Thank you from KaneffGolf

[kaneffgolf]

I want to thank the TGN contributors for their feedback this season. Some of which influenced our decision to renew our emphasis on service levels.

Despite horrendous weather pre mid-May, KaneffGolf experienced significant growth this season. We are extremely pleased with these results, and pledge to continue to improve our service and provide value opportunities through our email club and Kaneff Rewards Points.

We thank you for playing our courses and look forward to seeing you again in the future.

[Big Shooter]

Refreshing! :)

[corchard]

I'm glad that Kaneff is paying attention.

[hamiltonhacker]

I'm glad that Kaneff is paying attention.

Yes, whetever knocks they may take from posts here, they are on the site, responding by stating their position and, as Kaneffgolf's posting says, taking our opinions into account in their business decisions. Good for them. They take the heat, which has been intense at times, and have dealt with it with as handle says, up front, identifying who they are.

By way of contrast, to my knowledge, we have not heard from Club Link or Golf North in spite of the equally spirited criticisms of those organizations.

Bravo Kaneff. :clap::clap::beer:

[Happyhooker]

Good for Kaneffgolf. I'm glad they had a good year. I play more than half my rounds at their courses, and with the exception of the odd slow round, I've generally had great experiences.

[Bellyhungry]

I personally am interested in the specifics of the improvement made.

I frequented Lionhead a few times over the last couple of year. Customer service was never the problem in and around the pro shop.

[RobertThompson]

Given the frequent and consistent complaints about almost all Kaneff courses over the course of the summer, I left wondering what part they listened to and acted upon. Personally I don't know -- I don't play their courses. However, I find it interesting that someone can simply come on here and say they've listened and taken action, and many applaud them. Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff?

[golferboy]

Lets see how long it takes to play royal ontario next year!
What position in the organization does this poster hold? If it aint Iggy...then nothing will be done...except increase the fees...

Given the frequent and consistent complaints about almost all Kaneff courses over the course of the summer, I left wondering what part they listened to and acted upon. Personally I don't know -- I don't play their courses. However, I find it interesting that someone can simply come on here and say they've listened and taken action, and many applaud them. Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff?

[kingplayer]

Given the frequent and consistent complaints about almost all Kaneff courses over the course of the summer, I left wondering what part they listened to and acted upon. Personally I don't know -- I don't play their courses. However, I find it interesting that someone can simply come on here and say they've listened and taken action, and many applaud them. Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff?

I agree with Robert. Before I get all worked up and start applauding Kaneff Golf for starters I would like to know who exactly KaneffGolf is on here? What position does he hold in the organization and does he have the authuority to make announcements like this? I know one thing, I haven't had a good experience at a Kaneff course in a long long time. Pace of play and course conditions are always sub par in my opinion for what they are charging. They will have to prove to me that they are improving things in a big way (improved pace of play for example) before I put my money down at one of their courses.

[BeLikeBen]

I don't have any complaints about them other than one slow round this summer. I frequent Century Pines for their twilight rates and it's a pretty good deal - the course has low traffic and the conditioning great, even during the drought.
I have low expectations about service - I just want to hand the guy my money, play (without delays), and get out of there.

[Big Shooter]

Lets see how long it takes to play royal ontario next year!
What position in the organization does this poster hold? If it aint Iggy...then nothing will be done...except increase the fees...

I thought it was a nice gesture (i.e. "Refreshing"), but I agree, it's gonna take alot to get ME back to Royal Ontario in particular!;)

[el tigre]

Given the frequent and consistent complaints about almost all Kaneff courses over the course of the summer, I left wondering what part they listened to and acted upon. Personally I don't know -- I don't play their courses. However, I find it interesting that someone can simply come on here and say they've listened and taken action, and many applaud them. Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff? I think businesses who take the time to say thank you to their customers should be applauded. It doesn't happen often enough.

Whether or not they've listened and taken action on customer service issues is for their customers to decide. Since you've admitted that you're not one of them, I'm left wondering why you are questioning it.

[racmbs]

Given the frequent and consistent complaints about almost all Kaneff courses over the course of the summer, I left wondering what part they listened to and acted upon. Personally I don't know -- I don't play their courses. However, I find it interesting that someone can simply come on here and say they've listened and taken action, and many applaud them. Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff?

Glad you said it Robert, because I certainly had to bite my tongue when I saw this post by them. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever, as they make no mention of what action they were taking against specific complaints people made about the organizations courses.

