Olympics and Politics

[Bellyhungry]

In light of the recent Olympics/Tibet situation....What is your thought of mixing sports and politics, especially the Olympics?

[Golden Bear]

Well, the IOC invited it. They went to China as part of some ill-conceived notion that they'd be setting an example for China and the world, and that somehow they'd bring us all together in the spirit of peace, blah blah blah.

When China was awarded the games, everyone pointed out the human rights abuses, etc. The IOC stupidly thought that having the games would make China shape up. The IOC thinks far too highly of themselves.

However, I don't like the protestors disrupting the torch relay. It doesn't hurt China or the IOC much at all. It's not REALLY going to stop the flame from being lit in August. All it's accomplishing is taking the opportunity for some citizen to get the thrill of carrying the Olympic torch.

[Merlot]

There would be a lot of very legit reasons to boycott most every site of the olympics over the years.

The Olympics to me are about bringing people together from all parts of the world to compete with good cheer. It would be hard to instill that when competing in places like China but many coul dargue the USA too.

Thing is, the propaganda is so slick these days, who knows what is true. Did I not read and hear the flame has been doused 3 times already due to Tibetan protestors getting violent? How can that be?

Like global warming? I know alot of intelligent and well educated men who refuse to even consider any influence caused by man on the atmosphere. Alot of them also make 7 figures plus and burn/consume alot more then most.

[Bellyhungry]

I feel for the athletes who dedicate their lives training for the events. I am not talking about the mega millionaires like the Dream teams but rather some men and women in the third world. Now these people are being used as political pawn.

[Golden Bear]

I feel for the athletes who dedicate their lives training for the events. I am not talking about the mega millionaires like the Dream teams but rather some men and women in the third world. Now these people are being used as political pawn.I agree, and as I said, I blame the IOC for selecting Beijing in the first place in some ill-advised fit of "we'll solve the world's problems" nonsense.

On the other hand, if they hadn't selected Beijing, I would be complaining about the construction headaches and the coming traffic chaos in Toronto this summer. (Moreso than every other summer, that is.)

[Merlot]

I feel for the athletes who dedicate their lives training for the events. I am not talking about the mega millionaires like the Dream teams but rather some men and women in the third world. Now these people are being used as political pawn.

Innocence is lost.

I agree, and as I said, I blame the IOC for selecting Beijing in the first place in some ill-advised fit of "we'll solve the world's problems" nonsense.

On the other hand, if they hadn't selected Beijing, I would be complaining about the construction headaches and the coming traffic chaos in Toronto this summer. (Moreso than every other summer, that is.)

So true.

Listening to Prime Time Sports and Scott Moore just brought up a good point. Would other countries be justified to boycott any games here in Canada due to how we have handled Native canadians here?

There would be a lot of very legit reasons to boycott most every site of the olympics over the years.

The Olympics to me are about bringing people together from all parts of the world to compete with good cheer. It would be hard to instill that when competing in places like China but many coul dargue the USA too.

Thing is, the propaganda is so slick these days, who knows what is true. Did I not read and hear the flame has been doused 3 times already due to Tibetan protestors getting violent? How can that be?

Like global warming? I know alot of intelligent and well educated men who refuse to even consider any influence caused by man on the atmosphere. Alot of them also make 7 figures plus and burn/consume alot more then most.

How about the Olympics being a politcal event in its heart. People waving flags and playing national anthems adn putting on a big show and propping up the city it is in to make th ecountry look better? ( Brunt)

[Golden Bear]

Whether they'd be justified or not, they wouldn't do it. No one wants to mess with Canada. They're scared of us.

[Merlot]

Whether they'd be justified or not, they wouldn't do it. No one wants to mess with Canada. They're scared of us.

