carts passing over the greens

[nearace]

bayview golf and country club is allowing big wheeled push carts and electronic caddies to walk over there greens ,they say faster rounds and less wear on the entry and exit points around the green are a benefit,this is from fairways magazine .and this is a private course, crazy?

[100 plus]

I have the Sun mountain electric 3 wheeled cart that GT discontinued. I would never consider taking it across the green.
Ok maybe on a raining day to make apath from my ball to the hole.


Just Kidding Honest

[Frank101]

I really never understood what the problem with passing a push/pull cart over the green is as long as you don't place the pull cart on the green and off to the side, but simply push/pulling across the green, in my mind, doesn't seem to be a problem.

The machines they use to cut and the weight of a person are both MUCH heavier than any pull cart and bag and the wheels would act as a roller almost wouldn't they?

I don't know maybe I'm wrong on this one.

[The Troll]

bayview golf and country club is allowing big wheeled push carts and electronic caddies to walk over there greens ,they say faster rounds and less wear on the entry and exit points around the green are a benefit,this is from fairways magazine .and this is a private course, crazy?

My course just cut large grass areas out around the greens due to push cart wear & tear and replaced them with new sod.

I understood that Bayview went this route to reduce wear & tear.

[hamiltonhacker]

I really never understood what the problem with passing a push/pull cart over the green is as long as you don't place the pull cart on the green and off to the side, but simply push/pulling across the green, in my mind, doesn't seem to be a problem.

The machines they use to cut and the weight of a person are both MUCH heavier than any pull cart and bag and the wheels would act as a roller almost wouldn't they?

I don't know maybe I'm wrong on this one.

You're probably right, at worst a manual cart and bag may weigh forty or fifty pounds with the weight spread between two to three wheels, versus 200 lb guy on two feet. the pressure per square inch on the green from the cart wheels is probably less then the feet. I would maybe be more concerned about the weight per square inch of an electric cart with the extra weight of the motor and battery.

The other thing that would concern me would be the edges of the wheels and the fact that they roll across the green, if the wheels were at all hard edged, even with little weight, they may act like a pizza cutter on the turf.

[dekker]

It's bad enough that soft spikes leave a much bigger imprint on the green than any steel spiked shoe,but to consider wheel tracks a non-issue as well would be over the top. Some players would park them on the green and it would look like crap out there in no time.
I wouldn't play a course that allowed it.

[Frank101]

It's bad enough that soft spikes leave a much bigger imprint on the green than any steel spiked shoe,but to consider wheel tracks a non-issue as well would be over the top. Some players would park them on the green and it would look like crap out there in no time.
I wouldn't play a course that allowed it.

I don't think people would park their carts on the greens if the rules stated that you can pass over the green but not park on the green....the rules now say don't pass over the greens....so all you would do is change it to don't park you pull carts on the greens...and presumably...people would follow that rule...there are always a few people who don't listen, even now.

[rbaker]

That is ridiculous, there needs to be some order to the game. If we can push or pull our carts across the green what is next.
People tend to get offended when someone steps in their line, but dragging a cart across the green is okay!
My cousin from brampton Golf club shakes his head when I then try not to do it now, drag my cart across tee-boxes!

I watched a guy do it at Centenial park across the green last December and couldn't believe my eyes.

It will never be accepted. The guy at Bayview is opening up a big can of worms and you can bet the members are peeved.

RB

[Frank101]

it's funny how we question the knowledge of a professional greenskeeper... Someone who has studied, worked and lived as a greenskeeper and knows more than we will ever know about what is good and not good for conditioning....rolling pull carts across greens is common practice in alot of countries around the world (I believe Australia and New Zealand do it according to fairways) and I have personally seen it done at a few courses in Ireland....I don't see how this is ridiculous or creating chaos in the game of golf

I dont feel any cans were opened except for that of someone being the first to start something that will benefit all golf courses in the long run. I say, hopefully other courses will take notice and start doing the same thing.

[rbaker]

Oh brother. Its you again!
Sure do a poll on the members and see what they say! Lets see those who say its okay and those who say its not! Where would you place your bet?
Who are we to say, we just dole out half our paychecks to play on them!
I recently found a nice nail all jiggity in my plastic tire. and mud, and crap and rocks. My cart also tends to tip and everything come falling out of it. That too is all common.
Couldn't care less about what other countries accept or do not accept, its not acceptable here.

CARE FOR THE COURSE

As golfers, one of the best things we can do is take care of the course we are playing. We are asking you to do your part.

Repair ball marks on the greens. This is one of the most important things you can do to help keep the golf course in top shape. If you unsure how to fix a ball mark, ask at the Pro Shop.
Replace your divot.
Rake footprints in the Bunkers.
Walk carefully on the greens and be cautious around the hole.
Keep power carts at least 30 feet from the tees and putting surface.
Do Not take divots while taking practice swings on Fairways or Tees.
Please do not drag Pull Carts between the Greens and Greenside Bunkers.
Please do not place drag Pull Carts across Greens or Tees.