[RobertThompson]

I think businesses who take the time to say thank you to their customers should be applauded. It doesn't happen often enough.

Whether or not they've listened and taken action on customer service issues is for their customers to decide. Since you've admitted that you're not one of them, I'm left wondering why you are questioning it.

You wonder why I'm questioning it? Because I think that a "thank you" is hollow if it actually doesn't mean anything. And it appears, from some of the other remarks on this thread, that there is a question about whether there's been any action to back up the words.

[guitarman]

You wonder why I'm questioning it? Because I think that a "thank you" is hollow if it actually doesn't mean anything. And it appears, from some of the other remarks on this thread, that there is a question about whether there's been any action to back up the words.

I took le-tigre's post more to mean, why the heck do you even care to comment on courses that you've never been to or have much interest in going to. You have nothing invested yet you wanna have the right to question. I would think the people posting that have actually played these courses might have more impact by asking.

[RobertThompson]

I took le-tigre's post more to mean, why the heck do you even care to comment on courses that you've never been to or have much interest in going to. You have nothing invested yet you wanna have the right to question. I would think the people posting that have actually played these courses might have more impact by asking.

You misunderstand me -- I have played them all (or pretty much all -- I went to a wedding at Century Pines, so I don't know if that counts). I even had free passes one year for Lionhead, but couldn't be bothered to use them, especially given the ultra-slow pace of play I'd witnessed.

[trunckslammer1]

You wonder why I'm questioning it? Because I think that a "thank you" is hollow if it actually doesn't mean anything. And it appears, from some of the other remarks on this thread, that there is a question about whether there's been any action to back up the words.

The only thing is to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like Customer surveys, we can always hope that they will listen. Using the Mystery Shopper that goes to restaurants is one way that some restaurants have gone to great lenghths to stay competitive.

[kingplayer]

The only thing is to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like Customer surveys, we can always hope that they will listen. Using the Mystery Shopper that goes to restaurants is one way that some restaurants have gone to great lenghths to stay competitive.

If I'm not mistaken I think KaneffGolf went on this improved customer service thing before. It may just have been Lionhead for this year. But I for one saw no difference in the coditining part of the course and pace of play. Like has been said on here and other threads on here I could care less if I'm picked up in the parking lot or whatever. I do have expectations on course conditions compared to what I pay and the pace of play better be under control no matter where I play. Kaneff has consitantly failed on both counts numerous times, in fact ALL the time. There are other places to play and I will play elsewhere.

[el tigre]

You wonder why I'm questioning it? Because I think that a "thank you" is hollow if it actually doesn't mean anything. And it appears, from some of the other remarks on this thread, that there is a question about whether there's been any action to back up the words. It appears to me that their are quite a few positive comments in this thread as well. Maybe you're only reading the ones you agree with. So perhaps things have improved at Kaneff courses - or perhaps not. If you don't go there, how would you know???

I also don't understand why you are criticizing members who are applauding them for promising to make positive changes. Stating your promises in a public forum makes you accountable for them - which will no doubt help in the execution of them. I'm sure those same members who are applauding them now will be taking them to task if no improvements are made.


Is that because it makes certain people on this forum pleased to think they're having influence on Kaneff? Perhaps they do - perhaps it is TGN itself that is having an influence on Kaneff. Who knows? Do you think you have a monopoly when it comes to influence on golf course owners?

[akrus]

Stating your promises in a public forum makes you accountable for them

Can hardly be accountable as an annonymous poster on an internet forum...

Not saying that this person isn't involved with KG, but how do any of us know? True, it would be odd to come out here and speak on behalf of the course while not having anything to do with them, but the internet is home to weird... :cookoo:

Also, if the person is someone involved with KG, hopefully they have been able to bring some of what's said here to the table and some things will change for the better. However, changes can come slowly. The negative comments that have been posted in this thread can only be counter-productive, especially if those involved have sworn not to go back, etc.

Personally, I've only had problems with one marshal at Carlisle that was power-hungry and one slow round at Royally slow Ontario, but that hasn't stopped me from playing and enjoying their other courses.

One thing I know is that we are lucky that we live in an area that has so much choice, we can each vote with our dollars as to where we want to play. The fact that KG courses seem to be fairly busy is a good indication to me that they are doing something right.

[RobertThompson]

Perhaps they do - perhaps it is TGN itself that is having an influence on Kaneff. Who knows? Do you think you have a monopoly when it comes to influence on golf course owners?

