Pesticide Ban

[coursy]

Hey Guys,

The proposed pesticide ban for Ontario originally excluded golf courses, but many have spoke against the golf course exemption. I am a golf superintendent that knows that the conditions that you enjoy are not currently achievable without pesticides. What are your feelings on this?

Coursy

[BowmanvilleJim]

I support the ban on residential use. I am against any ban for golf courses.

There are two reasons for this. The first is that the golf courses are businesses trying to attract customers and that includes tourists which are important to the economy. The second is that the golf courses have or should have people who are trained and professional about the use of pesticides. I believe that when they are used appropriately they can be safe.

Home owners don't even read the label.

[goshawk]

I'm with you Jim. Most people who use pesticides on their lawn and gardens don't read the instructions or over-use them "just to make sure". Golf course and public park superintendents are trained in the use of pesticides, and they also have access to pesticides that are less harmful to the environment than the typical lawn bug killers like Wipeout.

[Big Shooter]

I'm for pesticide use, everywhere!

[nearace]

I'm for pesticide use, everywhere!I am with BS on this one,just wait till all our lawns are full of dandilions:mad: .

[Cybergolfer]

I see no problem here banning chemical pesticide use on golf course except on situations where organic methods fail. This more than just a situational use of chemical pesticides It involves the moving away from chemical fertilizers which actually deplete the soils to organic ones which actually strengthen soils and in the long run we have stronger plants which in turn are more disease resistant less pesticide use. There several golf courses in the use which have moved away from chemicals I believe one is Beth Page(or moving away)Many golf courses are situated on rivers which pesticides can run in doing who knows what damage to our health and more important the childrens health who have not developed immune systems.

[coursy]

To Cyber Golfer

I agree that this is the direction we need to go BUT right now, there are not enough products to use that are available and those that are available are not affordable. We may be there in five years but right now we are not. As far as fertilizers, nitrogen is nitrogen and that from synthetic is identical to that from manure or other organic sources. What it all comes down to is: will the golfer pay more for lesser conditions??? That is where this current ban may have us heading.

Coursy

[dekker]

Never let it be said that golfers are tree-huggers to begin with but I think our preoccupation with pristine conditions is unhealthy and unsustainable in the long run. All fertilizer and pesticide end up in the water table and eventually pass up in our food chain. The world wide use of nitrogen rich fertilizers is impacting the oceans at an alarming rate and since they are the ultimate sustenance of all life we are literally crapping in our soup bowls.
Perversely we also made a trade-off between pesticides agricultural benefits over any health hazard.We have always known that pesticides are a hazard to all animal life in any concentration, but under pressure to produce food we created artificial tolerance tables and flaunt them as gospel.

Coursy , I know you have a job to do and want to give us the best, but I think golfers need to be educated that this game is more than perfect fairways and oak locker rooms. Reality sucks but so does the green algae in our water.

[Pingnut]

I played Prais Grand one year when they hadn't used used pesticides. Truthfully a couple dandilions here and there didn't bother me to much.

[mjongstra]

Never let it be said that golfers are tree-huggers to begin with but I think our preoccupation with pristine conditions is unhealthy and unsustainable in the long run. All fertilizer and pesticide end up in the water table and eventually pass up in our food chain. The world wide use of nitrogen rich fertilizers is impacting the oceans at an alarming rate and since they are the ultimate sustenance of all life we are literally crapping in our soup bowls.
Perversely we also made a trade-off between pesticides agricultural benefits over any health hazard.We have always known that pesticides are a hazard to all animal life in any concentration, but under pressure to produce food we created artificial tolerance tables and flaunt them as gospel.

Coursy , I know you have a job to do and want to give us the best, but I think golfers need to be educated that this game is more than perfect fairways and oak locker rooms. Reality sucks but so does the green algae in our water.
Well said! Unfortunately humans have ignored the planet for too long and now it's starting to come back and bite us in the @ss. It's time we realize our mistakes and fix the problem and unfortunately that means making some sacrifises and if that means having dandelions in my yard or on the fairway so be it. I am more than willing to pay more in the short term to cover the costs of the new, more eco-friendly products but as time goes on and these products get more and more popular prices will go down.

[fins & skins]

If you all are so eco-friendly park your cars in the laneway and walk to work....... or take a bike. How about you buy a push mower for your home lawn, the ones sans an engine. Cut the electricity from your home and go back to the turn of the last century (read 1900).


Its always easy for people to point the finger at the earth's problems until it effects you.


Coursy, I applaud you and your profession for giving us the conditions that you do.

[Cybergolfer]

If you all are so eco-friendly park your cars in the laneway and walk to work....... or take a bike. How about you buy a push mower for your home lawn, the ones sans an engine. Cut the electricity from your home and go back to the turn of the last century (read 1900).


Its always easy for people to point the finger at the earth's problems until it effects you.


Coursy, I applaud you and your profession for giving us the conditions that you do.

You seem to have a knowledge problem here. Chemical fertilizers deplete the soil of nutrients causing more to be needed reducing the amount of top soil increasing costs higher green fees weaking plants. Organic fertilizers increase the microorganisms making for healthy environments. This makes for healthier grasses reduces the amount of fertilizer or pesticide use. This reduces overall maintenance cost which should keep green fees down.