RB

it's funny how we question the knowledge of a professional greenskeeper... Someone who has studied, worked and lived as a greenskeeper and knows more than we will ever know about what is good and not good for conditioning....rolling pull carts across greens is common practice in alot of countries around the world (I believe Australia and New Zealand do it according to fairways) and I have personally seen it done at a few courses in Ireland....

I dont feel any cans were opened except for that of someone being the first to start something that will benefit all golf courses in the long run. I say, hopefully other courses will take notice and start doing the same thing.

[Carlton]

Thom Charters has been doing an excellent job at Bayview. His work has earned Bayview one of the top 10 best conditioned courses in Canada. Anyone reading the Fairways article will know that it also doesn't hurt to have the presidents of the CPGA and RCGA as club members.

The greens haven't shown any signs of wear or damage from having pull or push carts walked through the greens. It's a weird and such a taboo feeling to walk a cart across the green but the greenside rough have never looked in better shape than it has this season.

[Frank101]

Oh brother. Its you again!
Sure do a poll on the members and see what they say! Lets see those who say its okay and those who say its not! Where would you place your bet?
Who are we to say, we just dole out half our paychecks to play on them!
I recently found a nice nail all jiggity in my plastic tire. and mud, and crap and rocks. My cart also tends to tip and everything come falling out of it. That too is all common.
Couldn't care less about what other countries accept or do not accept, its not acceptable here.

CARE FOR THE COURSE

As golfers, one of the best things we can do is take care of the course we are playing. We are asking you to do your part.

Repair ball marks on the greens. This is one of the most important things you can do to help keep the golf course in top shape. If you unsure how to fix a ball mark, ask at the Pro Shop.
Replace your divot.
Rake footprints in the Bunkers.
Walk carefully on the greens and be cautious around the hole.
Keep power carts at least 30 feet from the tees and putting surface.
Do Not take divots while taking practice swings on Fairways or Tees.
Please do not drag Pull Carts between the Greens and Greenside Bunkers.
Please do not place drag Pull Carts across Greens or Tees.


RB

At Bayview the overwhelming majority said yes...thats why it was done, plus most members don't know much about conditioning of a golf course...thats why they pay a super so much to take care of it. Usually they base their decisions on his/her advice. Just wondering...how much say do you have at Wyndance :D I guess since your paying so much they should have advised you on things such as the type of sand they are using...types of grasses and pesticides etc. and let the members choose.

I dont know, but did you bring your golf clubs through a construction site? Also, your shoes build up mud and crap and rocks...I guess you should walk barefoot?

With your cart falling over so often and nails in your wheels, I'm glad your mostly playing at Wyndance...please stay away from Station Creek or the other CL courses for that matter....I think it's expected that members either use the pull carts provided or take care of the pull carts they own.

[dekker]

In my opinion carts,of any kind,have no business being near a green to begin with.I carry and will walk around the perimeter of a green rather than cut across in order to minimize the impact.
If you are on or near the green and just need a putter and wedge what is so difficult about placing your cart off to the side on the path to the next hole?
People have a tough time with proper etiquette as it is. You just know the first time somebody takes a shortcut with the cart across somebody's line hell will fly, and it will happen.

I've already seen ignorant Yahoos driving motorized carts around the perimeter of the greens. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile every time.

I don't know why but the idea and its possible acceptance seems vulgar to me.

[guitarman]

I don't see a problem walking around a green. I don't feel the need to pull my cart over a green. But if experts say it won't hurt the green I'd go with that. I wonder if being able to pull a cart across a green if it would help speed up play? If so, and it didn't hurt the greens, then I'd be all for it.

[Bellyhungry]

Heavy people do more damage to greens than pull carts.

As for Bayview GC, if the management is okay with that, I'd say 'let them roll'....

Mr. Baker,

You got yourself a stalker...:D

Oh brother. Its you again!
Sure do a poll on the members and see what they say! Lets see those who say its okay and those who say its not! Where would you place your bet?
Who are we to say, we just dole out half our paychecks to play on them!
I recently found a nice nail all jiggity in my plastic tire. and mud, and crap and rocks. My cart also tends to tip and everything come falling out of it. That too is all common.
Couldn't care less about what other countries accept or do not accept, its not acceptable here.

CARE FOR THE COURSE

As golfers, one of the best things we can do is take care of the course we are playing. We are asking you to do your part.

