All the new taxes in Toronto

[BowmanvilleJim]

I'm glad I don't live in the big city with all those new taxes coming down on you.

[hogannut]

The thing that bugs me is when the taxes are implemented the services won't improve and the city will still be crying that they are broke. Yet we continue to hear of how the tax dollars are being wasted but no public inquiry ever happens.

I heard on 640 this morning that one of the whistle blowers has now been fired. I foget his name, but he had made public knowledge some of the things bought with tax payers money at city hall, like $300 on an expresso machine.

Politicians seem to think we are still in the 1960's and 70's and they can just keep on raising taxes to pay for their expenses. The gap between the rich and poor is growing by leaps and bounds in this city, and more and more people are having to get by with less and less. Eventually those people who are coming home with less money in their pockets will reach a breaking point.

In order for me to maintain my lifestyle, and play golf I have had to take another job. Yes, it is a job I enjoy doing, but even at that there are many nights when I am in the rink and my feet hurt because I've been in my skates for the last 2 hours and I'm dead tired because it is 10 o'clock at night and I've been up since 6:30. THen I'm toast the next day at work because I'm going in on 6 hours sleep because I didn't get to bed until midnight because I was working to 11 the night before. BTW....I don't belong to a private club or anything. I play public courses and usually stick to courses under $70 as I can't afford to play higher end courses. I do play in tournaments too. But I am not spend thousands and thousands on golf. Probably about $2000 per year for everything, green fees, range balls and tournaments.

Both myself and my wife work full-time, and I work part-time as well and at our present income levels we will never be able to buy real estate in Toronto AND have a life too. It's nice to know that Miller and his employees got a raise this year, and that until Miller got "busted" and the info went public he was planning on spending a million bucks on office renovations. Sure David I'll be glad to explain to my 10 year old that he can't play hockey anymore because David Miller needed new wood paneling in his office and I have to pay for it.

[davepratt]

We are watching very carefully to see if the new taxes (especially the doubling of the land transfer tax), affects house sales. The cumulative affect of all these new measures could well drive people to Durham, York etc. Mind you, don't think for a second the 905 politicians aren't watching this and drooling. They will piggyback this tax grab sure as God made little green apples.

[guitarman]

In order for me to maintain my lifestyle, and play golf I have had to take another job. .

A couple of years ago my wife took a part time night teaching gig to supplement our golf. Yeah, that year we went nuts on buying expensive equipment and playing golf 4-5 times a week but come tax season we got dinged pretty badly. It doesn't pay to work extra.

[BowmanvilleJim]

I work for a 905 area municipality. It's my belief that most municipalities surrounding TO are in much better financial shape due to continued growth, new infrastructure and they have been using market value tax assesment for years. The pressure to increase tax levels is felt by all levels of gov't.

I can't say for sure but I believe that the 905 areas have charged higher user fees for a long time now.

The amalgamation of cities has not realized the promised financial and service efficiencies, in many cases it has actually led to higher costs.

[hogannut]

We are watching very carefully to see if the new taxes (especially the doubling of the land transfer tax), affects house sales. The cumulative affect of all these new measures could well drive people to Durham, York etc. Mind you, don't think for a second the 905 politicians aren't watching this and drooling. They will piggyback this tax grab sure as God made little green apples.

I feel bad for Toronto real estate brokers. You guys have been used to getting the sale almost immediately for list or even above. THose days may be over!:(

[davepratt]

I feel bad for Toronto real estate brokers. You guys have been used to getting the sale almost immediately for list or even above. THose days may be over!:(

I wish that were true but in fact pretty most all the hype is in the downtown area. The myth is perpetuated by our board because they always want to paint as rosy a picture as they can. When the actual true numbers are broker down, it's nothing like the public perceives it.
Although here's Blue Jays pitcher AJ Burnett's condo that sold. It was owned by Vince Carter. Should we start a trade rumour?

[Weirfan]

dont get me wrong, I am as much against shelling out more $ than anybody,,,,,BUT

Toronto is a world class city, relatively safe beautiful and clean.

The costs to run a city and maintain it as such are obviously not going to remain static. Add to that that there has been a huge amount of downloading of costs from the province and where else can the money come from??

whatever is done somebody is going to gripe........if you tax businesses too much they move as many have.