:rofl: We get our tough rep from hockey brawls and figure skaters who beat up hockey players. :rofl:

[MP33]

It's hard to separate the Olympics and politics. Some of the greatest moments in Olympic history have been fueled by politics. Take Jessie Owens at the 36 Olympics. His 4 gold medals helped dispelled the Nazi code of the perfect race. Closer to home, the "Miracle on Ice" was a tremendous upset from a sporting perspective but IMO, the fact that the US beat the USSR (at their game) during the height of the cold war made the event more dramatic and spectacular in the eyes of the world.

[ylynnad]

Let the game begins, who cares about politics.

[Big Shooter]

Tough call, I see both sides.
As an Olympic athlete, this is what you've practiced for...
...but China's record speaks for itself!

I say let the games begin!

:dunno:

[golfpal]

I agree it is tough to separate the two. It just is a shame for the athletes who look up to these moments some for years. They picked the wrong place and should never have given it to China as there are so many problems and something appeared to be a good exciting time becomes immeshed in a mess of Chinas misdoings which everyone knew about when choosing them. It's sad I think for all those participating or maybe not being able to. :confused:

[Merlot]

The olympics are about poeple from different countries waving thier flag and singing thier national anthem while competing in sport. How can it not be political? Each athlete would say they are proud of thier country etc...

It is what it is. :rofl: Hate that saying.

[hogannut]

I have considered the Olympics "tainted" ever since they allowed professional athletes to participate. The Olympics were created for AMATUERS, so I have not really followed any Olympics since then.

As for what is happening now China needs to clean up its act if it truly wants to be considered a world class country. Just because you have workers who are willing to work for 50 cents an hour and therefore can under cut every other country in the world doesn't make you a great country.

THe environmental impact China as a country is making on the planet will be felt for decades if not centuries, so obviously I am not a China supporter.

[Merlot]

I have considered the Olympics "tainted" ever since they allowed professional athletes to participate. The Olympics were created for AMATUERS, so I have not really followed any Olympics since then.

As for what is happening now China needs to clean up its act if it truly wants to be considered a world class country. Just because you have workers who are willing to work for 50 cents an hour and therefore can under cut every other country in the world doesn't make you a great country.

THe environmental impact China as a country is making on the planet will be felt for decades if not centuries, so obviously I am not a China supporter.

Well said. We are the ones supposedly benefiting with cheap products from china and throughout the far east. Wait till corporations(people if some weren't aware of who ran them) start to exploit africa for more then just resources.

[cldale]

I had this out with a friend of mine yesterday. I thought from the outset that the choice of China was a poor and ill advised one, and I was determined not to watch these olympics because I don't believe the "olympic spirit" can possibly exist in a country which denies its people basic freedoms.

The attacks on the torch relay and all the banners are, to me, proof that the voice of freedom cannot be silenced and that a good cause will ALWAYS find a voice.

That said, I think the athletes who AREN'T professionals, and who dedicate a significant portion of their lives to preparing for these games shouldn't have their efforts sullied simply because of where the games are being held.

[cdnputter]

I have considered the Olympics "tainted" ever since they allowed professional athletes to participate. The Olympics were created for AMATUERS, so I have not really followed any Olympics since then.

What exactly constitutes an Amateur now? An athlete that does not get compensation to compete in their sport? The Olympics have had professional athletes for a very long time, the old Soviet Union started that process to promote the supposed merits of their socialism. Just about every country on the planet does that now, especially one that is scheduled to hold an Olympics.

As for what is happening now China needs to clean up its act if it truly wants to be considered a world class country. Just because you have workers who are willing to work for 50 cents an hour and therefore can under cut every other country in the world doesn't make you a great country.

Do you honestly think those workers are willing to work for 50 cents an hour? Why do you think people from 2nd or 3rd World countries die trying to get into Canada or the US? For the pay raise most likely and also for the relief from the depressed economies and lower standard of living.

Just my thoughts on this topic, we don't do enough before we're encountering a situation like this. We could have protested China's human rights issues and low standard of environmental concern years ago by the simple process of not buying from them. However someone over here found that if we moved our dangerous production techniques to the Far East, we'd make more money and increase our standard of living. The Westernized countries need to take responsibility for enabling China to get this far while ignoring the problems China currently has.

