Golf on the Decline

[Weirfan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/nyregion/21golf.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[davepratt]

Very interesting. I wonder if the numbers are similar in Ontario? I do believe we have over built as well. When I go to a small town in a remote area and see 3 courses within 5 miles of each other, I know the numbers can't be great. I further agree with the fact that it takes too long to play and that's why I'm so lucky to be able to play during the week as most of my work is performed evenings and weekends. As much as I love the game, if I were stuck with 6 hour weekend games only, I might consider hanging up the spikes as well.

[Merlot]

Very interesting. I wonder if the numbers are similar in Ontario? I do believe we have over built as well. When I go to a small town in a remote area and see 3 courses within 5 miles of each other, I know the numbers can't be great. I further agree with the fact that it takes too long to play and that's why I'm so lucky to be able to play during the week as most of my work is performed evenings and weekends. As much as I love the game, if I were stuck with 6 hour weekend games only, I might consider hanging up the spikes as well.

I think it would be like most other things that grow too fast. Al ot of people trying Golf and realizing it isn't for them. Also, aging population may start to affect numbers as well, as some can't play as much or at all anymore.

Alot of people started playing golf in the last 10 years or so and though it is a sport that can be played by everyone, it definitely isn't for everyone.

Six hour rounds definitely don't help. I think overall, people used to learn more about the game including ettiquite before they would play or play much. Now it doesn't matter and people do whatever they want on the course. "I paid the same as everyone else so I can do as I please" attitude is killing my joy out on the course.:(

Quote from article:
“The problem is time,” offered Walter Hurney, a real estate developer. “There just isn’t enough time. Men won’t spend a whole day away from their family anymore.”

I don't buy that one. Usually we are saying: What happened to family values etc... not being taught by absentee parents. Also, how about all the weekly play when kids are at school. alot of the USA has year round golf also. Alot of courses are busier then the weekend.

[goshawk]

Yes, a very interesting article. What I was wondering is whether the same circumstances applied to someplace like Florence, SC.....small town with several public and private courses that's not in "the Hamptons" (old money and lots of it).

[Merlot]

The last line in the article is hilarious.

Considering the well documented social and economic state of the USA and to a lesser degree here in Canada, does golf need a GREAT WHITE HOPE?

I remeber when people thought that is what boxing needed when it was on the decline.

[laps]

Interesting article.

In Canada, golf is now the number one sport in terms of number of participants. For men, it is slightly ahead of hockey.

The issue of time is a major concern for many people. I was playing five times a year until I joined ClubLink. Now I play 50 times per year, including nine holes after work or late on Saturday and Sunday. Rarely does it take more than 4.5 hours to play 18 holes.

The issue of family time was resolved by signing up the family (wife and two teenagers). At least half my games were with at least one family member and often all four of us play together. We will even bring some of the kids friends and get two foursomes going.

It makes for great family time and I usually play my best golf when I am playing with my family.

[Golden Bear]

Thus ends the myth that Tiger Woods has been bringing legions of new golfers to the game.

[Bellyhungry]

I have been hearing both golf is on the rise and on the decline at the same time since I started playing golf many many moons ago.

I did live around the NYC area for a bit and it is not the most conducive place to play golf. Given that most people use public transit around there, it is not as simple as just hop in the car and tee off 20-45 minutes later.

[Merlot]

Interesting article.

In Canada, golf is now the number one sport in terms of number of participants. For men, it is slightly ahead of hockey.

The issue of time is a major concern for many people. I was playing five times a year until I joined ClubLink. Now I play 50 times per year, including nine holes after work or late on Saturday and Sunday. Rarely does it take more than 4.5 hours to play 18 holes.

The issue of family time was resolved by signing up the family (wife and two teenagers). At least half my games were with at least one family member and often all four of us play together. We will even bring some of the kids friends and get two foursomes going.

It makes for great family time and I usually play my best golf when I am playing with my family.

This is a great solution to the family issue adn enabling yourself to play more golf.