The point here is that the same or better conditions can be had without the use of chemicals.

[dekker]

I know this thread was originally intended on the use of pesticides in golf however the hypocritical stance on part of the government speaks more of expediency than real safety issues.
To combat the Japanese and other beetle infestation they are instigating helicopter based arial spraying over Toronto residential properties.
They recommend that you stay inside during that period.

[Cybergolfer]

To Cyber Golfer

I agree that this is the direction we need to go BUT right now, there are not enough products to use that are available and those that are available are not affordable. We may be there in five years but right now we are not. As far as fertilizers, nitrogen is nitrogen and that from synthetic is identical to that from manure or other organic sources. What it all comes down to is: will the golfer pay more for lesser conditions??? That is where this current ban may have us heading.

Coursy


I don't see conditions worsening but getting better or the same. NPK is NPK but chemical fertilizers are not the same as organic ones. Around 25 yrs ago I got involved with a person who had a process that would change chicken poop to fertilizer. Unfortunately US states laws where such that it made it difficult to transport the stuff from state to state so it was dropped.
Now there was a 5 yr study on the product. A cherry farm in NSW had half done in chemical fertilizer the other in the organic one.
First year to make the study comparable more organic had to be used to make up for the difference in NPK. Right now I'm guessing but it was around 30% more in cost. What did happen was that the yield was 10% higher and partially offset the fertilizer cost. Every year soil samples where taken and it found that every year less fertilizer was need. Eventually by the 5th yr only half was used. Now the yield stayed the same but the cherries increased in size and were sweeter than the chemical ones.
BTW I have read that there is an organic herbicide.
Organic fertilizer strengthen plants root system make them more resistance to disease. Now in the long run doesn't this economical sense if you will use less fertilizer & less herbicides.

I know this thread was originally intended on the use of pesticides in golf however the hypocritical stance on part of the government speaks more of expediency than real safety issues.
To combat the Japanese and other beetle infestation they are instigating helicopter based arial spraying over Toronto residential properties.
They recommend that you stay inside during that period.

When is this to take place. Unfortunately this infestation is very serious and need to dealt with.

[dekker]

This was overheard on a CBC radio broadcast only a few days ago.I don't recall the time line but it was supposed to be within weeks.

I'm not the garden freak in my family ,my wife is, and the tidbits I gather is that chemical fertilizer compacts the soil whereas the organic stuff has the ability to loosen the soil structure. Amongst other things this allows increased bacterial growth which process the nitrogen for the root system to absorb.

[fairtree]

The issue of fertlizer is not the issue coursy is discussing that is posing a problem. Organic fertilzers can be great and make the plant healthier than ever before. This will it to be strong and help prevent weeds from taking root. But the diseases/ fungus that occur in bentgrass can be devastating. Bethpage Black used 6 greens all organic during a test for Cornell University and once dollar spot infected the green it had to be resodded. Dollar spot and Pythium Blyte can destroy thousands of square feet in a couple of days without a fungicide to prevent or check the disease. Our golf courses can follow bethapge black with the use of organic fertilizers for sure, but to eliminate pesticides/herbicides and fungicides completely will be devestating to all golf courses. I agree with what you say that organic fertilizers should be used and in certain situations that chemicals are needed they should be allowed. The ban may take this option away and there are not organic herbicides that have shown any significant results. U of Florida compared the use of the organic herbicide to Roundup Pro for farmers and they were almost useless. The organic versions of golf course grade herbicides/fungicides/pesticides unfortunatley does not exist yet. I agree with your idea and hopefully we can get there.

[Cybergolfer]

[quote=fairtree]The issue of fertlizer is not the issue coursy is discussing that is posing a problem. Organic fertilzers can be great and make the plant healthier than ever before. This will it to be strong and help prevent weeds from taking root. But the diseases/ fungus that occur in bentgrass can be devastating. Bethpage Black used 6 greens all organic during a test for Cornell University and once dollar spot infected the green it had to be resodded. Dollar spot and Pythium Blyte can destroy thousands of square feet in a couple of days without a fungicide to prevent or check the disease. Our golf courses can follow bethapge black with the use of organic fertilizers for sure, but to eliminate pesticides/herbicides and fungicides completely will be devestating to all golf courses.

I know what happened. So until the organic procees takes hold which will takes severals years we ill need to keep some sort of chemical around. As far an organic herbicide I thought I read that some Canadian University has developed a commercial one. Where it's on the market that I don't know.

[fins & skins]

You seem to have a knowledge problem here. Chemical fertilizers deplete the soil of nutrients causing more to be needed reducing the amount of top soil increasing costs higher green fees weaking plants. Organic fertilizers increase the microorganisms making for healthy environments. This makes for healthier grasses reduces the amount of fertilizer or pesticide use. This reduces overall maintenance cost which should keep green fees down.

The point here is that the same or better conditions can be had without the use of chemicals.