Nope -- the public talks with their dollars. In the end they are the barometer of taste. Maybe the golf nuts have had an influence -- we'll see!

[Frank101]

The only Kaneff course I have ever played is Carlisle and based on that experience I have not and will not return.

However, having said that, I must say my last stop at a Kaneff course (Lionhead to be more specific) was great even though I wasn't a paying customer. Lets just say I had to make an "emergency," unplanned morning pitstop on my way to a golf course out in Gerogetown if you know what I mean ;) ;) and there was a very nice shuttle operator waiting in the parking lot to transport me to the pro shop and back....woops...wait...I don't think he was there just for me although it seemed that way based on the lack of cars in the parking lot.

Anywho, Kaneff...apology or not = good emergency pitstop and longgggggggg rounds of golf with average to below average service and mediocre golf courses.

Will I go back and golf based on the apology from an anonymous user on this forum who so happens to have the word Kaneff in his username? No, I won't, although my emergency pitstops will be alot more comfortable.

[guitarman]

You misunderstand me -- I have played them all (or pretty much all -- I went to a wedding at Century Pines, so I don't know if that counts). I even had free passes one year for Lionhead, but couldn't be bothered to use them, especially given the ultra-slow pace of play I'd witnessed.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I read the part where you said you don't play their courses and I saw nothing to indicate that you had played their courses. That being said I agree with those that want to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they mean what they say when they talk about improving.

[Anthony]

I know who KG is and do know they listen.... I have had good experiences this year at Lionhead & RO and was lucky to play in off hours the majority of the time, so pace of play was never an issue. The one time we teed off a weekend afternoon on Legends we ditched our very slow partners, had 2 foursomes let us play through and were done in under 4 hours, so I guess I was very lucky. I had a very good marshall at RO discuss the course prior to tee off so that was a positive as there are many posts commenting specifically on Starters.

Rates, especially RN, Century, Carlisle..... are very good with the Kaneff E-mail club and at least Lionhead too offered some decent Fees and specials throughout the year.

Frankly Robert Thompson I know it was discussed earlier this summer when people questioned Eagle's Nest and how empty it appeared, their lack of motivation to attract golfers, their Greens Fees and lack of specials, you jumped to their defense, quoting that they had plenty of rounds played. Yet here you question KG admitting not to have played in many years.

My one concern with Lionhead in particular and I have posted prior is that it is too penal a course, not meant for the mid/high handicapper or short hitter (both of which I am, but a fast golfer) as there is little room for error and too many precise shots and forced carries on the course. Also the difference from the Blues to the Whites on Legends I think is some 700-800 yards. This and the fact that rounds can be long are a result of the course difficulty. To that the Marshalls need to help golfers play the right tee or pick up the pace. As an aside and for comparison purposes, I played Angus Glen twice in October, and while the Slope may be comparable, AG plays much easier.....

The fact is that KG does pay attention, and while you can question pace of play or your opinions of the course, it is not fair to question their sincerity or participation on this site.

[leftintherough]

I played RN 4 times this year during the weekday just after lunch as a strictly corporate outing. The staff at the front and on the course were all helpful. There was only one slow foursome we had to contend with and the player's assistant got us in front of them at the turn. All rounds were completed in less than 5 hours so on the whole I was quite pleased with the outings. After each round the front counter staff always inquired about the round and how if anyway they could improve the service. They did share a chuckle with me as one of my foursomes had three very high cap golfers that burned through 4 dozen balls that were purchased that day.

[Bellyhungry]

Kudos to KG for expressing their gratitute and a lot of people have responded in kind.

Now, is someone going to answer the question of what specific improvement have been made due to the voice of TGN?

[dekker]

I think KG has to be commended for responding to the TGN members and taking our concerns seriously. There's no point to scouring this local forum unless one wishes to improve their service which I am sure they will.


Just one point. I hope that in the interest of making the whole experience more enjoyable the players will be encouraged to play from the appropriate tees . All those *star* players are causing the back-ups.

[kingplayer]

I think KG has to be commended for responding to the TGN members and taking our concerns seriously. There's no point to scouring this local forum unless one wishes to improve their service which I am sure they will.


Just one point. I hope that in the interest of making the whole experience more enjoyable the players will be encouraged to play from the appropriate tees . All those *star* players are causing the back-ups.

