Natural Golf Swing

[Jaydog]

a friend of mine was talking about the natural golf swing.

the four tenets are (taken from http://www.naturalgolf.com/Method.aspx):
1) The Palm Grip
2) The Single-Plane, Straight-Line Setup
3) A Wider Stance
4) Facing The Ball At Impact

i went to http://www.cegolf.com/moe.htm and found that i am siding with this guy.

i prefer not reading testimonials from sites that promote their own product.
is anyone using it? just curious.

[RidetoGolf]

I just switched to the 'natural' golf swing couple of weeks ago. I didn't know I was using the natural golf swing until my friend told me. The natural swing doesn't look natural at all. I personally don't like it, but what the heck, it works for me - at least it fixed my slice.

But I will try to go back to the traditional swing during the winter break.

[Ego Woods]

I bumped into an old highschool acquaintance and he was raving about the natural golf swing....he told me it bumped him down from a 10 handicap to a 4 handicap......claimed shots were much more consistent and the swing was very easy to repeat.......it probably won't help you much if ur already a 5 or less handicap .....i definitely like to find out what it's all about...anyone want to make a VHS copy for me? :D

[Shadow]

Have just completed my 9th year using a single axis swing. Prefer to use this term as Natural Golf is a corporation that has modified the original Natural Golf swing "invented" by Jack Keuykendall.

Was a 2 handicap when I started and the index has fluctuated between 1.8 and +.8 during the 9 years. While there are off days like everyone else, the consistency with which I hit the ball is just better than with my conventional swing, and to me this is one way to improve. One can get better by hitting a lot of good shots, but one can also get better by not hitting as many bad shots. When it's good, it's very good, but when it's bad, it's still good. Sounds like S*X.

As I approach 60 years of age(2005) the SA swing has allowed me to remain competitive, not just at the senior level, but at the regular as well. Qualified for the 3 major amateur tournaments in my province(Quebec) and played in the Canadian Seniors Championship in Brantford in September. What is interesting to me is that even with the prodigous distances the young players are hitting the ball these days, being consistent and accurate enables me to score better at times than those who are long and occasionally crooked. The importance of a good short game is obviously essential for scoring, but keeping the ball in play doesn't hurt.

Ifr one is interested in the SA swing, I would not recommend Natural Golf, but either Todd Graves Golf, (www.swinglikemoe.com), or Tom Sanders from Big Grip Golf (www.big-grip.com). They both teach fundamentals that are even simpler than NG. Todd is by far the best.

[Jaydog]

welcome to the forum shadow and thanks for the reply.

would you recommend that beginners start with a SA swing compared to the traditional swing right from the beginning?

[Shadow]

welcome to the forum shadow and thanks for the reply.

would you recommend that beginners start with a SA swing compared to the traditional swing right from the beginning?

Absolutely.

Virtually all golfers who now use a single axis swing are converts. Learning an SA swing is a lot easier than the conventional swing, however, the problem we have is unlearning the differences between the two. If I could undo my 34 years of conventional swinging, I believe that my ball striking would be even better.

The obvious problem is that 99% of the golfing world is conventional so getting appropriate instruction is difficult. There are also a lot of naysayers out there who know a lot about SA, but have experienced none of it,(sarcasm intentional) and put the method down as being inferior, telling others that there is a huge loss of distance, for example, which is not true, and so on. Clubs may have to be modified slightly to accomodate the unique setup position and the fact that the right hand grips the club farther down the shaft. I am referring to altering the lie angles of the irons and perhaps having the shafts extended an inch or so. It is also better if the grips are non-tapered. Other than that it is not necessary to buy THEIR clubs, whomever, their, may be.

So yes, starting someone from scratch is better than conversion, but that person better be strong willed, as he/she will be bombarded with comments that may cause confusion. I recall a like comment from someone I played with in a tournament one time who said, " You had a beautiful swing before and were such a good player," (flattery is good for the ego, sometimes) why would you change?" My standard replies to this stuff are: 1. "To get better." 2. "Just watch the ball go and tell me I was wrong to change." Nuff said.

[Jaydog]

how long did it take you to get used to the change, shadow? were the results noticeable when you did get accustomed to the new swing?

[Shadow]

how long did it take you to get used to the change, shadow? were the results noticeable when you did get accustomed to the new swing?
1. 30 minutes
2. Yes.