Repair ball marks on the greens. This is one of the most important things you can do to help keep the golf course in top shape. If you unsure how to fix a ball mark, ask at the Pro Shop.
Replace your divot.
Rake footprints in the Bunkers.
Walk carefully on the greens and be cautious around the hole.
Keep power carts at least 30 feet from the tees and putting surface.
Do Not take divots while taking practice swings on Fairways or Tees.
Please do not drag Pull Carts between the Greens and Greenside Bunkers.
Please do not place drag Pull Carts across Greens or Tees.


RB

[davevandyk]

bayview golf and country club is allowing big wheeled push carts and electronic caddies to walk over there greens ,they say faster rounds and less wear on the entry and exit points around the green are a benefit,this is from fairways magazine .and this is a private course, crazy?

I don't really see the problem with this. You either have a 200 pound guy carrying a 30lb bag on his back walking across the green, or you have a 30lb bag on a 10lb pull cart.

I have never understood how pulling your cart across the green was illegal, but carrying a bag across the green isn't. I guess its easy to police against the cart.

[Bullet3535]

rbaker, why don't you and italfrank just ..... and get it over with.

I am so over it.

[hamilton9977]

rbaker, why don't you and italfrank just ..... and get it over with.

I am so over it.

I am actually howling laughing as I am typing this. "It's you again" is hilarious!!!

[slightdraw]

Speaking from a turf standpoint, I have the education and experience about greens and compaction issues. Of course the lightwheels of a pullcart aren't going to damage a green, we drive carts on greens when we topdress to sweep the sand in. If it were my course though, I would hope the membership would have the decency to keep off the greens with everything but themselves and the putter, to me its a respect issue in that more money is spent on greens maintenance than any other area of the course, just because someone says its OK, doesn't mean you should. I don't think its a big deal to walk around a green and leave the pullcart in the rough, I'd rather see the rough compacted than a green.

[goshawk]

On one hand, I don't see a problem with carts being pulled/pushed across a green under "normal" circumstances, as long as the green isn't juicy from recent hard rains. The result would seem pretty obvious.....nice parallel tracks on the green. It would seem it's less damaging than a 240lb man carrying a 20-30lb golfbag walking the same direction, especially if he's "dragging" his feet.
On the other hand, is it THAT much more inconvenient to take those few extra steps and walk around the green and leave it in the rough? I personally wouldn't care that the "entry/exit points" on the side of the green is a bit "worn" because everyone parks their pull carts there. Hopefully, I won't be hitting an approach shot to that area and have to chip from a hardpan anyway. Personally, I feel it's respect for the following golfers that won't have to deal with my "tracks" on the green, no matter how subtle they are.

[Frank101]

On one hand, I don't see a problem with carts being pulled/pushed across a green under "normal" circumstances, as long as the green isn't juicy from recent hard rains. The result would seem pretty obvious.....nice parallel tracks on the green. It would seem it's less damaging than a 240lb man carrying a 20-30lb golfbag walking the same direction, especially if he's "dragging" his feet.
On the other hand, is it THAT much more inconvenient to take those few extra steps and walk around the green and leave it in the rough? I personally wouldn't care that the "entry/exit points" on the side of the green is a bit "worn" because everyone parks their pull carts there. Hopefully, I won't be hitting an approach shot to that area and have to chip from a hardpan anyway. Personally, I feel it's respect for the following golfers that won't have to deal with my "tracks" on the green, no matter how subtle they are.

I think everyone is missing the point of why it's being done....most golf clubs are finding it very expensive to fix the areas around the greens that are being damaged and taking the pull carts across the green or tees for that matter just DOES NOT cause any probelms. It's been done this year at Bayview and its still one of the best conditioned courses in Canada (proof that this idea may be a good one) and thats ignoring examples from many many clubs around the world. Also, its done to increase the pace of play (since they realize its becoming a BIG problem for the club and the game of golf in general). It has nothing to do with the "hassle" of bringing the cart around the green or the convenience of going across the green...it's avoiding the time it takes for someone to take their carts around the green. Sure this may not work at a public club where people don't care, but nobody is suggesting they do it at public clubs. For a private club, it will not be a problem.

[goshawk]

Frank, I do understand that it MAY not cause any damage to drag carts across the green. But just how much time will be saved to make a dozen or so extra steps to go around the green, just in case your cart wheels might happen to dig in a bit and cause a rut? Or are we arguing just for arguments sake? Think about the golfers following you, particularly on rainy days or after a good overnight soaking. The greens are going to be soggy, and if you look where you've walked you'll see your footprints. What do you think will happen dragging a 30lb bag behind you? Just be courteous and walk around the green. It won't take that much more time, and I'm sure the golfers behind you will appreciate it.