But most people will not be able to afford (time and money wise) joining a club with the whole family let alone a Clublink course. Maybe golf brought on alot of newer golfers (Tiger effect?) who can't afford top name brand equipment along with playing more the 5 times a year or so. Thankfully greens fees are oming down but for the muni's and lesser courses, prices have risen which directly affects new player loured to the game by the hype over the last 10 years.

Stats can be misleading. The article stated the indusrty considers a CORE golfer to be on ethat plays 8 times or more a year. In a country where you can play golf year round or for much longer seasons then here in Canada, that ain't much IMHO.

Golf might be popular here becuase we can only play for half the year. By the time we are sick of it we can't play anymore and less than 5 months later we a yearning to return to the greens.

[davepratt]

Interesting article.

In Canada, golf is now the number one sport in terms of number of participants. For men, it is slightly ahead of hockey.



I would think that our changing demograhics would have a lot to do with the decline in hockey participation as more kids are playing sports like soccer, cricket and basketball. Virtually all public courses are in decline on the number of rounds to varying degrees. I don't think this just applies to public courses though as we're also seeing more and more private tracks offering one year trial memberships with no initiation and that was unheard of not so many years ago. 2006 Ipsos Reid study attached

[The Troll]

No question that private courses are hurting, save for the top name courses like Hamilton or Westmount.

As for the notion that time away from the family is an issue that agrees with my observation. The two private courses I've played at the last two years had amazing competition for the early morning weekend spots so they could get home. You couldn't find anyone out there on the weekend afternoons.

[Weirfan]

I would think that our changing demograhics would have a lot to do with the decline in hockey participation as more kids are playing sports like soccer, cricket and basketball. Virtually all public courses are in decline on the number of rounds to varying degrees. I don't think this just applies to public courses though as we're also seeing more and more private tracks offering one year trial memberships with no initiation and that was unheard of not so many years ago. 2006 Ipsos Reid study attached

actually soccer and basketball have surpased hockey in terms of participation by kids in Canada. Hockey ranks #3 now.

demographics, time and money play a big role here. When I was just out ( mid twenties) of University till my mid thirties....I averaged 100 or so rounds a year.

in my late 30's when I had kids, it dropped to under 10 a year and a few with none.......... now I am back up to 15-25 a year and that includes 6 that I get while on vacation

[Merlot]

actually soccer and basketball have surpased hockey in terms of participation by kids in Canada. Hockey ranks #3 now.

demographics, time and money play a big role here. When I was just out ( mid twenties) of University till my mid thirties....I averaged 100 or so rounds a year.

in my late 30's when I had kids, it dropped to under 10 a year and a few with none.......... now I am back up to 15-25 a year and that includes 6 that I get while on vacation

Still not enough golf specially when including vacation time. Need to get out more! Twice a week would be ideal for me but not enough time usually and I don't have kids.

[guitarman]

Very interesting. I wonder if the numbers are similar in Ontario? I do believe we have over built as well. When I go to a small town in a remote area and see 3 courses within 5 miles of each other, I know the numbers can't be great. I further agree with the fact that it takes too long to play and that's why I'm so lucky to be able to play during the week as most of my work is performed evenings and weekends. As much as I love the game, if I were stuck with 6 hour weekend games only, I might consider hanging up the spikes as well.

In the last 2 years I have played quite a bit. Averaging 80 to 100 rounds a season. I play through the week and alot on weekends. Rarely have I played a 6 hour round. It does happen but not often. 5 hour rounds have been a little more common although I can mostly count on 4 hour rounds during busy periods. I have gotten to know which courses are good and when and try to book accordingly. If 6 hour rounds became more common it might limit me in the amount of times I could spare a day for golf but it sure wouldn't make me hang up the spikes.

[Merlot]

In the last 2 years I have played quite a bit. Averaging 80 to 100 rounds a season. I play through the week and alot on weekends. Rarely have I played a 6 hour round. It does happen but not often. 5 hour rounds have been a little more common although I can mostly count on 4 hour rounds during busy periods. I have gotten to know which courses are good and when and try to book accordingly. If 6 hour rounds became more common it might limit me in the amount of times I could spare a day for golf but it sure wouldn't make me hang up the spikes.

