km, it cost nearly $3000 to find and fix the problem. :rolleyes:

[hogannut]

Did you follow up with any consumer groups? GM may have given something to you. Sorry to hear that, that really sucks!

[discomonkey]

Did you follow up with any consumer groups? GM may have given something to you. Sorry to hear that, that really sucks!

well, it's a VW and let's just say if you think GM has poor customer service... run as far away from VW as you can!!! Kind of a blessing in disguise though because that experience made me go out and find an amazing non-dealer mechanic that i totally trust now! he'll be my mechanic for all my future cars for as long as he's in business!

p.s. not sure if that comment was directed at my reply... if it wasn't disregard my message. :$

[Big Shooter]

well, it's a VW and let's just say if you think GM has poor customer service... run as far away from VW as you can!!! Kind of a blessing in disguise though because that experience made me go out and find an amazing non-dealer mechanic that i totally trust now! he'll be my mechanic for all my future cars for as long as he's in business!

p.s. not sure if that comment was directed at my reply... if it wasn't disregard my message. :$

Electrical problem, VW?
...I'm NOT surprised!!!:$

[dekker]

My trusty Rusty developed a knock 1/2 hour after I started reading this thread.
Just a hiccup in the air compressor. I had depressing visions of nefarious salesmen picking me over. But I'm Ok now.:rofl:

[ontario]

BWM service is great. Nice clean bays. A concierge. Globe and Mail. Latte. Leather couches. You feel great until you get the bill - a $300 oil change for example.

Do yourselves a favour, find a good independent mechanic. An independent won't stay in business long if he provides bad service. There are many techs who specialize in specific makes. There is no reason to go to the dealer for service - out of warranty or in.

[hogannut]

BWM service is great. Nice clean bays. A concierge. Globe and Mail. Latte. Leather couches. You feel great until you get the bill - a $300 oil change for example.

Do yourselves a favour, find a good independent mechanic. An independent won't stay in business long if he provides bad service. There are many techs who specialize in specific makes. There is no reason to go to the dealer for service - out of warranty or in.

Agree.....you get better service, however try to source an independent through friends/personal references. If you can't do it that way call CAA and they can recommend someone in your area.

[slicendice]

BWM service is great. Nice clean bays. A concierge. Globe and Mail. Latte. Leather couches. You feel great until you get the bill - a $300 oil change for example.

ah, I remember those days as if they were only last August...when I still had my Mini and was treated like a BMW owner...

Now I drive a Honda...so i figure I can just drop the truck off, walk across the street to Second Cup, grab a latte and a paper and still pay less than what I paid for an oil change at BMW...

not so bad...although I do miss the concierge service...

[Kace]

Uhmmm...no posts from HoganNut since yesterday...hopefully his car made it home. :D

[hogannut]

LOL....so far so good.

In some ways I'm glad the warranty is over. I have a very good mechanic I go when the car is out of warranty.

This is my latest dealership experience. I took the car in about 2 weeks ago to have it looked and scanned before the warranty expired. This car can only be scanned with a GM tool because it is a Korean car. Anyway for $49.95 they scan the car, rotate the tires, inspect, clean and adjust the brakes and all those things. I go to pick the car up and there is no notes on the repair order for the brakes. Usually when you get your brakes inspected you will get a % of what if left on the pads, of course no notes on the paperwork. I was still relatively happy though because the tires got rotated and i wanted to do that before the winter anyway. The next day driving to work the steering wheel starts shaking between 90-100 km's and then disappeares around 110 km. Obviously the rear tires that were rotated to the front were not checked for balancing as I had never had a shimmy issue prior to taking the car in.

I get n/c tire rotation from the tire store I bought the tires from, so I will take the car there and it is 5 minutes from work. I just figured when the dealership did it would save me a trip to the tire shop.

I called the dealership and was told to bring the car back and they'd take care of it, but it's another trip over to the dealership etc, etc.

OVer the 2.5 years I have owned the car I have had to go to the dealership on 3 occasions to have the car serviced. Those 3 occasions has resulted in 6 seperate visits to the dealerships because they either didn't have parts in stock or didn't fix the car properly the first time.

This is the exact thing I have been whining about. 6 trips to a dealership to address 3 issues. Why??? You pay a premium at the dealership level and get worse service than you do at an independent who is $10-$20 an hour cheaper than a dealership. Then the dealerships wonder why people only come for n/c warranty work and/or oil changes.

Hmmmm....I think I will go to Canadian Tire to buy zinc alloy golf clubs and pay $1000 for them, instead of going to say Golftown and buying forged Mizuno's for $800!!