[cldale]

Like global warming? I know alot of intelligent and well educated men who refuse to even consider any influence caused by man on the atmosphere. Alot of them also make 7 figures plus and burn/consume alot more then most.

This deserves its own thread, but I know a lot of very smart, intelligent people who completely disregard any evidence that is ever brought forth that contradicts the conclusions of the IPCC.

[Merlot]

What exactly constitutes an Amateur now? An athlete that does not get compensation to compete in their sport? The Olympics have had professional athletes for a very long time, the old Soviet Union started that process to promote the supposed merits of their socialism. Just about every country on the planet does that now, especially one that is scheduled to hold an Olympics.



Do you honestly think those workers are willing to work for 50 cents an hour? Why do you think people from 2nd or 3rd World countries die trying to get into Canada or the US? For the pay raise most likely and also for the relief from the depressed economies and lower standard of living.

Just my thoughts on this topic, we don't do enough before we're encountering a situation like this. We could have protested China's human rights issues and low standard of environmental concern years ago by the simple process of not buying from them. However someone over here found that if we moved our dangerous production techniques to the Far East, we'd make more money and increase our standard of living. The Westernized countries need to take responsibility for enabling China to get this far while ignoring the problems China currently has.

Soem good points but I think Hogan Nut didn't mean free will exactly regarding working for 50 cents an hour.

Our standard of living will be dropping as our unemployemnt starts to rise as we still need manufacturing jobs. Not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer etc...

Its not just dangerous manufacturing jobs, it's most any product that can be made there adn shipped over here for less ttoal cost including environmental issues etc.. let alone the cost of labour.

This deserves its own thread, but I know a lot of very smart, intelligent people who completely disregard any evidence that is ever brought forth that contradicts the conclusions of the IPCC.

Thats my point. Only time will tell. When you take into account the timing of global warming, the history of the earth as we think we know it and the industrial revolution with the dramatic increase of fossil fuels being burned, it would be naive to just say the evidence isn't conclusive enough so whatever.

Some people dn't believe in carbon dating adn some people believe the earth was made in 7 days. They are 'very smart people' who believe these things also.

[cdnputter]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure hogannut didn't mean that the guy or girl on the production loves the 50 cents an hour, I was merely pointing out that they aren't choosing it, but it left with no other options they'll take the 50 cents.

Our standard of living here will have more to do with an aging population who are leaving the work force without the same number of trained replacement workers following them, yes I mean the baby boomers who are retiring and the Gen X and Gen Y kids who don't want to work.

[jayda]

I hate politicians! enough said...

[Bellyhungry]

I don't like people from both sides of this fiasco.

We want affordable luxuries and so we import cheap goods from China, then we take the moral high ground and point the finger. I especially don't like France's stance after they themselves categorically alienate the immigrants (see the summer riot a couple of years ago). On the other hand, China want to get on the world stage while giving lip service to the rest of the world.

This thing is gonna get a lot uglier before it gets better (if ever). I hope they just cancel the whole damned thing so that everyone can go back to what they were doing before they get all excited: China can continue to abuse human right, we can continue to complain about them while enjoying luxuries that we otherwise wouldn't be able to afford; Dalai Lama can go around giving lectures and selling books; and those activists can pick something else (US, seal hunt, environment, etc...) to protest about.

[cldale]

Thats my point. Only time will tell. When you take into account the timing of global warming, the history of the earth as we think we know it and the industrial revolution with the dramatic increase of fossil fuels being burned, it would be naive to just say the evidence isn't conclusive enough so whatever.

Well, the point I was trying to make was just that its not as open and shut a case and Al Gore wants the world to believe, and that there is disagreement in the scientific community, but political ideology is sweeping this under the rug.

I saw an interview where Al Gore said questiong the conclusions of the IPCC was equivalent to questioning the Holocaust.