I believe that there should be more luxury type taxes as well as increased costs for parking, subway and the addition of more toll roads.

one thing I need explained is where is all the additional money from property taxes.....with the huge increase in house values in the past several years there should be a huge amount of extra money from this.......here , just north of TO my house assesment has gone up $150,000 in 3 years.....and my taxes reflect that.

taxes are not just going up in TO but the whole GTA and beyond.

[davepratt]

one thing I need explained is where is all the additional money from property taxes.....with the huge increase in house values in the past several years there should be a huge amount of extra money from this.......here , just north of TO my house assesment has gone up $150,000 in 3 years.....and my taxes reflect that.



Current Toronto taxes are based on January 1, 2005 values. That will change shortly, but they are going to cap tax increases. They have to or the little old lady living alone in her small bungalow that's now worth $700,000 will be taxed right out of her home and that's not fair. They simply adjust the mill rate to reflect the targeted increase.

[LowPost42]

Even way up here in the far north, taxes are on the rise. The 'birght idea' of provincial downloading is hurting more and more communities.

Truly, the only way to reduce taxes is the Harris Progressive Conservative way: Sell all the services off to private parties so that the Government is no longer responsible for them; and therefore can lower the taxes.

I'm still pissed about the sale of the 407.

As weirsy points out, more toll roads in theory should help maintain the transportation end of things. However, where is the breaking point if parking and public transit costs rise to the point where it's no longer a much cheaper alternative to ride public versus private?

IMO a perfect system would include a flat-rate income tax and luxury taxes out the wazoo.

[golfpal]

Toronto is one of the lowest taxed areas I believe about 60% lower than the 905 area. They are implementing taxes to cover the costs of things like the arenas and other stuff a large city like Toronto needs. Alot of the core is NDP whining losers that want everything for nothing and dont' want to pay for it. If you go swimming or to a community centre in the 905 you pay for it. It can cost you like $3.00 a night to swim in the city 416 it never costs you anything for any community centre. Taxes are way higher in the 905 and everything is not subsidized like the city programs. There are tons of programs you can go and pay nothing for. Hazel McCallum (Mississauga) is one of the best Mayors but was on a show and said you guys in Toronto are a joke you want a perfect city and all your ammenties but for free. Everything costs money and you pay the lowest taxes of anywhere. Wake up! She raises taxes no one says anything. They pay it. I am not saying you shouldn't account for the money being spent because tons is wasted but till you get rid of the unions and useless city employees who are overpaid and do nothing, the useless councillors unlike Rob Ford who at least is setting an example and trying to overcome this on his own and being shunned for it. You will have to put more in the coffer. Also remember the amount of homes in Toronto that are rented. All those people aren't paying taxes. So you cover all those people costs too much more than in the 905 area where there are less people renting. You can go on forever but if you compare Toronto to other citys of it's size and communities and what they offer the taxes are way higher. We are just so spoiled and so used to everything for nothing no one can change. You get what you pay for. If they insist on not privatizing city services and overpaying their workers to do nothing than we must pay more unfortunately. Every company has useless workers and overpaid staff unfortunately the city is not any different. But Toronto is still fairly reasonable compared to elsewhere.

As for homes selling they will always sell and are still getting offers above the asking price, the demand is there and again Toronto is catching up with alot of cities. A friend of mine was trying to buy a house in the city, he got outbid by 4 people their offers were 20,000+ above asking last week. I speak with alot of people moving here from all over the world and they consider it rather reasonable. Because we are not used to the huge increase in housing costs it's wow. But to them it's still a good deal for the space you get compared to other world class cities. Check out California prices are insane. There are less in small mid west towns but cities forget it we are just reaching their levels. So the market in my opinion will be fine for a while. We will have to see after the US election but still people are buying and have that I want it so they pay it now. It's different from before.

[davepratt]

Toronto is one of the lowest taxed areas I believe about 60% lower than the 905 area. Also remember the amount of homes in Toronto that are rented. All those people aren't paying taxes. to elsewhere.



You're right Toronto does pay less property taxes. Taxes on rented homes are paid by the property owner irrepective of who lived there.

[hogannut]

Even way up here in the far north, taxes are on the rise. The 'birght idea' of provincial downloading is hurting more and more communities.