This is not the only cause for slow play. I am sure players playing from the wrong tee deck will not speed up play, but the biggest reason for slow play is the wrong tee time interval. I have debated/discussed this fact on past threads here. The right tee time interval and proper marshalling will help improve pace of play more than having the handful of players who play from the wrong tee decks play from the correct ones. Just my humble opinion of course.... :)

[cdnputter]

This is not the only cause for slow play. I am sure players playing from the wrong tee deck will not speed up play, but the biggest reason for slow play is the wrong tee time interval. I have debated/discussed this fact on past threads here. The right tee time interval and proper marshalling will help improve pace of play more than having the handful of players who play from the wrong tee decks play from the correct ones. Just my humble opinion of course.... :)

Really? I've seen people stranded on teedecks because they're not able to hit the fairway from the back tees. If they tried playing from a tee deck that might be more in their playing range, they'd be able to hit a decent teeshot that would put them on a fairway. In your example would you have a marshall follow every group? Just my opinion, ;)

[kingplayer]

Really? I've seen people stranded on teedecks because they're not able to hit the fairway from the back tees. If they tried playing from a tee deck that might be more in their playing range, they'd be able to hit a decent teeshot that would put them on a fairway. In your example would you have a marshall follow every group? Just my opinion, ;)

Ummmm excuse me but if you read what I said, players playing from the wrong tee decks IS NOT THE ONLY REASON for slow play. Sure a group that doesn't play from the right tee decks will have an effect on pace of play. But I guarantee you that the wrong tee time interval will have a bigger impact on slow play than a group playing the wrong tee decks. I can't believe I'm going down this path again on pace of play!! :eek:

[guitarman]

This is not the only cause for slow play. I am sure players playing from the wrong tee deck will not speed up play, but the biggest reason for slow play is the wrong tee time interval. I have debated/discussed this fact on past threads here. The right tee time interval and proper marshalling will help improve pace of play more than having the handful of players who play from the wrong tee decks play from the correct ones. Just my humble opinion of course.... :)

Oh gawd here we go again. Its completely ridiculous to think that playing the wrong tee decks slows down play. Unless you only hit it 100 yards. If you don't find the fairway and are constantly looking for your ball then it doesn't really much matter what tee deck you hit from.
I've followed people that after every drive they are taking their next shot from about 50 yards from the tee deck. I myself hit many in to the woods or in places that I have a hard time finding the ball. What makes me quicker is that I don't have the attention span to bother looking for my ball for any longer than 10 to 30 seconds. Unless play is slow anyway and others are helping I might look a little longer. Whether I play from the whites or the blues I can play down the fairway just as quick. Its developing the habits of ready golf that makes you quick regardless of what tee deck you play from.

[Anthony]

Oh gawd here we go again. Its completely ridiculous to think that playing the wrong tee decks slows down play. Unless you only hit it 100 yards. If you don't find the fairway and are constantly looking for your ball then it doesn't really much matter what tee deck you hit from.
I've followed people that after every drive they are taking their next shot from about 50 yards from the tee deck. I myself hit many in to the woods or in places that I have a hard time finding the ball. What makes me quicker is that I don't have the attention span to bother looking for my ball for any longer than 10 to 30 seconds. Unless play is slow anyway and others are helping I might look a little longer. Whether I play from the whites or the blues I can play down the fairway just as quick. Its developing the habits of ready golf that makes you quick regardless of what tee deck you play from.

Lionhead unfortunately is one of the toughest courses when it comes to the choice of tee decks.... Legends 1 is a perfect example (and there are probably 7-8 similar holes)..... The Gold, Black, and Blue tees all require somewhere between 240-280 (the whites are in the valley, which like Glen Abbey's famous 11th, which no so-called male would ever play from ;) ) in the air to reach the wide part of the fairway. Any shot shorter you have a narrow fairway guarded by water left and sand right. Once in the valley you still have 170 to the green over water and bunkers to a narrow green..... So in conclusion, you not only need to play the right tees, but then also to have the game.....

[Big Shooter]

Oh gawd here we go again. Its completely ridiculous to think that playing the wrong tee decks slows down play. Unless you only hit it 100 yards. If you don't find the fairway and are constantly looking for your ball then it doesn't really much matter what tee deck you hit from.
I've followed people that after every drive they are taking their next shot from about 50 yards from the tee deck. I myself hit many in to the woods or in places that I have a hard time finding the ball. What makes me quicker is that I don't have the attention span to bother looking for my ball for any longer than 10 to 30 seconds. Unless play is slow anyway and others are helping I might look a little longer. Whether I play from the whites or the blues I can play down the fairway just as quick. Its developing the habits of ready golf that makes you quick regardless of what tee deck you play from.