[avidgolfer]

My major beef with GM, Ford and Chrysler is that they blame all their problems on the Pensions and Health care costs they pay to the retired workers.

Why are Toyota/Honda engines more powerful and fuel efficient? Oh, they don't have to pay retired workers.

Why is the dash plastic so cheap looking? Oh because we have to pay retired workers.

I understand that the pension payments are a huge burden for these companies but... if that causes you to make a crumby car because you had to shave $250 from the cost of the car, things are going to get worse not better.

So in the case of Hogannut's friend with the Caddy. The dealer probably wanted to fix the Caddy for free but was vetoed by HQ. Just to save a few hundred bucks because....... "We have retirees to pay" (Groan!)

[hogannut]

My major beef with GM, Ford and Chrysler is that they blame all their problems on the Pensions and Health care costs they pay to the retired workers.

Why are Toyota/Honda engines more powerful and fuel efficient? Oh, they don't have to pay retired workers.

Why is the dash plastic so cheap looking? Oh because we have to pay retired workers.

I understand that the pension payments are a huge burden for these companies but... if that causes you to make a crumby car because you had to shave $250 from the cost of the car, things are going to get worse not better.

So in the case of Hogannut's friend with the Caddy. The dealer probably wanted to fix the Caddy for free but was vetoed by HQ. Just to save a few hundred bucks because....... "We have retirees to pay" (Groan!)

Very valid point. IMO....within the next 10-20 years all vehicles will be built in the Pacific rim and exported from there. THe North American companies will own the plants and oversee quality and safety control, but when you can pay lower wages, lower benefits etc and build a product as good as is done in North AMerica why deal with these "whiners" in the unions.

The 1800's are over, there are laws now to protect the common worker from the mean old capitalists, so all you union guys enjoy while you've got it, because you won't have it much longer. My Korean built Chevy Optra is as well built as a North American Cobalt.

Like garbagemen it is ludricous to think you should be paid $60 000 per year to bolt fenders together, just like it is ludicrous to think you should be paid over $30K to throw garbage into a truck.

[esidirop]

BWM service is great. Nice clean bays. A concierge. Globe and Mail. Latte. Leather couches. You feel great until you get the bill - a $300 oil change for example.

Do yourselves a favour, find a good independent mechanic. An independent won't stay in business long if he provides bad service. There are many techs who specialize in specific makes. There is no reason to go to the dealer for service - out of warranty or in.

If you lease, bmw is the way to go.. a 07 323 fully loaded is 450 /month.. (less then a fully loaded accord,acura, camry or maza 6)!!!! and the best part? you pay for no: oil changes, maintenace , BRAKES thats right BRAKES!! for 4years/ 80km!!!

Your right though.. once the maintenance period up.. no services is worth 300$ unless its....................................??? lol

[Andru]

I would agree to some extent but GM has more assembly plants in NA than Honda or Toyota. SO they DO have a gigantic Health care bill in the US. That doesn't mean they can't build and back their cars. I have a great story about the lack of customer care and outright lying from GM HQ's. I mean it's like they've never heard of the internet.

Quick version.
1) Had had tire problems, 6k on the tires.
2) dealer said because of hard driving ( Ridiculous been driving sports cars fo 20 years never had issue )
3) Called HQ's said "Never had this issue with this car"
4) Went online found a car club website. and found 20 ppl in GTA with same problem and all reported to gm HQ'
5) One person spoke to the same gm rep I spoke to a week earlier!!
6) I said fix this or youv'e lost a customer for life. They did nothing
7) $1200 out of my pocket. for new tires and Gm has lost a customer and many more because I've shared this with at least 2000 people and will continue to do so.

I think the worst part is they lied outright and said I was the only one. When confronted with this they still denied it. Amazing.

My major beef with GM, Ford and Chrysler is that they blame all their problems on the Pensions and Health care costs they pay to the retired workers.

Why are Toyota/Honda engines more powerful and fuel efficient? Oh, they don't have to pay retired workers.

Why is the dash plastic so cheap looking? Oh because we have to pay retired workers.

I understand that the pension payments are a huge burden for these companies but... if that causes you to make a crumby car because you had to shave $250 from the cost of the car, things are going to get worse not better.

So in the case of Hogannut's friend with the Caddy. The dealer probably wanted to fix the Caddy for free but was vetoed by HQ. Just to save a few hundred bucks because....... "We have retirees to pay" (Groan!)