[slightdraw]

Its crazy to think that letting people take pullcarts across the green will speed up play. How much longer does it take to walk your cart to the rough, 12 seconds? At the course I work at we put through 28,000 rounds a year and 70 % of the rounds are walkers with carts and the rough looks great, not everybody walks and puts the carts in the same spot. Also it is not expensive to fix worn down areas in the rough, you can resod a 20 by 20 area for 80 bucks, which is much more cost efficient than having to aerify areas of the green because I guarantee that traffic patterns will develop where golfers are walking with their pullcarts and those areas of the green will suffer. I can't believe the members of this club would even want this, sounds like laziness to me.

[Leftygolfer30]

I for one would never take a pull cart across a green - regardless if a course allowed it or not.

There is no way on earth that doing so would save any significant amount of time. I'm all for keeping a good pace of play i.e. not having to wait on every shot, etc. but how much time is really going to be saved?

What's next? Making people sprint to their ball to speed up play? :rolleyes:

[Frank101]

okay...by some peoples logic here...it sounds like you believe this superintendent decided to let people go over the greens for no apparent reason.

Remember, everything is done for a reason. In this case, after a year of experimenting based on professional opinion it worked. So whether you agree or not is somewhat pointless to the situation. If every course implements it and find it works, there will be nothing anyone can do about it.

[slightdraw]

You're right Italfrank, everything is done for a reason. In this case the super was tired of hearing his lazy members complain about having to walk an extra 20 feet to the rough so he said to hell with it. Its actually pretty smart on his behalf, if they complain the greens are slow next year he can say its because they are putting across a ridge from pullcarts. Smart guy. What does define this system working? faster play-no way, won't change a thing, better greens-no way, there will be a wear mark by July, happy members-maybe, but the ones that truly love the course won't bring their pullcart anywhere near the green.

[hamilton9977]

I for one would never take a pull cart across a green - regardless if a course allowed it or not.

There is no way on earth that doing so would save any significant amount of time. I'm all for keeping a good pace of play i.e. not having to wait on every shot, etc. but how much time is really going to be saved?

What's next? Making people sprint to their ball to speed up play? :rolleyes:

Lefty,

I absolutely agree with you. If Bayview wants to move forward with this craziness they should institute a rule whereby if you choose to walk across the green with a pull cart you MUST at least repair 5 ballmarks (or any one you see). I've played on many private courses and unrepaired ballmarks are the bane of any greenskeepers existence.

[Frank101]

You're right Italfrank, everything is done for a reason. In this case the super was tired of hearing his lazy members complain about having to walk an extra 20 feet to the rough so he said to hell with it. Its actually pretty smart on his behalf, if they complain the greens are slow next year he can say its because they are putting across a ridge from pullcarts. Smart guy. What does define this system working? faster play-no way, won't change a thing, better greens-no way, there will be a wear mark by July, happy members-maybe, but the ones that truly love the course won't bring their pullcart anywhere near the green.

Just so you know this was ALREADY implemented and there were no "wear marks by July."

[slightdraw]

So Italfrank, you think this is OK? Its laziness! Walk your pullcart to the rough, how hard is it? I hope Bayview members don't think they have come up with some great idea, because its an excuse not an idea. My applause to the sane members there that want no part of it, the members at the course I work at have way too much respect for myself and the course to try pulling a cart across a green.

[rbaker]

Oh for sure Ital, I will stay away from most Clublink courses starting November 19th.
My cart is in getting serviced at Golf Town, seriously! should you need to know. I will check with you in the Spring before I head out to Station creek and drag it across your greens.
As for the Construction site, maybe there seems to be lots of it at various courses. Maybe its a wyndance nail. Shoes well they do get cleaned after each round.
I hope i've clarified all of your concerns.

RB

At Bayview the overwhelming majority said yes...thats why it was done, plus most members don't know much about conditioning of a golf course...thats why they pay a super so much to take care of it. Usually they base their decisions on his/her advice. Just wondering...how much say do you have at Wyndance :D I guess since your paying so much they should have advised you on things such as the type of sand they are using...types of grasses and pesticides etc. and let the members choose.

I dont know, but did you bring your golf clubs through a construction site? Also, your shoes build up mud and crap and rocks...I guess you should walk barefoot?

With your cart falling over so often and nails in your wheels, I'm glad your mostly playing at Wyndance...please stay away from Station Creek or the other CL courses for that matter....I think it's expected that members either use the pull carts provided or take care of the pull carts they own.

[Clevelandfan]

RB and Italfrank, as a fellow clublink member, I'd love to play with you two and maybe focal as the fourth sometime next year.
I tend to agree with Italfrank on this one, it is thinking outside the box wrt pull carts across the greens. Some people have posted here how it won't save much time but on some courses like mine (BOT) and probably Bayview, the majority of members are older than dirt and watching them come off a green while waiting is a painful experience. It's like watching paint dry, so in fact I think it would save time especially with the really older members.