Truly, the only way to reduce taxes is the Harris Progressive Conservative way: Sell all the services off to private parties so that the Government is no longer responsible for them; and therefore can lower the taxes.

I'm still pissed about the sale of the 407.

As weirsy points out, more toll roads in theory should help maintain the transportation end of things. However, where is the breaking point if parking and public transit costs rise to the point where it's no longer a much cheaper alternative to ride public versus private?

IMO a perfect system would include a flat-rate income tax and luxury taxes out the wazoo.

So am I....regarding the 407. That highway was supposed to have the toll removed after it was paid for. Now that it has been sold it will be a toll road forever.

I do not have a problem with paying the tolls, but I do have a problem with the price that is charged. When you consider you can through like .50 cents into a basket and drive like 50 miles on the US toll roads. I pay $60 a month and go from 404 to Bathurst in the morning, and Dufferin to 404 in the afternoon.

I don't mind paying a convenience fee to go through the "light", which I do every month.....$2 transponder fee, but the mileage rates are ridiculous. It is a great highway though!!

[Golden Bear]

Toronto is one of the lowest taxed areas I believe about 60% lower than the 905 area. They are implementing taxes to cover the costs of things like the arenas and other stuff a large city like Toronto needs. Alot of the core is NDP whining losers that want everything for nothing and dont' want to pay for it. If you go swimming or to a community centre in the 905 you pay for it. It can cost you like $3.00 a night to swim in the city 416 it never costs you anything for any community centre. Taxes are way higher in the 905 and everything is not subsidized like the city programs. There are tons of programs you can go and pay nothing for. Hazel McCallum (Mississauga) is one of the best Mayors but was on a show and said you guys in Toronto are a joke you want a perfect city and all your ammenties but for free. Everything costs money and you pay the lowest taxes of anywhere.I agree with most of this, except the assertion that the people who hate taxes are "NDP whining losers". NDPers favour taxes. It is generally people much further to the right complaining about higher taxes.

But you're right -- I've said this many times. We're not the highest taxed in the country by a long shot, so we should stop whining as if we are. I'm more than happy to see taxes shoot up in order to maintain or improve services. That's the left-wing side of my brain. I also favour having an independent auditor examine the city's books and publicly report on inefficiencies or lack thereof, and make recommendations on how to address those inefficiencies. There's the right-wing side of my brain.

[golfpal]

Yeah Pratt I know the property owner pays the taxes, what I was trying to say is in the city you have tons of renters that use the facilities. In addition you have a large quanity of housing projects in the city lost revenue they don't pay property tax either. So all these lost body revenues in the city. More people less revenue. If they owned themselves that would generate that much more revenue, but still it's taxing on the city as they use the city services, all the community centres and the same aspects of the owner. I guess this is more so the renters in housing complexes than individual housing units. But still they is services used by people not paying. Hope this is understood confusing sorry. :cookoo:

Golden Bear agree totally. What I was saying is the core is a large portion of NDP whiners because they don't pay the taxes that we are implementing but they vote them in. They are usually renters in projects that live in the core. I didn't mean they were the actual people who would be affected by the tax increases so they vote for them all because as you say they get all the services and the employed person or tax payer is paying for them.

[hogannut]

I agree with you GB.....the problem is every time our taxes goes it seems our service level stays the same and/or goes down. For example the 401 is a disgrace and has been for over 10 years. If you take the 401 from Mississauga to Oshawa, there has been some form of construction going on between these 2 areas for the last 10 years. That is just one example.

Comparing this to Sweden (the highest taxed country) where road crews ONLY work at off peak hours (nights and weekends) to have the least amount of inconvenience to people.

It is more of a mind set than anything else. Here in Toronto, many people/companies take the attitude that they can work when they want to then the city must accomodate them.