[hogannut]

I would agree to some extent but GM has more assembly plants in NA than Honda or Toyota. SO they DO have a gigantic Health care bill in the US. That doesn't mean they can't build and back their cars. I have a great story about the lack of customer care and outright lying from GM HQ's. I mean it's like they've never heard of the internet.

Quick version.
1) Had had tire problems, 6k on the tires.
2) dealer said because of hard driving ( Ridiculous been driving sports cars fo 20 years never had issue )
3) Called HQ's said "Never had this issue with this car"
4) Went online found a car club website. and found 20 ppl in GTA with same problem and all reported to gm HQ'
5) One person spoke to the same gm rep I spoke to a week earlier!!
6) I said fix this or youv'e lost a customer for life. They did nothing
7) $1200 out of my pocket. for new tires and Gm has lost a customer and many more because I've shared this with at least 2000 people and will continue to do so.

I think the worst part is they lied outright and said I was the only one. When confronted with this they still denied it. Amazing.

I can beat this one!!

The wife had a 2000 Neon. The first winter she drove the car she was coming home and it was raining....not snowing, raining. Anyway she slid into a car in front of her and rear ended him, total cost of accident $5000. Her insurance rates went from $1300 to $2400. She figured she was follwing to close and chalked it up to human error. She got through the winter and in the spring the car slid again in the rain and hit another car. We paid for that out of pocket, $900 to the other car and a dent in her rear quater pannel. So she figured the Goodyear Eagles were no good in bad weather and we decided to get some all season tires. Now my wife is a good driver and prior to this car had a PERFECT driving record, that now has been destroyed for 6 years.

We start off at Canadian Tire, they don't stock the size. I was shocked, it's not a Ferrari it's a Neon! I finally find some all season tires in her size made by Cooper (great tires BTW) and off she goes to a Cooper dealer. As she is getting the tires put on she is telling the counter guy her story and he says to her...."Neon's with this tire size hydroplane because the tires are to wide for the weight of the car, it's a known fact in the industry".

So we go to the dealership to ask them and we get a bunch of "umm....well...there is "possiblity" of this". Then the service advisor tells us to put a cinder block in the trunk to weigh the car down. My wife looks at him and says..."this is what Chrysler wants me to do, put cement blocks in my trunk when the kids are sitting in the back seat?" We put 2 bags of kitty litter in and it did help in the rain, but in the snow forget it you might as well have skates on the road.

Due to the fact her insurance almost doubled and we had to pay out almost a thousand dollars on the 2nd accident we never got the dent fixed on the car. We did some research on-line and found many sites confirming the story we were told at the tire store that the tires were to wide and caused the car to hydroplane (the new Dodge SX's have a thinner tire size now...go figure:mad: ). Anyway the wife's father is a lawyer and told us to return the car "as is" and advise the dealership they need to absorb the cost of the dent to avoid a lawsuit. He felt we would have a good chance in court given the fact of what we were advised to do by a Chrysler dealership.

So when the car was brought back from the lease we told the dealership what had happened and why we felt the least they could do is bang out the dent so the car could be re-sold. We put new brakes on it, steam cleaned the interior and brought the car back in perfect condition 20 000 km's below what she was allowed to put on as per her lease. We explained our position to the dealership and how and why we felt Chrysler should be fixing the car for re-sale. All they would have to do is bang the dent out and paint, no parts needed to be replaced. The car was returned to Chrysler in 2004. Before we returned it we took it to 3 independent body shops and got estimates between $500-$800 to fix the car.

FOr the last 3 years we have been harrased by at least 6 different collection agencies for $1600, the cost to fix the dent according to Chrysler. At the beginning we tried to be nice and explain our position. THe collection agencies were not interested in discussing it, only in collecting the $. So we just started saying to them to PLEASE sue us because our counter clain against Chrysler was going to be a lot more than $1600. We are still getting calls about this, in fact we had one on Tuesday night.

The car was brought back in 2004 with 80K on it. It had new brakes and a detailed interior, and almost new tires (we put the Coopers on around the 65K mark). If a body shop could have repaired the dent and painted it for $500 to the customer I'm sure the dealership cost would have been no more than $300.

THis was the 3rd Neon she had bought from this dealership, she never had a hydroplaining issue with her 2 previous Neon's. So for about $300 Chrysler lost a 10+ year customer, when they themselves knew that the car had a problem. She bought a KIA and although there have been issues with this car they have all been fixed under warranty and she was given loaner cars when the car was being fixed. As for Chrysler....more nerve than a bad tooth IMO.

Sorry for the novel!

[discomonkey]

I can beat this one!!