6 hours would definitely make me think twice everytime a book a time. I can accept 4 1/2 to 5 hours but thats it.

You are very lucky(hardwork) to live a lifestyle that allows you to play so much.

[goshawk]

But most people will not be able to afford (time and money wise) joining a club with the whole family let alone a Clublink course.
A lot of the problem with this is being in the GTA, maybe Canada-wide. The price for joining "mediocre" private courses is so high in this area that it's cost prohibitive. As an example, for $3300, an unlimited membership at Wildcat Golf Club in Houston, a very nice challenging course always in great condition. Or $2040 for a family membership at Oak Harbor in New Orleans, another really nice course. And in both cases it's year round golf. Compare that to Islington ($5000), or The Briars ($7000), and in both cases there's also the initiation fee and monthly bar/food requirements. Not everyone is willing to pay that much to be able to play 1-2 rounds per week. I have no idea what the cost is for CL (I've never checked into it), but I'm pretty sure it's quite a lot higher. But then, there's the benefit of reciprocal courses involved with CL. To be fair, there are lower priced memberships to be had in the GTA as well. For instance, $3150 for full membership at the Deer Creek family (North, South, Glen Cedars and the Academy). But from what I've heard, those are the exceptions, not the rule.

[The Troll]

The price for joining "mediocre" private courses is so high in this area that it's cost prohibitive.

I think we are in for an era of much lower initiation costs at the second tier and lower courses in Ontario.

Some courses have realized that initiation costs are an impediment to getting members.

Looking forward to RT's next instalment of the state of private courses (hint, hint Robert)

[BowmanvilleJim]

I think golf is too expensive and memberships are way over priced. With the time limitations people have today many people have a hard time playing enough golf to justify a membership.

[golferboy]

He can introduce people to golf, but he sure isnt paying everyone's green fees...although he could afford it. I mean doing public appearances and promoting the game will show people what a great game it is....but the fact is its expensive to play...and not everyone has an extra 460 a week to play....Thus ends the myth that Tiger Woods has been bringing legions of new golfers to the game.

[Merlot]

I think golf is too expensive and memberships are way over priced. With the time limitations people have today many people have a hard time playing enough golf to justify a membership.

I agree. But I like well manicured courses. Specially fairly fast smooth greens. I guess this costs alot of money.

Royal Woodbines fees have dropped substantially over the years but so has the condition of the course to a more then noticeable degree.

[Golden Bear]

He can introduce people to golf, but he sure isnt paying everyone's green fees...although he could afford it. I mean doing public appearances and promoting the game will show people what a great game it is....but the fact is its expensive to play...and not everyone has an extra 460 a week to play....But my point is that people have been telling me (on this forum, too) that Tiger has been bringing legions of people to the game. The numbers show otherwise. There might be reasons why he's not bringing legions to the game -- cost, etc. (though golf was expensive in 1996, too). But the reality is that Tiger doesn't appear to be getting more golfers out on the course, contrary to what people have said.

[hogannut]

Wait 10 years and this will reverse itself. The baby boomers have about 10 years left to work and are very focused on the remaining time of their careers and don't want to spend 6 hours at a golf course. When they retire golf will be a huge business to be in. So save your pennies and buy a golf course because they will be busy again in another decade.

[Merlot]

But my point is that people have been telling me (on this forum, too) that Tiger has been bringing legions of people to the game. The numbers show otherwise. There might be reasons why he's not bringing legions to the game -- cost, etc. (though golf was expensive in 1996, too). But the reality is that Tiger doesn't appear to be getting more golfers out on the course, contrary to what people have said.

I think you are correct. The novelty has worn off so to speak.

Wait 10 years and this will reverse itself. The baby boomers have about 10 years left to work and are very focused on the remaining time of their careers and don't want to spend 6 hours at a golf course. When they retire golf will be a huge business to be in. So save your pennies and buy a golf course because they will be busy again in another decade.