[davepratt]

Yeah Pratt I know the property owner pays the taxes, what I was trying to say is in the city you have tons of renters that use the facilities. In addition you have a large quanity of housing projects in the city lost revenue they don't pay property tax either. So all these lost body revenues in the city. More people less revenue. If they owned themselves that would generate that much more revenue, but still it's taxing on the city as they use the city services, all the community centres and the same aspects of the owner. I guess this is more so the renters in housing complexes than individual housing units. But still they is services used by people not paying. Hope this is understood confusing sorry. :cookoo:

I'll tell you where we are losing buckets of cash. It's in the tens of thousands of illegal basement apartments. Basically these homes use double all services and only pay taxes as a single family dwelling.
Did you ever wonder why all of a sudden there are rows of portables in established neighbourhoods that have added no new homes? It's the people from the bsmt apts who pay no taxes yet use the school systems. I once raised this issue with former budget chief David Soknacki and his answer was that since these homes would have higher values, their taxes would be higher. How the hell do you know where the apts are?:cookoo:

[golfpal]

Very good point another source of lost revenue. True! But again your right how do you know where they are? But there are tons and tons and the same in the houses that have remolded and have two to three units per house.

HN - Your complaining about taxes but using an example of the one of the highest taxed countries in the world. So you would want more taxes if they did the work at night. See can't have everything if you want the services you have to pay. Sweden services are amazing but you pay through the nose for them. But then you can't complain:cookoo: .

[hogannut]

Very good point another source of lost revenue. True! But again your right how do you know where they are? But there are tons and tons and the same in the houses that have remolded and have two to three units per house.

HN - Your complaining about taxes but using an example of the one of the highest taxed countries in the world. So you would want more taxes if they did the work at night. See can't have everything if you want the services you have to pay. Sweden services are amazing but you pay through the nose for them. But then you can't complain:cookoo: .

I would not complain if that was the case. IN fact Sweden has one of the highest standards of living in the world, and the Swedish people do not complain about their taxes.

What bothers me is when you hear all these conflicting stories.....like the mayor cries poor, and then it is leaked to the media he was planning on spending a million dollars on office renovations, and everyone is getting a raise.

I do not know enough about Sweden to make a comment on how much "waste" happens with the tax dollars they generate, but I will say that over the last 10-15 years in Toronto the services provided by the city have continued to decline, where the taxes have gone up.

Every penny of the money that goes to the city of Toronto should be accounted for including office expenses....like capacino machines. You don't need a $300 capacino machine. Go to Timmy's like the rest of us do, or get all the employees to contribute THEIR money to coffee machine instead of spending mine!!!;) We constantly hear about these types of injustices. GOvernment officials taking their families to some country, staying in 5 star hotels and charging it all to their "budgets". They don't need to stay in a hotel like that, and they don't need to take their families either. Your wife and kids aren't government employees, pay for their plane tickets and accomodations out of your own pocket!! Why should tax payers pay for it? Are your wife and kids involved in the "business" trip? I highly doubt it.

I spent a year living in the States (not that I think their system is better) and I can say that this thinking of NOT complaining about how tax money is spent is a Canadian phenomenon. IF it was leaked to the media in an American city that taxes were going up and at the same the mayor of that city was planning on a million dollar renovation to his office the citizens of that city would be crying bloody murder.

I can remember when gas prices started going up a few years back. The state of Indiania removed their state tax on gasoline in order to keep the economy moving and to be accountable to the citizens of the state.

All I'm saying is the government is a business and should be thought of as a business. If there is a price increase on services provided we as customers of the business (we pay money to the different levels of government) should be able to question why there was a price increase, and ask about the quality of services we receive for our money.

When I was kid during the 70's and there was a snow storm our side street was plowed (and plowed properly) with a day or so of the storm. There are side streets in our neighbourhood (not our particular street) that had not been plowed yet as of the 5th when the 2nd storm hit. WHY?

[mccho]

So am I....regarding the 407. That highway was supposed to have the toll removed after it was paid for. Now that it has been sold it will be a toll road forever.

I do not have a problem with paying the tolls, but I do have a problem with the price that is charged. When you consider you can through like .50 cents into a basket and drive like 50 miles on the US toll roads. I pay $60 a month and go from 404 to Bathurst in the morning, and Dufferin to 404 in the afternoon.

I don't mind paying a convenience fee to go through the "light", which I do every month.....$2 transponder fee, but the mileage rates are ridiculous. It is a great highway though!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't this highway built with tax payer's money and sold to a private owner outside of North America?

We pay to have it built and we pay an outsider for its use...