After reading the December '95 Golf Digest on Moe Norman and Natural Golf, I bought the original video, "Golf Reform is at Hand," by Jack Keuykendall. Practiced the grip at home and when I went to a dome in which I practice during the winter, hitting diagonally, I noticed that the ball was starting off straight instead of with my usual draw. Continued to work on the fundamentals over the winter and then had a chance to hit some balls outside in mid March that year. Before hitting, I decided on a 5 ball, 7 iron test. If they went straight, I would continue with the SA swing, if not, I would revert back to my CG swing. All 5 were on a string and I contnue to swing with this technique, 9 years later.

Franky, I don't fully understand why it's better, but I just know that it is. With the palm grip and the straight line motion through the ball, I believe that the rotation of the forearms occurs later than in a conventional swing, therefore the odds of the club face being square at impact go up a little.

Secondly, if you look at a conventional golfer from the down the line view at address, there is an obtuse angle formed by the right arm and the club shaft, but at impact, the right arm and the shaft are straight. To achieve this position the upper body has to literally back/straighten up, whereas in the SA swing, the address position of the arms/clubshaft is the same as impact, therefore this moving of the upper body backwards does not have to take place. So timing is a lot easier.

IN a CG swing at impact, every part of your body is in a different plane, hips are "out of the way," shoulders are less so, but still turned away from the ball, making the coordination of the body a lot more difficult. In the SA swing, the goal is to have all of your body "facing the ball." This is just a lot easier to accomplish. Now, it takes a pretty flexible person to achieve this and is really not essential, but, if the shoulders face the ball at impact, with the hips a little open, this is fine. Having the right foot flat on the ground at impact is one of the keys to facing the ball at impact.

Every golfer has a certain amount of ability, genetic timing barrier, which is simply your brain's ability to coordinate your muscles. What the SA swing will accomlish, once the fundamentals are mastered, is to "lower" the scores from your previously achieved level, because the swing system has an "ideal mechanical advantage," a physics term for maximum output for minimum input. It's like getting your can engine tuned up. Once done, it runs more efficiently and your mileage goes up. If your previous best is a 20 handicap, SA may get you to a 16 or 17. A 10 could be a 7 and so on. It will not suddenly turn someone into a Tour professional. These guys are superior athletes. Most of us are mere mortals.

[Special_K]

These guys are superior athletes. Most of us are mere mortals.
In terms of physical conditioning, with training, all of us can be as good if not better than most PGA professionals. In terms of the talent factor, well, that's another story. :D

I'm really interested in seeing the theory behind the natural golf swing. Being a huge fan of Moe Norman's, I think he stumbled upon something critical. Anywhere I can go to get the gist of it without paying for the full instruction Shadow?

Thanks!

[Nocturnal]

I tried it out last summer, and found that while it did increase my consistency to a certain extent that I gave up distance. Due to the nature of the swing your backswing is somewhat chopped off and because of the grip you don't get as much wrist cock on the backswing and release through the ball.

Having said that I believe for someone just starting the game it is an easier swing to learn and be consistent with. There are less 'moving' parts to the swing (most of the power is generated with shoulder/arms and hardly any from hips/weightshift), and therefore less to go wrong.

[Shadow]

I tried it out last summer, and found that while it did increase my consistency to a certain extent that I gave up distance. Due to the nature of the swing your backswing is somewhat chopped off and because of the grip you don't get as much wrist cock on the backswing and release through the ball.

Having said that I believe for someone just starting the game it is an easier swing to learn and be consistent with. There are less 'moving' parts to the swing (most of the power is generated with shoulder/arms and hardly any from hips/weightshift), and therefore less to go wrong.
Interesting comments. A number of golfers have expressed to me that they tried it out and did experienced a little distance loss. But, what does "tried it out" really mean? If a small swing change takes several weeks to perfect, how long will it take to make some major swing changes, similar to what needs to be done when converting to an SA swing? It took me amost 4 months of 4 times weekly indoor practice to be comfortable and confident with the new action.

If one uses his same clubs to "try it out" and places his right hand palm grip farther down the shaft, then he is effectively playing with a shorter club. Typically, a 5 iron becomes the lenghth of a 7 iron so distance drops a little. My formula for club lengthening is to measure the difference between the position of the right wrist hinge with the conventional grip and then the palm grip, and make the clubs that much longer. When done the golfer is effectively playing with the same length clubs instead of shorter ones.

The less wrist cock I do not understand. With both hands separated on the club, versus overlapped, it is easier to cock the wrists, not harder. While the release may be different, it is no less powerful. There is less rolling over of the wrists/forearms through impact which is hard to time, but a straightening of the right arm through impact, with the full rotation occuring a little later. Accuray should go up, while the distance should remain the same.