[Frank101]

So Italfrank, you think this is OK? Its laziness! Walk your pullcart to the rough, how hard is it? I hope Bayview members don't think they have come up with some great idea, because its an excuse not an idea. My applause to the sane members there that want no part of it, the members at the course I work at have way too much respect for myself and the course to try pulling a cart across a green.

No slightdraw...I'm not saying its okay...the superintendent at Bayview who consistently gets his course conditions in the top 10 in Canada says its okay and if he says that, I trust him. Is your course in the top 10 in Canada for conditions?

Bayview members DON'T think they have some new great idea because its been done at many golf courses around the world. They have studied the benefits and found allowing pull carts to cross the green would improve their golf course.

[slightdraw]

Ital, I want to see your point, but what are the benefits? Besides shutting the members up, I don't see any. The course I work at is in the top 3 in conditioning, and our members wouldn't think about taking this route with pullcarts. If you can't rely on your membership to take care of the course, you're finished.

[dekker]

RB and Italfrank, as a fellow clublink member, I'd love to play with you two and maybe focal as the fourth sometime next year.
I tend to agree with Italfrank on this one, it is thinking outside the box wrt pull carts across the greens. Some people have posted here how it won't save much time but on some courses like mine (BOT) and probably Bayview, the majority of members are older than dirt and watching them come off a green while waiting is a painful experience. It's like watching paint dry, so in fact I think it would save time especially with the really older members.

"older than dirt" members shouldn't be excused from doing the right thing.If you are still able to play golf at an advanced age there's no reason to circumvent the niceties of the game and give the course and other members their due respect.
I do respect that a private course can institute such an exception with the consent of the members,after all that is the point of a private course.
However I would be disappointed if this were to creep into common usage.

[akrus]

Personally, I don't think that courses with firm greens (Bayview definitely being one of those) would be harmed by this - at least no more than golf carts on fairways. I've played Bayview a number of times and one thing I wouldn't call the members there lazy. Pace of play has always been good when I've played and a strong majority of the golfers seem to enjoy walking the course - even the ones "as old as dirt".

Slightdraw, what course do you work for and in what capacity? Just curious.

As for the rbaker comment re: "it's you again" towards italfrank... ummm, he was part of this thread before you got here, I'm starting to wonder if it's you that's stalking him??? Get over the bs you and him got going - you guys don't have to be polar opposites about everything...

I commend the turf king at BV for trying something outside of the ordinary, for this region. It shows some attempt at innovative thinking, something that is sorely lacking. The fact that they've got firm greens and that the greens are an area that gets constant maintenance, kind of makes sense for this move. Was this procedure in place all year at BV? Hmm, time to chat with Carlton... :cookoo:

[ginrin]

I read the article in Fairways and my first thought was WTF.If carts and traffic was damaging the areas around the green,then would'nt the same traffic damage the green.What happens if it rains or on early mornings when there's a lot of dew?Too many variables to deal with and traditions and respect for the old game is being eroded.

[akrus]

I read the article in Fairways and my first thought was WTF.If carts and traffic was damaging the areas around the green,then would'nt the same traffic damage the green.What happens if it rains or on early mornings when there's a lot of dew?Too many variables to deal with and traditions and respect for the old game is being eroded.

I believe the longer blades of grass that make up the rough get harmed much easier than the short blades on the green.

Take for example, most courses with carts ask that you get into the fairway and stay there, rather than driving out into the rough, then they'll move the "carts ---->" signs to allow for different exit points in the rough.

Some courses surely couldn't handle this sort of traffic on the greens, but as I mentioned, firm greens (such as BV, Bondhead, Whistle Bear, etc) surely could. I'm not advocating it, but I don't think it's going to be as big a problem as some here are making it out to be.

[goshawk]

Ok, I'll back down a bit from my original posts. I didn't know that Bayview had such firm greens. But surely other courses with softer greens would be damaged from the tracks left by carts. I can just imagine what the greens at Glen Cedars (usually very soft on most of the greens because of being shaded most of the day) would have lots of furrows with people crossing the greens.
Another option would be for courses who decide to allow carts on the greens to post signs around the course on the days that the greens are too soft, similar to the signs reminding cart drivers about 90 degree carts only or cartpaths only.
Personally, I would never drag a cart on a green.

[nickelhead]

I played a couple of rounds at Bayview this year as a "guest". Just couldn't get used to the idea of pulling the cart across the greens so I didn't do it. It's optional! Main reason for this is to maintain "pace of play". But members there get so hyper about this such as the slightly older group ahead of us who kept apologizing for their slowness...we were in no rush. How can people enjoy their round when they're so concerned about speedy play? Usually finish a round in just over 4 hours there which is plenty fast for me.