[BowmanvilleJim]

I am a taxpayer and I get irate about the apparent mismanagement of my tax dollars buy the various levels of gov't but being on the inside I can tell you without doubt that the services that are delivered with a user fee are done so at a loss.

example - ice time - arenas cost more to build and operate than they take in in revenue. If municipal gov't behaved like a business they would either sell off the arenas to the private sector (and you would pay more) or increase the fees dramatically or just shut them down.

If they where going to charge users a true market rate then they should simply get out of that business and let the private sector do it. If that where to happen I gaurantee you that the price would increase way more than the 21% that your TO council was considering.

Never mind that cost of that highway, taxpayers should be upset about the $650 million we spent to build Skydome only to have it sold to Ted Rogers for $25 million and now there is speculation that if the NFL where to put a team in TO they would want the taxpayers to pony up for a 72,000 seat stadium.

There are some things I think our politicians have no business spending our money on.

[hogannut]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't this highway built with tax payer's money and sold to a private owner outside of North America?

We pay to have it built and we pay an outsider for its use...

What I heard is it was sold to a company based in Quebec, who has put up a "head office" in GTA to kind of hide who the true owners are. I cannot claim that is a fact, it is what I heard though.

Bottom line....the toll road that was supposed to be made a non toll road after it paid for itself. Now it will be a toll road forever!:nono: :eek: :mad: :(

Also...when it was sold I distinctly remember seeing Mike Harris in the papers with the big novelty cheque made payable to the "Ontario Tax payers" and the amount was 2 billion dollars. Where did that money go?

I am a taxpayer and I get irate about the apparent mismanagement of my tax dollars buy the various levels of gov't but being on the inside I can tell you without doubt that the services that are delivered with a user fee are done so at a loss.

example - ice time - arenas cost more to build and operate than they take in in revenue. If municipal gov't behaved like a business they would either sell off the arenas to the private sector (and you would pay more) or increase the fees dramatically or just shut them down.

If they where going to charge users a true market rate then they should simply get out of that business and let the private sector do it. If that where to happen I gaurantee you that the price would increase way more than the 21% that your TO council was considering.

Never mind that cost of that highway, taxpayers should be upset about the $650 million we spent to build Skydome only to have it sold to Ted Rogers for $25 million and now there is speculation that if the NFL where to put a team in TO they would want the taxpayers to pony up for a 72,000 seat stadium.

There are some things I think our politicians have no business spending our money on.

THe mistake by the lake. Although Ted Rogers got it for dirt cheap at least he is making a profit on it.

Let's not thread jack this into a Rogers bash!!!:rofl:

[golfpal]

I think Bowmanvillejim is correct in his statements and don't think people realize just how much it costs to run a city anymore. Most highways, expressways in the states have tolls for their roads and extra costs. The taxes in most cities are much higher than ours and this all adds up. If you find out of hundreds of government officials a few that are spending carelessly I don't think that means all are. Like in all businesses even the ones your in people take advantage if offered your not going to get away from that. How many hours do we spend of employers time emailing, chatting. It's no different it's just a different form. If offered to most people they would probably take advantage of it maybe a little maybe too much like some that have been caught. There is investigations and these people will not be doing it again. In my office we have an espresso and high tech coffee machine for the staff. All coffee,tea, and in some cases beverages are supplied by the company that is not unusual and wouldn't think that is an expense that would be frowned upon. Actually I think it is standard in a lot of companies maybe not all the same but that's how Mr. Coffee makes his living supplying offices. So I think as said if your willing to pay for it then don't ***** about it and accept it and then your services will get better. They work on the highways constantly because they are in constant need of repair and they don't waste money by doing it on off hours. Put a toll on the road and they can do it faster and in off hours but everyone will complain. It's a complaining society. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. As for the states I too have lived quite a few places and personally I would take Toronto anyday. As for your example seems they are going the wayside of I guess Canadians it seems and got a war they didn't really want. Got in debt up to their eyeballs and now have to climb back out of their problems. I know in areas of the states the taxes are enormous for example we were looking at a vacation property for income in Florida and the property itself was not too big, I think 800 sq ft condo, not to expensive I believe like 170,000 but the taxes and maintenance were insane. The taxes were 3800.00 a year and I don't even recall the maintenance but it was crazy and we were advised they would be increased upon the sale. So look around and then see what you got for your money. Toronto is still very good for what your paying. But yes the money spent always has to be investigated and audited as in everywhere there are people who take advantage of an employer even the city.:rolleyes:

If we could get Ted Rogers to run the city like he runs his businesses we would be doing just fine. To me the man is an amazing businessman. I know some people don't like him but he will always succeed and make money even where people before have failed ie: the dome.