I have a knowledge problem? Seems to me you could be healthier by walking everywhere you went without polluting the environment and you would still get there - same result. Your grass would still get cut without use of an engine and again you would not harm the environment. You could always cook over an open fire, wash clothes by hand, light by candle and help take the nuke and coal fired plants off line. You would still live just fine.

Go take a look in the local Canadian Tire parking lot next time you go there. How much oil, grease, gas and antifreeze do you see? Where do you suppose all that goes everytime it rains? Yet your worried about a golf course that may possibly get some chemical or fertilizer into a creek? Seems to me that there are more parking lots out there then golf courses.

Is your memory so short that you forget Walkerton? Seems to me that your Organic substitute did a good job at killing quite a few people. I never heard of chemical fertilizer or pesticides doing that.

As I said it all depends on what part of the "environmental pollution" you want to pick on.

[guitarman]

I have a knowledge problem? Seems to me you could be healthier by walking everywhere you went without polluting the environment and you would still get there - same result. Your grass would still get cut without use of an engine and again you would not harm the environment. You could always cook over an open fire, wash clothes by hand, light by candle and help take the nuke and coal fired plants off line. You would still live just fine.



Pretty silly post. So what are you saying? All or nothing? Its not about going back to the stone age all in one leap but about reducing our contribution to the problem.
I would love to walk or bike to work. And at one time I did. Now I work out of town and there is no suitable transit from Brantford to Hamilton.
There are many things you can do though to reduce your contribution to pollution.
What I do for alot of the big weeds and unwanted growth between sidwalk cracks is to pour boiling water or white vinegar on them. Both methods work for me. Okay it doesn't solve the golf course issue but this is one of my small contributions for an alternate method to pesticide use. I don't use pesticides. My lawn is far from perfect and its more work to keep it weed free but I'm not using pesticides.

[bythehour]

I don't think anyone here is defending synthetic fertilizers as a risk-free and safe product. If we acknowledge that there is risk, the question then becomes why should we (as golfers) be exempt from the ban?

I love green greens as much as the next guy, but I can't justify it.

This is a recreational past-time for me. We can still play golf without pesticides.

I don't see how a hobby can trump environmental responsibility.

As for course owners "needing" pesticides to run their business, if everyone were subject to the same rules, there would not be any competitive disadvantage.

[johnthegolfer]

Hey Guys,

The proposed pesticide ban for Ontario originally excluded golf courses, but many have spoke against the golf course exemption. I am a golf superintendent that knows that the conditions that you enjoy are not currently achievable without pesticides. What are your feelings on this?

Coursy

When they ban pesticides on farms and other commercial operations then I will support bans at golf courses.
I know golf courses use as little of the stuff as possible for two reasons - saving money and also since the stink turns some customers off.
If they could do without any at all, they would.

I support the pesticide ban for residential property as none of us has to have the perfect green lawn and there are a lot of people for whom pesticides are a serious health hazard. (for others it is just an awful stench). I haven't used pesticides for a decade or more - it only takes ten minutes every few days to keep teh dandelions and others under control.

[fins & skins]

Pretty silly post. So what are you saying? All or nothing? Its not about going back to the stone age all in one leap but about reducing our contribution to the problem.
I would love to walk or bike to work. And at one time I did. Now I work out of town and there is no suitable transit from Brantford to Hamilton.
There are many things you can do though to reduce your contribution to pollution.
What I do for alot of the big weeds and unwanted growth between sidwalk cracks is to pour boiling water or white vinegar on them. Both methods work for me. Okay it doesn't solve the golf course issue but this is one of my small contributions for an alternate method to pesticide use. I don't use pesticides. My lawn is far from perfect and its more work to keep it weed free but I'm not using pesticides.

Your right it is somewhat silly. Fact of the matter here is the principal. People are willing to attack one segment that is an overall small player in the big picture.

Take a look at almost any golf course in an urban setting. These properties hold more wildlife then any of the surrounding area. When is the last time you saw a deer in downtown Oakville? I see deer there everytime I play. Same thing with the Hunt Club in London. I could go on and on naming course after course that provides viable habitat for numerous species of wildlife.

Lets take something as simple Imdchloprid. This active ingridient is on a list of proposed banned products for lawns. My lawncare company spreads it on my lawn every year for grub control. On the other hand you have a product called Advantix.This product has the exact same ingridient as the grub control product. You know what advantix is used for? Flea and tick control in dogs. It is most likely applied by a dog owner bare handed. So I ask why is this product ok to give directly to your dog bare hand but not ok to apply to your lawn? This is one product in a long list of many that are proposed to be banned for lawncare but are ok to use in your household.

The same people that are pushing for the ban fail to realize that most of the food they orally consume had these prducts applied directly to them before they ate it. Last time I checked people do not eat grass.

Its a weak case that will be voted through by ignorant people that ignore the facts.

[laps]

I agree that golf courses should be allowed to use pesticides, but that it should be regulated. Superintendents should have guidelines that minimise the use of pesticides, and more importantly golfers should increase their tolerance for imperfections on the golf course. During last year's drought many golfers were complaining that golf courses were brown and hard. As golfers we should be prpeared t play in whatecer mother nature throws at us.