[guitarman]

Lefty,

I absolutely agree with you. If Bayview wants to move forward with this craziness they should institute a rule whereby if you choose to walk across the green with a pull cart you MUST at least repair 5 ballmarks (or any one you see). I've played on many private courses and unrepaired ballmarks are the bane of any greenskeepers existence.

What the heck does ball marks have to do with pull carts? The idiots that make the ball marks should repair them. I don't cause too many ball marks but I repair the ones that I do as well as any other's I see.

[akrus]

I played a couple of rounds at Bayview this year as a "guest". Just couldn't get used to the idea of pulling the cart across the greens so I didn't do it. It's optional! Main reason for this is to maintain "pace of play". But members there get so hyper about this such as the slightly older group ahead of us who kept apologizing for their slowness...we were in no rush. How can people enjoy their round when they're so concerned about speedy play? Usually finish a round in just over 4 hours there which is plenty fast for me.

I agree with the pace of play - I've never had a round longer than 4 1/4 hours out there, which is great, IMO.

Another course that could take the weight of push carts would be Cobble Beach. That bent velvet (or whatever it's called) grass that they use is tough as granite. I think you could drive a medium sized CAT over it without fear.

[cldale]

I am unclear why everyone here feels they are in such a great position to second guess the course super? Unless I myself was one, with significant knowledge and experience of what does or does not impact course conditions, I wouldn't feel I had the experience to question his decision.

That said, it seems to me like the damage potentially caused by a pullcart is much less than that caused by a person walking across on shoes. I weight ~230lbs (6'3") so with each step I take on all but the firmest greens I will leave an imprint.

My cart should be the least of your worries :)

[slightdraw]

Akrus, I prefer to not say what course I work for because I will have everybody and their brother asking me to get them out. I am an assistant super with education in turf management. The frustrating part about this post is people that think they know what they are talking about and they don't. I can tell you from working at a private course that the super did this because he got sick of people asking to do it, and that says a lot about their membership, they should never have asked. We are talking about the greens, the lifeblood of the course, any extra traffic, be it people or pullcarts can have terrible results. We just went through the driest summer in 50 years and these members want to take pullcarts on the greens and stress them out even more? Call me old fashioned but this "idea" is crazy, it puts extra traffic on a green that doesn't need to be there.

[akrus]

Akrus, I prefer to not say what course I work for because I will have everybody and their brother asking me to get them out. I am an assistant super with education in turf management. The frustrating part about this post is people that think they know what they are talking about and they don't. I can tell you from working at a private course that the super did this because he got sick of people asking to do it, and that says a lot about their membership, they should never have asked. We are talking about the greens, the lifeblood of the course, any extra traffic, be it people or pullcarts can have terrible results. We just went through the driest summer in 50 years and these members want to take pullcarts on the greens and stress them out even more? Call me old fashioned but this "idea" is crazy, it puts extra traffic on a green that doesn't need to be there.

Are you saying you've spoken directly with the super at BV? Or are you implying that the membership wanted to walk over the greens and were asking?

Surely, one of the biggest strains on any course's turf is corporate tournament play - but you don't see too many courses turning those down. It's money for them. Greens will come back. It's the director of golf's job to pack the course with players and the super's job to keep the course in good shape. Being a member at Whistle Bear, I for one have been lucky to have perfect greens all year. The course has been in fantastic shape and I'm sure it could easily weather the beating of a couple push carts a day.

Carlton said that it was in place at BV for the entire season and there hasn't been any noticeable change, other than the rough around the greens are better. I believe his course's action this past year speaks stronger than anything any of us a saying here. Only time will tell.

Not even really sure why I'm involved in this as I carry my bag, but I do have friends that use push carts.

[hamilton9977]

What the heck does ball marks have to do with pull carts? The idiots that make the ball marks should repair them. I don't cause too many ball marks but I repair the ones that I do as well as any other's I see.

Guitarman,

Absolutely nothing really. The point I was trying to make was that while I disagree with pulling a cart across a green, if you do then at least try to assist the greenskeepers by repairing ball marks. And you are absolutely right, the idiots that make the ball marks should repair them, but unfortunately how many really do? or for that matter know how to properly repair them?

Like you, I make a point of repairing my ball marks and any that I see. What tees me off is that many people do not (on both private and public courses).

[bigred]

Akrus, I prefer to not say what course I work for because I will have everybody and their brother asking me to get them out. I am an assistant super with education in turf management. The frustrating part about this post is people that think they know what they are talking about and they don't. I can tell you from working at a private course that the super did this because he got sick of people asking to do it, and that says a lot about their membership, they should never have asked. We are talking about the greens, the lifeblood of the course, any extra traffic, be it people or pullcarts can have terrible results. We just went through the driest summer in 50 years and these members want to take pullcarts on the greens and stress them out even more? Call me old fashioned but this "idea" is crazy, it puts extra traffic on a green that doesn't need to be there.


lol.