[mikejb]

What I heard is it was sold to a company based in Quebec, who has put up a "head office" in GTA to kind of hide who the true owners are. I cannot claim that is a fact, it is what I heard though.

It is owned by a consortium including Ontario Teachers, and Macquaire from Australia. Macquaire is the largest shareholder in the property. (http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/mig/about.htm (http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/mig/about.htm) and http://www.macquarie.com/ca/407_etr.htm (http://www.macquarie.com/ca/407_etr.htm))

As for the city of Toronto, I would really enjoy as a tax payer if we stepped back and just put the brakes on everything for once. We need to look at how people are processing invoices. If you do not understand construction, you should not be approving road work invoices (http://www.torontolife.com/features/hall-shame/ (http://www.torontolife.com/features/hall-shame/)).

We need to have a realistic study on the use of infrastructure. At this point we are spinning our wheels.

As for the outside municipalities and their financial well being; they have generated a lot of their income to support infrastructure from development credits and charges to the builders of Mississauga, Markham etc. You will begin to see places like Mississauga face new battles in the coming years now that Hurricane Hazel is running out of large patches of developable land. Without the money from developers, which is past straight on to the consumer btw, the municipalities surrounding Toronto are going to begin facing similar challenges in the future.

[The Troll]

I'm all in favour of toll roads (i love the 407 'cuz I won't go on the 401) but only if they are built and financed as toll roads from the start.

In Hamilton, the city fought for 50 years on the taxpayers' dime to build the just opened Red Hill using taxpayer money. Charge me once and I'm fine with it, just don't charge me twice.

[hogannut]

It is owned by a consortium including Ontario Teachers, and Macquaire from Australia. Macquaire is the largest shareholder in the property. (http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/mig/about.htm (http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/mig/about.htm) and http://www.macquarie.com/ca/407_etr.htm (http://www.macquarie.com/ca/407_etr.htm))

As for the city of Toronto, I would really enjoy as a tax payer if we stepped back and just put the brakes on everything for once. We need to look at how people are processing invoices. If you do not understand construction, you should not be approving road work invoices (http://www.torontolife.com/features/hall-shame/ (http://www.torontolife.com/features/hall-shame/)).

We need to have a realistic study on the use of infrastructure. At this point we are spinning our wheels.

As for the outside municipalities and their financial well being; they have generated a lot of their income to support infrastructure from development credits and charges to the builders of Mississauga, Markham etc. You will begin to see places like Mississauga face new battles in the coming years now that Hurricane Hazel is running out of large patches of developable land. Without the money from developers, which is past straight on to the consumer btw, the municipalities surrounding Toronto are going to begin facing similar challenges in the future.

Great points here. Just like MLSE how and why can someone with NO idea what is involved in road construction approving quotes for road construction. I got a big shiver down my spine when you said the Ontario teachers are involved in the 407!!!!

Isn't it funny that EVERY business the teachers union is involved in is FUBAR!! :eek:

Just an observation....and not a slam on the teachers themselves.

[skt07]

Great points here. Just like MLSE how and why can someone with NO idea what is involved in road construction approving quotes for road construction. I got a big shiver down my spine when you said the Ontario teachers are involved in the 407!!!!

Isn't it funny that EVERY business the teachers union is involved in is FUBAR!! :eek:

Just an observation....and not a slam on the teachers themselves.

Just because the Teacher's Pension Fund is an investor in the 407 and MLSE, doesn't mean they are involved in the daily operations of the organizations.

Even though I own shares of Google, it doesn't mean I need to know how to write search engine software. I am simply an investor who trusts that the company I buy shares in will be run properly and will grow in value. Nothing more, nothing less. Even if I owned a large chunk (say 10%) of Google, I wouldn't necessarily be able to change board and management decisions.