Exactly, you're either a SLOW player or a FASTER player, all you have to do is be aware of YOUR position on the course!

So in conclusion, you not only need to play the right tees, but then also to have the game.....

...but it takes the change/fun/challenge out of playing the SAME course time and time again!! :rolleyes:

[Anthony]

Exactly, you're either a SLOW player or a FASTER player, all you have to do is be aware of YOUR position on the course!



...but it takes the change/fun/challenge out of playing the SAME course time and time again!! :rolleyes:

At the end of the day it's about being aware, playing ready golf and playing at a good pace.

We played 4 holes @ Lionhead with 2 guys in their early 20's.... They were 10-15 handicappers playing Lionhead for the first time and were hitting it wonderfully and had played the first 4 in about 1-3 over.... We however finished the forth and just teed off on the 5th as there was already a hole open as these two were beyond slow....

[Big Shooter]

At the end of the day it's about being aware, playing ready golf and playing at a good pace.

We played 4 holes @ Lionhead with 2 guys in their early 20's.... They were 10-15 handicappers playing Lionhead for the first time and were hitting it wonderfully and had played the first 4 in about 1-3 over.... We however finished the forth and just teed off on the 5th as there was already a hole open as these two were beyond slow....

that's where you BECOME (2) twosomes!!!! ;)

[kaneffgolf]

Wow – slow play. Where do I begin.

Is slow play caused by having too many golfers on the course, or players hitting from the wrong tees, or the playing style of the golfer, or poor marshalling? This debate can go on forever.

Last year, in an effort to speed up play on the Legends course, Lionhead changed their tee-off intervals from 8 minutes to 10 minutes. One would think that a reduction of 25% in available tee times would solve the slow play problem. Unfortunately, this did not solve all the problems. Interestingly, there were days where they sold every single tee time, and never fell behind on the first tee and had a pace of play in the 4:40 range. Then there were days where they weren’t nearly as busy, yet the first tee fell behind and the pace was in the 5:30+ range. In analyzing these days, it was determined that the playing conditions were similar (scatter cart rule) and the marshalling schedules were similar. The only variable was the demographic of the golfers. Perhaps some of these golfers were playing from inappropriate tees. Perhaps there were some more novice golfers who were struggling. Perhaps there were some expert golfers who were grinding it out in serious matches. Or, perhaps there were a number of groups who did not know how (or were not willing) to play ready golf. I imagine that the slow play was a result of a combination of all these factors, with the latter (ready golf) being the biggest.

Playing the proper tee decks is obviously important, both for the enjoyment of the game and pace of play. Despite having multiple tee decks, Lionhead originally had only 4 sets of tees. Back in the days before political correctness, they used to be referred to as: championship tees, pro tees, men’s tees and ladies’ tees. About seven years ago it was finally realized that many male golfers (beginners, seniors, short hitters, etc.) who should be playing the forward red tees were reluctant to do so because historically red tees were for ladies. To address this Lionhead created a fifth set of tees (the whites) and placed them, in most cases about 5-10 yards behind the forward tees. Yes there were some players switching to these new tees because they were NOT the red ladies’ tees. However, times have changed. Rarely do people now refer to the reds as ladies’ tees. Mostly they are called forward tees. Currently, we see a lot more men playing from the red tees. And, as Anthony has mentioned in previous posts, there exists too great a spread between the blues (6400+) and the whites (5500-). For the average golfer who doesn’t have a lot of distance, 6400+ can be too much course if the layout has as many hazards as Lionhead’s. However, for these golfers, 5500- is not challenging enough. Therefore, beginning next season, the white tees will be moved further back to the 6000 yard range. Hopefully this option will make the game more enjoyable for these golfers, and hopefully help to speed up play in general.

[kingplayer]

Wow – slow play. Where do I begin.

Is slow play caused by having too many golfers on the course, or players hitting from the wrong tees, or the playing style of the golfer, or poor marshalling? This debate can go on forever.

Last year, in an effort to speed up play on the Legends course, Lionhead changed their tee-off intervals from 8 minutes to 10 minutes. One would think that a reduction of 25% in available tee times would solve the slow play problem. Unfortunately, this did not solve all the problems. Interestingly, there were days where they sold every single tee time, and never fell behind on the first tee and had a pace of play in the 4:40 range. Then there were days where they weren’t nearly as busy, yet the first tee fell behind and the pace was in the 5:30+ range. In analyzing these days, it was determined that the playing conditions were similar (scatter cart rule) and the marshalling schedules were similar. The only variable was the demographic of the golfers. Perhaps some of these golfers were playing from inappropriate tees. Perhaps there were some more novice golfers who were struggling. Perhaps there were some expert golfers who were grinding it out in serious matches. Or, perhaps there were a number of groups who did not know how (or were not willing) to play ready golf. I imagine that the slow play was a result of a combination of all these factors, with the latter (ready golf) being the biggest.