Get over it. Bayview has been allowing pullcarts on greens all summer with no consequence. I'm going to assume that BV has restrictions on pull carts on the greens after a heavy rainfall...

Many golf courses across New Zealand and Australia (which, by the way, has a pretty dry summer season) allow for carts on the greens. I've played down there, and at first I was a little taken aback at the thought of bringing a cart up on the green (because it's TABOO in North America), but then thought about it a little more and realized that it probably doesnt cause much stress to the turf. Don't you think they'd abolish this practice in Australia/NZ if it caused ANY damage to their greens???
You're just assuming, because for as long as we can all remember carts havent been permitted on putting greens, that pull carts would cause damage. Where is your evidence?

People on this board constantly complain about pace of play issues, etc, etc. Yet, here we have a Golf Club trying something new to improve PoP and most people are criticizing it. :confused: And yes, not having to go back to the other side of the green to grab your cart would, over the course of the day, save a considerable amount of time.

[rbaker]

Ya, I would like to play CC with you next year. Frank and I will have to work on our relationship before we meet.:rofl:


RB and Italfrank, as a fellow clublink member, I'd love to play with you two and maybe focal as the fourth sometime next year.
I tend to agree with Italfrank on this one, it is thinking outside the box wrt pull carts across the greens. Some people have posted here how it won't save much time but on some courses like mine (BOT) and probably Bayview, the majority of members are older than dirt and watching them come off a green while waiting is a painful experience. It's like watching paint dry, so in fact I think it would save time especially with the really older members.


I believe the longer blades of grass that make up the rough get harmed much easier than the short blades on the green.

Take for example, most courses with carts ask that you get into the fairway and stay there, rather than driving out into the rough, then they'll move the "carts ---->" signs to allow for different exit points in the rough.

Some courses surely couldn't handle this sort of traffic on the greens, but as I mentioned, firm greens (such as BV, Bondhead, Whistle Bear, etc) surely could. I'm not advocating it, but I don't think it's going to be as big a problem as some here are making it out to be.

Yes I agree- the arguing needs to stop between ITAL and I . It goes back to other posts beyond this one!
I'm too old for this online arguing stuff.
I do however maintain it will be so unsightly too see people pulling the carts up on the green. Next thing you know its okay to drive on up as well.
Hamilton is basically saying that people have a general disrespect for greens as it is these days, evident among
CL members as an example. To now allow them to drag the cart past the unfixed ball marks seems to be insult on top of injury.

RB


Personally, I don't think that courses with firm greens (Bayview definitely being one of those) would be harmed by this - at least no more than golf carts on fairways. I've played Bayview a number of times and one thing I wouldn't call the members there lazy. Pace of play has always been good when I've played and a strong majority of the golfers seem to enjoy walking the course - even the ones "as old as dirt".

Slightdraw, what course do you work for and in what capacity? Just curious.

As for the rbaker comment re: "it's you again" towards italfrank... ummm, he was part of this thread before you got here, I'm starting to wonder if it's you that's stalking him??? Get over the bs you and him got going - you guys don't have to be polar opposites about everything...

I commend the turf king at BV for trying something outside of the ordinary, for this region. It shows some attempt at innovative thinking, something that is sorely lacking. The fact that they've got firm greens and that the greens are an area that gets constant maintenance, kind of makes sense for this move. Was this procedure in place all year at BV? Hmm, time to chat with Carlton... :cookoo:

[guitarman]

Frank and I will have to work on our relationship before we meet.:rofl:


Geez, I didn't know you 2 were an item.

[ginrin]

I think a lot of people forget that NZ and Aus. has predominantly Bermuda grass which is also a totally different grass.To say they use tractors to cut greens is a totally ignorant comment as all movers also have rollers to help smooth back the green.If it was done to merely speed up play,the members should be looking at themselves instead.

[Frank101]

Frank and I will have to work on our relationship before we meet.

I think our "relationship" is fine Rbaker.

I don't hate you, I just disagree with you.

Lets golf....who cares

[Carlton]

Yikes, I've never seen BV mentioned this much since I joined TGN. LOL

I'm not saying that ALL courses should allow walking your carts thru the green. There are guidelines for members who wish to do so such as not stopping once you start to cross, not allowed to walk alongside the apron etc.

Not sure if Slightdraw spoke to Thom Charters directly but I can tell you it wasn't a decision made due to members pestering him to allow them to do so and why would he put himself in a position to degrade the greens etc that he's trying so hard to improve or keep prestine?