I have to laugh whenever people talk about OTPF actually running MLSE just because it owns a big chunk of it. Even more laughable is the fact people believe that it's actually TEACHERS who are managing OTPF!

An illustration.

Anyone who is working contributes to the Canada Pension Plan. CPP and OTPF operate in a fairly similar manner, except for the fact CPP manages an even bigger portfolio than OTPF.

So let me ask you (rhetorically). As a contributor to the CPP, do you have any say in how the CPP is managed? No? Well that's the same way OTPF works for the teachers.

Believe it or not, OTPF works the same way and is managed by the same types of people who manage large mutual funds. But instead of "Templeton" or "Berkshire Hathaway" it is called "Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund", and the only people who can contribute to it are Ontario teachers.

[Chambokl]

Here are some of the companies that the Ontario teacher's Pension Plan has invested in:

Nexen, BCE, Macquarie Infrastructure Group, Northumbrian Water Group plc, Microsoft, Royal Bank, Fording, Maple Leafs, ManuLife, Nestlé, PFizer, Suncor, CitiGroup, TD Bank, Encana, Vodafone, Samsung, Barrick Gold, Yellow Pages, Alcan, Bank of Nova Scotia, Merks, Telus, etc... They also have lots of investment in Real Estate.

Their net assets grew by $9.9 billion in 2006 to $106.0 billion.

[rgk5]

"Isn't it funny that EVERY business the teachers union is involved in is FUBAR!! "

Really. I take it you are not aware of hands off investments? This fund has been incredibly succesful and has outperformed the market for years.

[Jeffc]

come to ottawa. we have some of the highest property taxes in Ontario. We have a mayor that is under investigation for some election misdoings, who also promised 0% tax raise and we got 4.9%, who cancelled our light rail project and the city is currently being sued for about $250M by the consortium who it was cancelled on. Further to that, when the property tax freeze comes off in 2009, some people will see a 45% increase in their property taxes. and you think you have problems.

[dekker]

K-Y jelly is your friend!::p

[MP33]

Just because the Teacher's Pension Fund is an investor in the 407 and MLSE, doesn't mean they are involved in the daily operations of the organizations.

Even though I own shares of Google, it doesn't mean I need to know how to write search engine software. I am simply an investor who trusts that the company I buy shares in will be run properly and will grow in value. Nothing more, nothing less. Even if I owned a large chunk (say 10%) of Google, I wouldn't necessarily be able to change board and management decisions.

I have to laugh whenever people talk about OTPF actually running MLSE just because it owns a big chunk of it. Even more laughable is the fact people believe that it's actually TEACHERS who are managing OTPF!

An illustration.

Anyone who is working contributes to the Canada Pension Plan. CPP and OTPF operate in a fairly similar manner, except for the fact CPP manages an even bigger portfolio than OTPF.

So let me ask you (rhetorically). As a contributor to the CPP, do you have any say in how the CPP is managed? No? Well that's the same way OTPF works for the teachers.

Believe it or not, OTPF works the same way and is managed by the same types of people who manage large mutual funds. But instead of "Templeton" or "Berkshire Hathaway" it is called "Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund", and the only people who can contribute to it are Ontario teachers.

Don't laugh too much. I worked for many years for one of the large companies owned by OTPF. They may not be involved in the day-to-day but don't think for a minute they are the "silent partner" types. You can bet that if you string together a few bad quarters, the guys and girls at OTPF will be barking for changes. I can speak of this first hand.

[torontodude]

It can cost you like $3.00 a night to swim in the city 416 it never costs you anything for any community centre.

I swim at a 416 community centre and it costs $2.50

[golf nut]

K-Y jelly is your friend!::p

We prefer to use it for sex...

We put it on the bedroom door handle to keep the kids out.

[Bjmcisaac]

I am a taxpayer and I get irate about the apparent mismanagement of my tax dollars buy the various levels of gov't but being on the inside I can tell you without doubt that the services that are delivered with a user fee are done so at a loss.

example - ice time - arenas cost more to build and operate than they take in in revenue. If municipal gov't behaved like a business they would either sell off the arenas to the private sector (and you would pay more) or increase the fees dramatically or just shut them down.