Playing the proper tee decks is obviously important, both for the enjoyment of the game and pace of play. Despite having multiple tee decks, Lionhead originally had only 4 sets of tees. Back in the days before political correctness, they used to be referred to as: championship tees, pro tees, men’s tees and ladies’ tees. About seven years ago it was finally realized that many male golfers (beginners, seniors, short hitters, etc.) who should be playing the forward red tees were reluctant to do so because historically red tees were for ladies. To address this Lionhead created a fifth set of tees (the whites) and placed them, in most cases about 5-10 yards behind the forward tees. Yes there were some players switching to these new tees because they were NOT the red ladies’ tees. However, times have changed. Rarely do people now refer to the reds as ladies’ tees. Mostly they are called forward tees. Currently, we see a lot more men playing from the red tees. And, as Anthony has mentioned in previous posts, there exists too great a spread between the blues (6400+) and the whites (5500-). For the average golfer who doesn’t have a lot of distance, 6400+ can be too much course if the layout has as many hazards as Lionhead’s. However, for these golfers, 5500- is not challenging enough. Therefore, beginning next season, the white tees will be moved further back to the 6000 yard range. Hopefully this option will make the game more enjoyable for these golfers, and hopefully help to speed up play in general.


While many debate was causes slow play, there are those who are experts in what causes slow play. KaneffGolf, I suggest you visit http://pacemanager.com You may already have heard of Bill Yates who runs this company but if not do yourself a favour and contact him. His knowledge in this area is second to none. Lots of people THINK they know what causes slow play and many others just have opinions. Bill Yates KNOWS and can solve the problem once and for all for any course that wants to have the slow play problem disappear.

[skt07]

While many debate was causes slow play, there are those who are experts in what causes slow play. KaneffGolf, I suggest you visit http://pacemanager.com You may already have heard of Bill Yates who runs this company but if not do yourself a favour and contact him. His knowledge in this area is second to none. Lots of people THINK they know what causes slow play and many others just have opinions. Bill Yates KNOWS and can solve the problem once and for all for any course that wants to have the slow play problem disappear.

Why spend money on an expert when you can just move the white tees for free? I'm SURE this will solve the problem of the 6 hour round at Lionhead.

The only variable was the demographic of the golfers.


So basically you're saying that the demographic that frequents your course on those 5.5+ days is COMPLETELY different from the demographic of golfers that play at other courses that consistently keep rounds under or around 4.5 hours?

It's nice to see that Kaneff is blaming its customers for the slow play. It couldn't POSSIBLY be anything the course itself is doing.

[RobertThompson]

That's a good point. Build an overly penal golf course, with small greens and lots of forced carries and what have you got? The recipe for slow play.

That's why these sorts of courses function better as member's courses than as public tracks and why Kaneff will always struggle in trying to build a membership at its courses. Members want to play in reasonable times.... not 5.5. hours.

[kingplayer]

"Why spend money on an expert when you can just move the white tees for free? I'm SURE this will solve the problem of the 6 hour round at Lionhead."

skt07: It is not as simple as moving the tee decks forward. Would you have every course put the tee decks 100 yards from the green?? I don't think so and I know this is an example of taking it to the extreme. Pace of play is determined and controlled by many factors. The most important aspect of pace of play is how the golf course is "loaded" or tee time interval. The correct way of loading a golf course or tee time interval is determined by many factors such as:

length of rough
difficulty of the course
average handicap of players
placement of hazards
distance of course from most commonly used tees
carts only, cart paths only, walking permitted
distance from centre of green to next tee deck
placement and offerings of half way house
use of beverage cart
All of these variables will influence pace of play. Why go to an expert you say? I have seen the reports these "experts" produce and the effect the proper tee time interval will produce and it is well worth the money you invest with these "experts".

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone has their own ideas and beliefs on what will fix the problem. The proper tee time interval on the Legends could be 20 minutes apart if all players played from the back tees and could be 11 minutes if everyone played from the blue tees. I don't know this for sure but it is just an example. Like I have stated there is no question that players playing from the wrong tee decks will influence pace of play, but not to the degree that the wrong tee time interval will.