This sounds like a sound prognostication? Sometimes things do change quickly though. Plus, thre are som many things to do these days with your time. Who knows what will be competing for our time adn cash in 10 years or so.

[davepratt]

Wait 10 years and this will reverse itself. The baby boomers have about 10 years left to work and are very focused on the remaining time of their careers and don't want to spend 6 hours at a golf course. When they retire golf will be a huge business to be in. So save your pennies and buy a golf course because they will be busy again in another decade.

Actually I saw a study that showed how the baby boomers in the GTA are now and will be for the next 15 years retiring with buckets of cash. Most of it comes from their parents who may have paid $12,000 for their home in 1952 and are selling them now for major dineros and that money is going to their kids. So you may be on to something here.

[hogannut]

The "Tiger Factor" too is also a reason. THink about how golf crazy everyone got in the late 90's early 2000's. The time in on the course, the time line in order to get better at the game, caused many people to quit. Think about all the companies that chose a golf tournament for their company events in that time period, and how many of those companies no longer have golf tournaments.

[The Troll]

The "Tiger Factor" too is also a reason.

I think there was a big Tiger Factor but I think that peaked years ago but courses were built based on that level of play.

Also, there was a big push towards more women playing the game for corporate reasons but that also seems to have slowed.

[dekker]

that was the only thing that was on the upswing it seemed to me. I don't think I have ever seen as many women on the courses as last year.
I came across a well sponsored and for Women only tournament out at Saw-whet last summer that had the trappings of a pro tournament in prizes!

But yes in general I think golf has taken it on the chin for several summers now but you won't hear any courses admitting to it. All I know is that everyone I talk to tells me they are playing less.

[Merlot]

[quote=dekker]that was the only thing that was on the upswing it seemed to me. I don't think I have ever seen as many women on the courses as last year.
I came across a well sponsored and for Women only tournament out at Saw-whet last summer that had the trappings of a pro tournament in prizes!

Definitely a big increase of women playing golf.

[Cybergolfer]

If I recall there was an article in Star in the eighties that showed the number of golf courses was declining. The courses were bought up and developed for housing. More golfers less courses supply and demand prices go up. Club Link didn't help.

[Big Shooter]

If I recall there was an article in Star in the eighties that showed the number of golf courses was declining.

...and this is relevant to today, how!? :confused:

[davepratt]

The Toronto Star has an article on this exact topic today. I think the reporter must be a golf nut spy:cool:

[JEBS]

To be honest I kinda hope that golf loses a little bit of its shine. When I was in high school I could get out for less $$ and most of the people on the course had some level of ability that there were very few 5+ hour rounds. I also remember the level of etiquette was a little higher.

Unfortunatley with the people in their late 50's and 60's retiring and probably retiring the best off in history their will be a huge surplus of expendable income that will come golf's way. My dad retired last year at the age of 57 and the first two things he did was 1) Buy Porshe 2) Join CL at Glencarin. So far it looks when I retire I can buy a used 1984 Yugo and buy a ten coupon book to the local mini-putt :(

[Merlot]

The Toronto Star has an article on this exact topic today. I think the reporter must be a golf nut spy:cool:

Thanks for the heads up on the article.

To be honest I kinda hope that golf loses a little bit of its shine. When I was in high school I could get out for less $$ and most of the people on the course had some level of ability that there were very few 5+ hour rounds. I also remember the level of etiquette was a little higher.

This is how I remember golf then too.

Unfortunatley with the people in their late 50's and 60's retiring and probably retiring the best off in history their will be a huge surplus of expendable income that will come golf's way. My dad retired last year at the age of 57 and the first two things he did was 1) Buy Porshe 2) Join CL at Glencarin. So far it looks when I retire I can buy a used 1984 Yugo and buy a ten coupon book to the local mini-putt :(

Same.:help:

[Big Shooter]

Same.:help:

maybe a Fuego!? :D:$