Doug Carrick Design

[Queen of the Beach]

I just read an article in a golf mag praising Doug Carrick. So I thought I'd ask you if his courses really are that much better in terms of design layout and playability? Ever played one? What is your favourite? Lets get some feedback.

[ilovegolf]

Well ones that I have played


Osprey Valley, Heathland, Hoot and Toot, Legends on the Niagara, Battlefield.

And ones I would kill to play

Copper Creek
Eagle's Nest
Bigwin Island
And a ton more, check out his website

http://www.carrickdesign.com/aboutus.htm

His nearest competition in today's world is Thomas McBroom, who in my opinion is not even qualified to operate a back hoe in the Carrick design team.

[Big Shooter]

Well ones that I have played


Osprey Valley, Heathland, Hoot and Toot, Legends on the Niagara, Battlefield.

And ones I would kill to play

Copper Creek
Eagle's Nest
Bigwin Island
And a ton more, check out his website

http://www.carrickdesign.com/aboutus.htm

His nearest competition in today's world is Thomas McBroom, who in my opinion is not even qualified to operate a back hoe in the Carrick design team.

Buddy, you gotta get off yer HATIN' for McBroom, you know I like his stuff, but you make me howl!! :rofl: :D :rofl:

[Big Shooter]

His nearest competition in today's world is Thomas McBroom, who in my opinion is not even qualified to operate a back hoe in the Carrick design team.Hey, here's Tom now.... :rofl:

[pudubny]

Great question,
Carrick is in many ways a throwback to the design ideals of the early great designers. Augusta has many of these ideals, although few designers understand them, they all talk about them.
It is strategic golf, or risk/reward. On most of his golf holes there are options as you stand on the tee. You will have the safe play where your second or third shot will be slightly tougher to the green but there is little risk of trouble off the tee. Or you can choose to take a risk and attempt to place the ball in a position making your second shot much easier. McBroom in many of his designs rarely fully utilizes this concept or it's application has little temptation for the average player. Lately some of his design work has shown more respect for strategic play (see Wildfire, which is very good.).
A solid example of Carrick's philosophy is #2 at Ballantrae. I use this because many forum members have played it and more should. It's a dogleg left, par 4, cannot see the green from the tee.
From the tee the fairway looks huge, and is. The golfer's first impression is that the hole looks pretty easy, just get it on the fairway and I have a chance at par.
The fairway turns left and on the inside corner are two very large bunkers. If you hit your tee shot straight to the fairway you are left with a 180+ second shot to the green. If you hit your tee shot over the bunkers, you may have only 120 left to the green, but that tee shot requires more skill, and guts. If you end up in the bunker, getting on the green in two is not an option. Risk/reward.
The wide fairways gives Carrick the opportunity to give all levels of play a chance at enjoying the game. People look at his courses and think they play easy, but that is simply not the case. Ballantrae does have wide fairways, which means you can bomb it off the tee but unless you position your ball well it is no advantage.
Secondly Carrick typically makes this green complexes more difficult and challenging than others. The angles to the green and bunkering mean you must use a variety of shots to score. Ballantrae is another excellent example of his ideals. There is always a preferred angle to attack the green from, and you must make a better tee shot to obtain that angle. McBroom has not always used this philosophy or at least the end result does not communicate that to the golfer very well.
Favourite Carrick courses include Bigwin and Angus Glen, Greystone. Osprey's Hoot course has so many risk/reward shots it deserves much more press than it gets. I have not played Eagle's Nest as yet but I hear it's his best example of this philosophy yet.
Wildfire is a very good McBroom work but not neccessarily representative of his earlier work. Lake Joe is pretty representative and while pretty is not very strategic.
If you truly want to understand the various schools of thought on course design Geoff Shackelford wrote a book called "Grounds for Golf" and it explains the various schools of golf design very well. Carrick courses make you think, and reward a well played stroke. McBroom's courses reward straight shots and require much less thought in my humble opinion.
I hope that helps. I am sure this may create some interesting debate.
Pud.

[DarkKnight]

Carrick, while maybe not up to the Tom Fazio level, is a fantastic designer. Battlefield and OV Heathlands are enough, in my mind, to cement him as a top-notch course creation guru. His courses are "sneaky hard", and the layouts are always both beutiful and functional.

[RobertThompson]

I know Doug very well and am very familiar with his courses, having played everything in Canada that he's worked on.

Doug's style is more akin to William Flynn than Stanley Thompson. Flynn is best known for his work on Shinnecock, which is a strategic, rather than penal golf course. Pud is right when he says Carrick uses strategy to allow all level of players to enjoy his courses. That said, Pud, your example of Ballantrae is funny, because Doug didn't do the course -- his lead associate Ian Andrew did. But many of the same principles exist in Ballantrae, though the greens are more extreme than much of Doug's work.