The wife had a 2000 Neon. The first winter she drove the car she was coming home and it was raining....not snowing, raining. Anyway she slid into a car in front of her and rear ended him, total cost of accident $5000. Her insurance rates went from $1300 to $2400. She figured she was follwing to close and chalked it up to human error. She got through the winter and in the spring the car slid again in the rain and hit another car. We paid for that out of pocket, $900 to the other car and a dent in her rear quater pannel. So she figured the Goodyear Eagles were no good in bad weather and we decided to get some all season tires. Now my wife is a good driver and prior to this car had a PERFECT driving record, that now has been destroyed for 6 years.

We start off at Canadian Tire, they don't stock the size. I was shocked, it's not a Ferrari it's a Neon! I finally find some all season tires in her size made by Cooper (great tires BTW) and off she goes to a Cooper dealer. As she is getting the tires put on she is telling the counter guy her story and he says to her...."Neon's with this tire size hydroplane because the tires are to wide for the weight of the car, it's a known fact in the industry".

So we go to the dealership to ask them and we get a bunch of "umm....well...there is "possiblity" of this". Then the service advisor tells us to put a cinder block in the trunk to weigh the car down. My wife looks at him and says..."this is what Chrysler wants me to do, put cement blocks in my trunk when the kids are sitting in the back seat?" We put 2 bags of kitty litter in and it did help in the rain, but in the snow forget it you might as well have skates on the road.

Due to the fact her insurance almost doubled and we had to pay out almost a thousand dollars on the 2nd accident we never got the dent fixed on the car. We did some research on-line and found many sites confirming the story we were told at the tire store that the tires were to wide and caused the car to hydroplane (the new Dodge SX's have a thinner tire size now...go figure:mad: ). Anyway the wife's father is a lawyer and told us to return the car "as is" and advise the dealership they need to absorb the cost of the dent to avoid a lawsuit. He felt we would have a good chance in court given the fact of what we were advised to do by a Chrysler dealership.

So when the car was brought back from the lease we told the dealership what had happened and why we felt the least they could do is bang out the dent so the car could be re-sold. We put new brakes on it, steam cleaned the interior and brought the car back in perfect condition 20 000 km's below what she was allowed to put on as per her lease. We explained our position to the dealership and how and why we felt Chrysler should be fixing the car for re-sale. All they would have to do is bang the dent out and paint, no parts needed to be replaced. The car was returned to Chrysler in 2004. Before we returned it we took it to 3 independent body shops and got estimates between $500-$800 to fix the car.

FOr the last 3 years we have been harrased by at least 6 different collection agencies for $1600, the cost to fix the dent according to Chrysler. At the beginning we tried to be nice and explain our position. THe collection agencies were not interested in discussing it, only in collecting the $. So we just started saying to them to PLEASE sue us because our counter clain against Chrysler was going to be a lot more than $1600. We are still getting calls about this, in fact we had one on Tuesday night.

The car was brought back in 2004 with 80K on it. It had new brakes and a detailed interior, and almost new tires (we put the Coopers on around the 65K mark). If a body shop could have repaired the dent and painted it for $500 to the customer I'm sure the dealership cost would have been no more than $300.

THis was the 3rd Neon she had bought from this dealership, she never had a hydroplaining issue with her 2 previous Neon's. So for about $300 Chrysler lost a 10+ year customer, when they themselves knew that the car had a problem. She bought a KIA and although there have been issues with this car they have all been fixed under warranty and she was given loaner cars when the car was being fixed. As for Chrysler....more nerve than a bad tooth IMO.

Sorry for the novel!

what a crappy deal... i can't believe how short sighted some of these dealers are... all they care about is today's deal and nothing about their future sales.

just curious... have you checked your credit report ever since the collection agencies have been calling you? i would think that they would try their hardest to destroy your credit while you're still in bad standing with them.

[hogannut]

what a crappy deal... i can't believe how short sighted some of these dealers are... all they care about is today's deal and nothing about their future sales.

just curious... have you checked your credit report ever since the collection agencies have been calling you? i would think that they would try their hardest to destroy your credit while you're still in bad standing with them.


We didn't "break" the lease so unless there is a judgement against us it cannot be reported to the credit bureau. When we brought the car back we did not sign any paperwork, and told the dealership our position. The reason why this is getting bounced around from one collection agency to the next is there is NO WAY Chrysler will ever sue us because they know we have a better than 50/50 chance of winning.

It's not as cut and dry as say a VISA where you have signatuers etc. BTW a VISA charge is not considered legitimate unless a signature can be varified. THerefore an internet purchase can be disputed because there is no signature.