I grew up in a world where I was taught that critical analysis and healthy debate were positive things, but the supposed "democrat" is telling me that I can have no dissent on this matter? Doesn't taste right to me, tastes fishy in fact.

Some people dn't believe in carbon dating adn some people believe the earth was made in 7 days. They are 'very smart people' who believe these things also.

Haha, like Stockwell Day? I don't know if I'd be so generous as to call someone who really truly believes in Genesis a "very smart" person.

[trunckslammer1]

As for what is happening now China needs to clean up its act if it truly wants to be considered a world class country. Just because you have workers who are willing to work for 50 cents an hour and therefore can under cut every other country in the world doesn't make you a great country.

THe environmental impact China as a country is making on the planet will be felt for decades if not centuries, so obviously I am not a China supporter.

First of all, the wage at 50 cents an hour is reflective of the standard of living. In most Asian countries, the employer provides housing, food etc. and at the end of the month, you NET $200.00. This is more then I can say about our minimum wage of $8.00 per hour and it is NOT even a Living wage. There is not as much poverty in the Asian countries as we see here even Good old TO.
Why is it that now, we in the developed countries, after screwing up the environment with our SUV's, disposable plates, tissues, paper towels etc. ask these developing countries NOT to develop - do not drive cars, do not use disposal items etc. What a double standard. China and India, on a per capita basis uses less waste then we, here in North America uses.

On a somewhat related note. When Priests, Cleric, Monks become political and decide that they want more then being your spiritual mentor, that is when you will have suicide bombers etc. It is easy to vent when you do not have to go out and make a living. All you do is to rely on your followers to provide for you. The more radical you become, the more followers you get.

History has shown that Irish Catholics were forced to donate to the Church even when they could not put food on to table. Why is Islam the fastest growing religion. This is because if you are poor, you enroll and become a cleric. This why, you do not have to fight for your daily bread. In Sri Lanka, Thailand, Tibet, it is the same. The poor bring their sons to the monastery and ask them to take them in as there are unable to feed them.

Those of us who live in the West should take our head out of the sand and stop moralizing, stop interfering. Every time we interfere, we create more chaos. Native Schools in this country is another example of one culture behaving as though they are superior and know better.

[hogannut]

I understand what you are saying here trunk slammer, and to everyone else I also understand that western culture is the biggest reason why China is doing what they are doing. However the reality is that China as a country has little concern about the rest of the world or how they as 20% of the planets human population affect the environment.

For example I have seen the footage of what those shark boats do, and it was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. Cutting off the fins and throwing the live shark back in the ocean to essentially die has nothing to do with western culture influence.

Having said that I also agree that North AMerican companies who move their operations over there are essentially supporting sweat shop mentality, and that is wrong too.

As for the comment on native schools I understand what you are saying here too, but I would also say that North AMerican native culture lasted for thousands of years and did not impact on the planets health. European settlement has pretty much destroyed most of the natural resources in North America over 2-3 centuries, so who do you think would have a better chance of longevity over time?

[golfpal]

In answer to your question yes I guess Olympics and Politics do have something to do with each other as for if the Olympics wasn't in China none of use would be on this site whining, we would still be buying all our china imported goods for cheaper and being a hypocite like most people are in the end. China needs to clean up their act and unless they decide to do it the same will go one for years more. So maybe it's good the Olympics ended up in China. So guess the Olympics does mix with politics.

[Merlot]

First of all, the wage at 50 cents an hour is reflective of the standard of living. In most Asian countries, the employer provides housing, food etc. and at the end of the month, you NET $200.00. This is more then I can say about our minimum wage of $8.00 per hour and it is NOT even a Living wage. There is not as much poverty in the Asian countries as we see here even Good old TO.
.

Do you mean people in china/myanmar/india/pakistan as a whole live in better sanitary conditions? Have access to quality and safe food product and drinking water? Or how about medical service? If you have been to these countries you may have a totally different opinion of what 'poverty' is?