Like Bill Yates, the pace of play guru once told me, "there will always be slow golfers, the right tee time interval gives you the opportunity to identify them and fix the problem". Please visit his website to better understand pace of play. The address is posted in a previous posting on this thread. :)

[Big Shooter]

length of rough
difficulty of the course
average handicap of players
placement of hazards
distance of course from most commonly used tees
carts only, cart paths only, walking permitted
distance from centre of green to next tee deck
placement and offerings of half way house
use of beverage cart





mmmm, BULLET points, nice touch! ;) :cool:

[akrus]

mmmm, BULLET points, nice touch! ;) :cool:

Everything in BOLD detracted from it's usefulness, however. In the above case where the poster wanted to make everything bold, I would have suggested adding:


COLOURto make things easier to read

:D

[kingplayer]

Everything in BOLD detracted from it's usefulness, however. In the above case where the poster wanted to make everything bold, I would have suggested adding:



COLOURto make things easier to read

:D


Wow I haven't been critiqued this bad since I was in school, which was a very loooong time ago!! :p

[skt07]

"Why spend money on an expert when you can just move the white tees for free? I'm SURE this will solve the problem of the 6 hour round at Lionhead."

skt07: It is not as simple as moving the tee decks forward. Would you have every course put the tee decks 100 yards from the green?? I don't think so and I know this is an example of taking it to the extreme. Pace of play is determined and controlled by many factors. The most important aspect of pace of play is how the golf course is "loaded" or tee time interval. The correct way of loading a golf course or tee time interval is determined by many factors such as:
length of rough
difficulty of the course
average handicap of players
placement of hazards
distance of course from most commonly used tees
carts only, cart paths only, walking permitted
distance from centre of green to next tee deck
placement and offerings of half way house
use of beverage cart
All of these variables will influence pace of play. Why go to an expert you say? I have seen the reports these "experts" produce and the effect the proper tee time interval will produce and it is well worth the money you invest with these "experts".

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone has their own ideas and beliefs on what will fix the problem. The proper tee time interval on the Legends could be 20 minutes apart if all players played from the back tees and could be 11 minutes if everyone played from the blue tees. I don't know this for sure but it is just an example. Like I have stated there is no question that players playing from the wrong tee decks will influence pace of play, but not to the degree that the wrong tee time interval will.

Like Bill Yates, the pace of play guru once told me, "there will always be slow golfers, the right tee time interval gives you the opportunity to identify them and fix the problem". Please visit his website to better understand pace of play. The address is posted in a previous posting on this thread. :)


The sarcasm was obviously missed by some.

A retroactive ":rolleyes:" for all.

[Big Shooter]

this....is.....why.....I'm UNIVERSALLY......loved, and revered!!! :D :$

[akrus]

this....is.....why.....I'm UNIVERSALLY......loved, and revered!!! :D :$

Not true, it's mostly because you're the "stern voice of god"

;)

and dks_34 told us we had to... :p

Keep in mind, however, that you're reckless and carefree use of periods is certain to put you in the bad books amongst those that matter :p

Wow I haven't been critiqued this bad since I was in school, which was a very loooong time ago!! :p

It's only because we care :p

[dekker]

I am flabbergasted by the reluctance of some in admitting that the the real cause of slow play is slow or struggling players! No amount of interval time will make up for that, they'd only think they have more time to screw around!
It's pathetic to hear this constant blaming of courses when the real problem are the players themselves and always will be. Take a gut check and get real.

Don't play Legends from the blues till your ready! Like so many others of its type it was never meant for high handicappers to "test themselves" from the wrong tees.

[Fiji]

I am flabbergasted by the reluctance of some in admitting that the the real cause of slow play is slow or struggling players! No amount of interval time will make up for that, they'd only think they have more time to screw around!
It's pathetic to hear this constant blaming of courses when the real problem are the players themselves and always will be. Take a gut check and get real.

Don't play Legends from the blues till your ready! Like so many others of its type it was never meant for high handicappers to "test themselves" from the wrong tees.

I totally agree with you! We played Copetown recently and the interval was 15 min between the group in front of us. The group in front of them (4some)started from the whites and it was long gone in a good pace. This guys (3some) decided to play the blues. It was around 8 degrees and windy. 2 of them went OB on the right and the last one went on #9 fairway. We started 15 min behind them and we were already backed up on the second hole. We played the gold tees and we were 4. This guys were simply playing the WRONG tees!!! IMO they should've played the red...at least. We played through and within 7 holes we left 2 holes gap in between them and us.
So I don't think that even 20 min interval would make up for guys like this....and Copetown is very forgiving from the tees....