If they where going to charge users a true market rate then they should simply get out of that business and let the private sector do it. If that where to happen I gaurantee you that the price would increase way more than the 21% that your TO council was considering.



I disagree with this. I work for a large-scale charitable arts organization with a very successful business model who consistantly delivers balanced budgets without excessive increases in user fees every single year for about a decade. Our operations (offices, production facility, etc.) cost a lot to run and we do so in a manner that employees still are able to have (such as myself) reasonable wages, benefits and lifestyles. We offer a number of different ticket prices to allow our audiences to take in our product regardless of their income.

What we do not do is excessively pay staff, splurge on uneccessary office luxuries and renovations, our executives and board don't travel around the world with their families staying in 5-star hotels and we do not take our donors (in governments case - taxpayers) money for granted. We realize that this money is given to us for a purpose and we use it as such. Our government should do the same.

You don't need a corporate business model to be successful - only an intelligent business model with controlled spending based upon need not want.

[mikejb]

We are ripping on the City of Toronto here PEOPLE!

If Toronto was run to within 1 - 100th of a percentage point of CPP, OTPP, OPB or the Caisse we would all be VERY happy tax paying citizens.

If you really want to get bothered about things read the committee notes on the new garbage program. What a bunch of backward looking idiots.

I am going to apply for a job, at least I will not work more than 27.5 hours a week.

[BowmanvilleJim]

bjmcisaac - I can tell you that services offered by municipal level gov'ts with a user fee (ice rinks, swimming pools, public transit etc ) do not recoup their costs thru user fees.

If each service was charged at a rate that would have it be profitable or even a break even situation then the user fees would have to be increased greatly.

Even your organization isn't revenue/cost neutral. Do you receive funding from gov't? Do you recieve donations for which no service is rendered? If so then you are very much like the municipal gov't.

You may not have obvious excess and waste but you aren't self sufficient either.

[Bjmcisaac]

bjmcisaac - I can tell you that services offered by municipal level gov'ts with a user fee (ice rinks, swimming pools, public transit etc ) do not recoup their costs thru user fees.

If each service was charged at a rate that would have it be profitable or even a break even situation then the user fees would have to be increased greatly.

Even your organization isn't revenue/cost neutral. Do you receive funding from gov't? Do you recieve donations for which no service is rendered? If so then you are very much like the municipal gov't.

You may not have obvious excess and waste but you aren't self sufficient either.

Yes, we receive a very small portion of our funding from government (almost nil from the municipal government), just as municipal governments also recieve funding from other levels of government (and complain for more while also increasing taxes).

No, our facility itself doesn't generate enough income from user fees (i.e. tickets) to fund itself but it also doesn't operate as a standalone unit. Neither do arenas. They (as do our organization) function as a whole with money generated from other a variety of sources. We receive donations, the government brings in tax dollars. The difference in this is that we have to work for our donations revenue and put on a quality product whereas the government can increase taxes to match their spending levels. The city of Toronto is not trying to balance each individual arenas budget with this increase. If it were, it would increase each arenas user fees by a different percentage on a basis of need. Instead, it is trying to balance its overall budget via this general increase to match its excessive spending and that is unacceptable.

My point was that there are similarities yet we are able to balance budgets due to the lack of obvious excess and waste that you spoke of, whereas governements (specifically ours, but the majority in the areas that I have lived in) can't seem to comprehend the concept. They simply increase fees and raise taxes to meet their spending rather than managing taxpayers dollars intelligantly and accountably.

[MP33]

Keeping to the theme of overspending at the City of Toronto, have a read in the Star today. Apparently, a 28 year veteran who's job it was to scrutinize councillor spending (auditor type) was fired without any cause on Monday. Apparently, councillors were not thrilled with the way he was diligently auditing their spending on such things as renting bunny costumes, liquor bills and expresso machines??.... Article states he is seeking legal advice which means more $$ out of tax payers pockets (defense..eventual payout,etc..)

Having worked at a municipality early in my career, it appears not much has changed from a silliness standpoint. Welcome to Wally World!!

[hogannut]

"Isn't it funny that EVERY business the teachers union is involved in is FUBAR!! "

Really. I take it you are not aware of hands off investments? This fund has been incredibly succesful and has outperformed the market for years.

Chill out...I was just joking. :p