The year before this procedure was implemented, we had instances where the greenside rough was becoming a bit trampled down from the pullcart traffic. These areas were high traffic areas and in order to cut down the stress in these areas, Thom looked into other alternatives and the Aussie/NZ technique seemed applicable based on the type or greens and substrate at Bayview. The practice was implemented on a trial basis and the green conditions monitored for any negative effects and none were found. About the members b!tching about wanting to walk across the green, well, when they implemented the practice, I saw my share of older folks still walking around the green because they (like myself) found it taboo.

Not saying or preaching that it should be a normal practice because every course's greens etc is different. It'll certainly be detrimental to some courses but it may be applicable to some but it takes a LOT of risk to implement. I'm not educated in greenskeeping etc. but I've played well over a 100 rounds at the course per season and just going by personal observations and chatting with Thom who by the way is a heck of a golfer too.

Oh by the way, the water ban on golf courses during the dry periods does not include Bayview GCC.

[goshawk]

Carlton,
Hey bud. Where have you been hiding?!
Very well put my friend. It makes sense if the greens are built to take that traffic, but as you said not all are built the same.

[planet]

I am unclear why everyone here feels they are in such a great position to second guess the course super? Unless I myself was one, with significant knowledge and experience of what does or does not impact course conditions, I wouldn't feel I had the experience to question his decision.

That said, it seems to me like the damage potentially caused by a pullcart is much less than that caused by a person walking across on shoes. I weight ~230lbs (6'3") so with each step I take on all but the firmest greens I will leave an imprint.

My cart should be the least of your worries :)

I'm very surprised to hear that a high end course like Bayview is allowing this.

I'm sure that the super thought this through but:

1) Would other courses with softer greens, and more play be able to handle this?

2) Walkers may be heavier than carts, but walkers would only make occasional foot imprints on the green. As opposed to carts, that would leave a continuous tirepath.

I can't see any real significant benefit to this.

[rbaker]

Today I was alone at Blue Springs and I first looked around, and made sure no one was looking.:hush:
I mean made sure no one could see me, almost like I was commiting an crime of sort.
I then picked a small outside part of the green and rolled my sunmountain accross it. It left tire treads.
On a lighter note I seemed to be fixing ball marks all freakin day that weren't mine. So I could feel a little better now about running my cart accrosss part of the green.
I dont think this is a good idea at all to allow carts on greens, nor do I think it will ever be accepted widely in Canada.



RB

[Carlton]

Carlton,
Hey bud. Where have you been hiding?!
Very well put my friend. It makes sense if the greens are built to take that traffic, but as you said not all are built the same.

Been crazy busy at work etc. Hope your back is holding out after the surgery and all's well with you. Saw this thread and thought I'd chime in but it's a lost cause. I've had enough of this banter...

[rbaker]

I think at our courses once people start repairing ball marks ,then let them
Pull carts across the greens. I have been out fixing fresh gaping wounds on greens in the wet cold . CL members will tell you the same, at least one third of us don't care about our greens.
Once people have a better regard for greens to begin with aggregately ,maybe then you can treat them to being able to roll a cart across. Until such a day should that ever come, forget it.
I bet at Bayview all the members look after the greens so it works for them to implement it.
This argument for public or Clublink courses is a waste of time. It will never happen, people cant be trusted.
:nono:
RB

[Leftygolfer30]

bayview golf and country club is allowing big wheeled push carts and electronic caddies

I just wanted to point out this important fact from the original post that seems to have gotten lost in the debate. They are allowing carts that have larger/wider wheels which I will agree would distribute the weight much better than a typical pull/push cart with thinner wheels.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about a private course that has golfers playing it that have a vested interest in the conditioning of "their" course.

Regardless of the pro's of this idea, there is no way that it would be practical on a public course. It would only contribute to the bad "green" etiquette that is rampent throughout many of the courses most of us play. I can only imagine what greens that already have too many unrepaired ball marks & spike drag marks would look like if people were dragging carts acroos them :eek:

I still maintain that I won't do it - even if I do get invited to play at Bayview.

[Frank101]

I just wanted to point out this important fact from the original post that seems to have gotten lost in the debate. They are allowing carts that have larger/wider wheels which I will agree would distribute the weight much better than a typical pull/push cart with thinner wheels.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about a private course that has golfers playing it that have a vested interest in the conditioning of "their" course.

Regardless of the pro's of this idea, there is no way that it would be practical on a public course. It would only contribute to the bad "green" etiquette that is rampent throughout many of the courses most of us play. I can only imagine what greens that already have too many unrepaired ball marks & spike drag marks would look like if people were dragging carts acroos them :eek:

I still maintain that I won't do it - even if I do get invited to play at Bayview.

If I remember correctly, and I may be wrong, the last time I was at Bayview they only had big wheeled pullcarts hence allowing only the large wheeled carts. Maybe that was part of the thinking dyring the decision process.