[kingplayer]

I totally agree with you! We played Copetown recently and the interval was 15 min between the group in front of us. The group in front of them (4some)started from the whites and it was long gone in a good pace. This guys (3some) decided to play the blues. It was around 8 degrees and windy. 2 of them went OB on the right and the last one went on #9 fairway. We started 15 min behind them and we were already backed up on the second hole. We played the gold tees and we were 4. This guys were simply playing the WRONG tees!!! IMO they should've played the red...at least. We played through and within 7 holes we left 2 holes gap in between them and us.
So I don't think that even 20 min interval would make up for guys like this....and Copetown is very forgiving from the tees....

You are correct to a certain degree, but believe me, the proper tee time interval based on the criteria listed here before will give all players a chance to play in a set amount of time. The closer the tee time interval the more chance of over loading and slower rounds. Look at it this way, if the tee time interval was 5 minutes how do you think the pace of play would be for a group starting in the middle of the day compared to say a tee time interval of one hour? Again stupid example but it does show the point.

What the proper tee time interval does is give the golf course operator the ability to identify a slow group and correct the problem. The wrong tee time interval just produces an over crowded course where it can be very difficult to identify who is slow and who is not. Like I said before there will always be slow players no matter what tees they play from, this is an unfortunate fact. But with the proper tee time interval and properly trained marshalls the problem of slow play can be reduced drastically.

Maybe I should put on a TGN seminar on pace of play problems and solutions..........:rofl: :rofl: :hush:

[Fiji]

Maybe I should put on a TGN seminar on pace of play problems and solutions..........:rofl: :rofl: :hush:

You should work for Bill Yates;) :D There is no better employee than one that shares your vision:p

[kingplayer]

You should work for Bill Yates;) :D There is no better employee than one that shares your vision:p

And there is no better boss than a boss who knows what he is talking about!;) :p :D

[hoganben]

So basically you're saying that the demographic that frequents your course on those 5.5+ days is COMPLETELY different from the demographic of golfers that play at other courses that consistently keep rounds under or around 4.5 hours?

It's nice to see that Kaneff is blaming its customers for the slow play. It couldn't POSSIBLY be anything the course itself is doing

- I agree with the above, otherwise we would be complaining about every golf course in Ontario - by blaming the golfer Kaneff will never improve. Why would any golfers start to talk about slow golfers? Do slow golfers only play Kaneff courses? Get real.

-I played Royal Niagara again this summer (my friend is a sucker for deals -I am sure he shops at Sears when they have 40% off of their regular overpriced merchandise). I was surprised at how grumpy most of the staff was. Maybe they aren't allowed to go to the washroom or something. I was also surprised that the GPS (or Skycaddie or whatever) was gone from the carts. Pace of play wasn't to bad, but I am guessing that it was because it was raining.

-I always like it when guys talk about how slow the pace of play is at a course and other guys claim to have been their at the same time and not to have noticed any slow play except for maybe the dead guys laying in the fairway ahead of them. WAKE UP! YOU ARE THE SLOW GUYS! That is why you have no complaints about the pace of play. The other day I played a local course in 2 hours (walking) . When the slow or dead guys are on the course it takes me 4.5 or 5 hours to play the same course. That's 2.5 hours of standing/walking at a snail's pace. You slow guys are probably the same guys that drive on Highway 53 at 55 km/hr in the 80 zone because you know that no one is allowed to/ or can pass you for a few miles. You probably say -"Ethel, this is great, there is no one is ahead of us to slow us down to 40 km".

[sharkhark]

I played carlisle a couple times this season, horrible conditions, great layout. I played lionhead a couple times in a group booked by one of their starters and experienced absolutely horrible treatment, very poor customer service. I played century pines a few times and was shocked that despite a drought at area courses, they were in pristine condition at low prices. I played streetsville glen while bulldozers worked around me moving sewage and stench ridden soile in preparation for building homes while killing the course.

Some good, mostly bad. Kaneff overall failed me this year.

[guitarman]

WAKE UP! YOU ARE THE SLOW GUYS! That is why you have no complaints about the pace of play. The other day I played a local course in 2 hours (walking)

WAKE UP. Quit playing as a single behind foursomes.

[el tigre]

This thread has run its course