Doug likes to bunker the inside and outside angles on many of his courses. That means a strong player can challenge the bunker and have far less distance to the green, while the less aggressive player can simply play the ball away from the hazard, leaving a longer second shot.

One of the main differences between Tom and Doug these days is that Tom is varying the length of his courses. Doug usually builds to about 7,300 yards, while Tom isn't stuck on that figure. McBroom also incorporates more short par fours, while Doug is interested in length. It is hard to determine exactly which architect is stronger -- Doug's Eagles Nest is arguably the best thing to be built in Canada in 30 years, while Tom has also created some excellent courses recently at Oviinbyrd, Ridge at Manitou and Wildfire.

Needless to say, the two architects have certainly separated themselves in terms of style. It would be nice to see them both take greater risks and push their work further, but at the very least both are far superior to Graham Cooke.

[focal]

His nearest competition in today's world is Thomas McBroom, who in my opinion is not even qualified to operate a back hoe in the Carrick design team.

you don't like National Pines?

[golferboy]

I totally love National Pines......too bad it went clublink....;)

[pudubny]

you don't like National Pines?
My question would be, what makes NP so great from a design point of view? Why is it a great golf course?
Pud.

[ilovegolf]

you don't like National Pines?
National Pines is a nice track. I think all this design stuff really boils down to personal preference. There are people out there who love Oak Ridges and I have never been a fan of it. The first time we went down to Legends on the Niagara we played Battlefield ( loved it ) great 9 and 18 holes. Everyone we talked to at the course said play Usher's Creek it is way better. We played it early this year and I found it to be very uneventful and boring. Carrick gives you tons of room off the tee, which most amateurs like, but every approach shot is deceptive. Grat example number 3 at Battlefield. The hole plays 245 from the back. Bunkering 30 yards short of the green makes the hole look a lot shorter. So for the avergae player trusting your yardage is tough and Carricks forces you to do that. McBroom on the other hand is simply a dirt mover, he has no regards for where the land goes, because he can move it where he wants it ti be. McBroom likes to think that players like to have choices of the tee. So he tries to entice you to club select off the tee. At Usher's Creek I only hit the driver 6 times. Battlefield 11 times. So the moral of the story is EVERYONE WANTS TO HIT IT DEEP AND NOTBE PENALIZED and Carrick lets you do this. After all " CHICKS DIG THE LONG BALL"

[Big Shooter]

At Usher's Creek I only hit the driver 6 times. Battlefield 11 times. So the moral of the story is EVERYONE WANTS TO HIT IT DEEP AND NOTBE PENALIZED...After all "CHICKS DIG THE LONG BALL"
Wow, you can remember how many times you used the Big Stick at each course?
You must be The Real Big Shooter!!!? :D

[Big Shooter]

His nearest competition in today's world is Thomas McBroom, who in my opinion is not even qualified to operate a back hoe in the Carrick design team...."but I really like Morgan's Creek" in BC....hmmmmm!? :confused:

[ilovegolf]

We will let you know what Morgan's Creek is like in two weeks, RIGHT BIG SHOOTER.

[garygolf]

National Pines is a nice track. I think all this design stuff really boils down to personal preference. There are people out there who love Oak Ridges and I have never been a fan of it. The first time we went down to Legends on the Niagara we played Battlefield ( loved it ) great 9 and 18 holes. Everyone we talked to at the course said play Usher's Creek it is way better. We played it early this year and I found it to be very uneventful and boring. Carrick gives you tons of room off the tee, which most amateurs like, but every approach shot is deceptive. Grat example number 3 at Battlefield. The hole plays 245 from the back. Bunkering 30 yards short of the green makes the hole look a lot shorter. So for the avergae player trusting your yardage is tough and Carricks forces you to do that. McBroom on the other hand is simply a dirt mover, he has no regards for where the land goes, because he can move it where he wants it ti be. McBroom likes to think that players like to have choices of the tee. So he tries to entice you to club select off the tee. At Usher's Creek I only hit the driver 6 times. Battlefield 11 times. So the moral of the story is EVERYONE WANTS TO HIT IT DEEP AND NOTBE PENALIZED and Carrick lets you do this. After all " CHICKS DIG THE LONG BALL"
Hi , first post, hope it works! What is it that you don't like about Oakridges. There is something about the course that I dont like about it, but I can't put my finger on it.
Is it the homes?? Not quite sure.
I play there a lot, but i dont know, with the location , landscape, trees, it should be better, thnx!