I think people living in China making the 'minimum wage' are far less better off then people her in canada making the minimum wage.

All that said, the minimum wage needs to be raised even more and we need to figue out how to do that without the 'major' repercussions threatened by large corporations. I also nderstand that small bussinesses will be affected tremendously but it will just create a higher standard of business practices adn hopefull a higher standard of respect amongst ourselves.

In answer to your question yes I guess Olympics and Politics do have something to do with each other as for if the Olympics wasn't in China none of use would be on this site whining, we would still be buying all our china imported goods for cheaper and being a hypocite like most people are in the end. China needs to clean up their act and unless they decide to do it the same will go one for years more. So maybe it's good the Olympics ended up in China. So guess the Olympics does mix with politics.

Very true. The collective thoguhts and actions of societies would warrant the worst crminal punishment if prosecuted as individuals. Actually, they would get of with some type of insanity defence as that is what it is.

Insane.

[trunckslammer1]

Do you mean people in china/myanmar/india/pakistan as a whole live in better sanitary conditions? Have access to quality and safe food product and drinking water? Or how about medical service? If you have been to these countries you may have a totally different opinion of what 'poverty' is?


I was there this year. Yes, the conditions remind me of 30 years ago when I was growing up in Singapore. They are backward, but within the next 10 years, they will achieve what we took 30 years to do in Singapore. In their effort to modernise, there will be a lot of collateral damage, the Yang Tse dam being one of them, but like they say, No Pain, No Gain.

"Poverty" is relative to where one live.

[Merlot]

I was there this year. Yes, the conditions remind me of 30 years ago when I was growing up in Singapore. They are backward, but within the next 10 years, they will achieve what we took 30 years to do in Singapore. In their effort to modernise, there will be a lot of collateral damage, the Yang Tse dam being one of them, but like they say, No Pain, No Gain.

"Poverty" is relative to where one live.

Yes, poverty is relative but some conditions are universal such as clean drinking water, decent medical facilities for all etc... I hope they can achieve this and learn from our mistakes also. 'Western 1st world' countries need to step up and make changes for the better of all also. If not, why should anyone else?

I think the more we discover and create or invent, the more we will realize that alot of the extravagant material things we can have mean nothing.

This means me and I try to do things like reducing my consumption or gving my time to 'good causes' other then ones that affect me directly.

[johnthegolfer]

I feel for the athletes who dedicate their lives training for the events. I am not talking about the mega millionaires like the Dream teams but rather some men and women in the third world. Now these people are being used as political pawn.

We shouldn't use the athletes to put political pressure on the Chinese government. Instead of boycotting the games, the governments should put tariffs on goods produced in China unless the producers can prove that the goods are produced in an acceptable manner - using proper labour (no children, prisoners, forced labour), raw materials and components from acceptable sources, that the company is located in a region that respects and enforces human rights, that environmental controls are strong and enforced, and the products are genuine (i.e. not knock-offs of products designed and developed elsewhere) etc.. Certified manufacturing operations could then apply a label that allows consumers to know that the goods they are buying are produced under humane circumstances. Similar to labelling that shows goods to be 'certified organic' or 'certified fair trade'. We could then preovide preferential import regulations for these goods and consumers could make their decision when buying products as to whether they are willing to pay a little more for goods produced fairly.

To be fair, this could be an international movement, similar to 'Fair Trade' but aimed at encouraging and enshrining universal human rights. China is not the only place using child/forced/prison labour, flouting environmental safeguards for profit.

China desperately needs foreign currency to continue development and a code whereby products must be made in proper conditions (not just the factory but also the regional politics) would force the government to enact laws to protect employees, the local populace, and the environment.

Boycotting the games would be a huge embarassment to the Chinese and a huge loss of face, but won't make them change anything in the way that they treat (some of) their people, (and not just the Tibetans).

[golfpal]

Would totally agree well said!