Normally, SA golfers have a shorter arm swing, but the lead shoulder stilll turns to a point where it is opposite or just past the ball, similar to a conventional swing. This is what a full swing really is. Not where the clubshaft is, but where the lead shoulder is. A full swing is normally condsidered to be when the club shaft is parallel too the ground. This is not essential in any swing. Any arm swing past this point is wasted motion and may reduce both distance and accuracy.

The SA swing is easier to learn, but not easy. Any golf swing is difficult to learn and requires many months of hard work to learn the fundamentals, and the SA swing is no exception. However, if the goal is to be more accurate while maintaining distance, then an SA swing will accomplish this, all other things being equal. If this does not happen, then it's the golfer, not the swing system. Golfers these days are very distance conscious, but the game is still a game of putting the ball where you need to put it. Moe Norman's quote in my signatre below, still holds true.

[Nocturnal]

I found it quite easy to learn, took me about 3 weeks on the range, it's a baseball swing after all, right down to the grip, I was averaging mid-80s which is about what I shoot with a normal grip. I found I lost about 20-30 yards on a drive, less on iron shots, but being 1.5-2 clubs shorter off the tee does put pressure on your irons. Re the wrist cock, it just 'feels' like it's less to me and that my wrists didn't release as much through the forward swing, I've never seen a video of my swing so I don't know that for a fact. I do know that my shots were straighter on average. Strangely enough when I went back to my old grip and swing I was hitting it better than ever, go figure :)

[Kona Golf]

I switched 3 or so years ago! I dropped over 10 strokes! I'm still a hi handicap but alsways said I would be happy to be a bogey golfer and I am!:D

At first lost some distance, but always found the ball in play. Now when I do hit a bad ball, I hit it straight into the woods!:rofl:

I now hit the ball longer and straighter than ever. My iron shots now find the green and more often than not stop on the green. Short game and putting practice would easily give me another 5 strokes off!

There is an excellent instructor in the Toronta area if you are at all interested. His name is Peter Law. He works several sites around the GTA!

IMO-It is worth a lesson or two to learn from a pro!

BTW - After using all of the NG equipment, I now use "standard" equipment, but use a non tapered grip. The grip is the most important thing to change. I use the Mercury promax oversize with 4 wraps under the trail hand. This comes out to almost the same as the NG brand grips.

[Bogeybog]

I took some NG lessons from a local teacher (who is no longer associated with Natural Golf Corp) 5 years ago after years of frustration with CG. For the first time in my life I was able to hit consistent shots. I had to take a hiautus from golf for the last 3 years because of a rotator cuff injury (and subsequent reinjury), but I started to play again this year and the more I played the more the ball stirking came back, much straighter and longer than ever before (for me anyways). The major factor inhibiting my scoring, as with all golfers, is my short game but I also did find that my setup and mechanics have suffered during my layoff so I started to look around for some refresher lessons, but am very dismayed with what has happened with Natural Golf Corp..

I searched around this summer and found, as Shadow pointed out, two very credible teachers who teach the SA method in Tom Sanders and Todd Graves. I ordered the videos (VHS only at this time, the DVD should be out shortly) from Tom Sanders of Big-Grip Golf, in October and am very impressed with what I have seen. His teaching method is well thought out and he teaches you the SA swing using 6 drills (2 static to build your grip and set-up and 4 dynamic) which not only teaches you the swing, but it teaches you a method to keep teaching yourself. As with any other instruction, it will not work unless you actually do the dirlls faithfully (and in this case, exactly as Tom has outlined, because he has put together a step by step method of buiilding a repeatable swing in a sequence. It is not a system where you can pick and choose which drill you want to do, but do them exactly as outlined.) The other benefit of the drills is that once you have mastered the dynamic drills you have also mastered a consistent chipping stroke (should really benefit me). I have taken a short hiatus (to rest my shoulder) and will be doing the drills faithfully starting in January.

If anyone is interested I ended up with two sets of videos (the first one was addressed wrong and arrived after Tom shipped me another one). I will let it go at a very reasonable price if it can help someone (It's brand new, I will only take the sample grip out of the package). Just send me a pm.

[Kona Golf]

Little Moe Rules!

I too have several tapes / DVD !

[Bogeybog]

Little Moe Rules!

I too have several tapes / DVD !
Do you have Graves' Seven Principles? I am curious about Vol. 3 "Develop an Efficient Short Game' and Vol 4 which is a continuation of the Short Game (putting & pitching I believe) which has just also been released. If it's worth it, I was thinking of getting vol 3. next February/early March to kick start my season.