Need your opinion

[Focker Singh]

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know.

[el tigre]

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know. On the teeing ground it is definately legal. On the putting green it is definately not legal. Everywhere else I'm not so sure about, but I believe the ruling would be not legal:

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Stance) or swing,
• his line of play (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#LineOfPlay) or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Hole), or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Obstructions) and objects defining out of bounds (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#OutOfBounds)),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in fairly taking his stance (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Stance),
• in making a stroke (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Stroke) or the backward movement of his club for a stroke (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Stroke) and the stroke (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#Stroke) is made,
• on the teeing ground (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#TeeingGround) in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface (Rule 11-1 (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules/rule11.html#11-1)), or
• on the putting green (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/definitions.html#PuttingGreen) in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage .(Rule 16-1 (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules/rule16.html#16-1)).

The club may be grounded only lightly and must not be pressed on the ground.

It is not the use of the indentation as an alignment aid that is the potential problem, but whether or not pressing his club into the ground in front of his ball improves his line of play contrary to 13-2. Considering the last sentence in the Rule, I think you have to conclude that it does.

[akrus]

Our company has a sales guy that does the same thing, but immediately behind the ball - he'll flatten the grass or make an indent so his ball almost looks teed up. I actually never really noticed it happening, another player in our group told me afterwards. I'll be sure to speak with him the next time I see it...

Albert

[aaagc]

Our company has a sales guy that does the same thing, but immediately behind the ball - he'll flatten the grass or make an indent so his ball almost looks teed up. I actually never really noticed it happening, another player in our group told me afterwards. I'll be sure to speak with him the next time I see it...

AlbertThat is definitely 'improving his lie' :nono:

[Bellyhungry]

I played a few rounds with someone I know, and he does it as part of his pre-shot routine. I don't know if that is breaching the rules of golf or not, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

From physics stand point, it does not provide any real alignment help for him. He is better off aligning the club face square to a target in the distance.

BTW, I try to play as little as possible with this person unless I have no other options.

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know.

[el tigre]

I played a few rounds with someone I know, and he does it as part of his pre-shot routine. I don't know if that is breaching the rules of golf or not, but it annoyed the hell out of me.
There are a few players on the PGA Tour that place their putter on the ground in front of their ball during their pre-shot routine. They are not breaking the rules because you are allowed to ground your club lightly.

It is "pressing down on the ground" and/or "eliminating irregularities of surface" that is the problem. In the original question the player was making an "indentation", so I think it is safe to assume that he was pressing down.

[TourIQ]

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know.
Does he ground his club in the sand bunker too? 2-stroke penalty.

Thanks Harry S
www.TourIQ.com (http://www.TourIQ.com)

[el tigre]

Does he ground his club in the sand bunker too? 2-stroke penalty.

Thanks Harry S
www.TourIQ.com (http://www.touriq.com/) To be more accurate, grounding your club in ANY hazard incurs a 2-stroke penalty.

[rockwalls]

interesting post there Tigre. if i were playing with that person in a friendly game, i probably wouldn't mind so much (for alignment purposes) but the other one, where he flattens the ground behind his ball is a no-no. in the former, i wouldn't know the ruling on that one.

[framer]

what i used to do was stand behind the ball, place my club on the ground about 2' behind the ball in line with my target, and hold the club there, take my stance with my right foot being the same distance away from the ball as my left foot is away from my club head. that gave me perfect alignment. ( i'm a lefty)

weather it is legal or not, i have no idea.

[el tigre]

what i used to do was stand behind the ball, place my club on the ground about 2' behind the ball in line with my target, and hold the club there, take my stance with my right foot being the same distance away from the ball as my left foot is away from my club head. that gave me perfect alignment. ( i'm a lefty)

weather it is legal or not, i have no idea. You are allowed to ground your club when you are not in a hazard.

As long as you don't press your club down into the ground, you should be fine.

[el tigre]

it makes sense. u cannot make a mark to help u align. aligning is not easy to do. You can make an alignment mark on your ball. However, you can only lift your ball to align it where the rules permit (i.e., on the teeing ground or putting green, if LCP local rule is in effect, if someone asks you to mark your ball off the putting green, etc).

Outside of the putting green, you can make a mark along your line of play as long as you remove it before playing your stroke under Rule 8-2. If you place a tee in the ground in front of your ball, align your feet and then bend over and pick up the tee, you are not breaking any rules.

[noback]

illegal, bud.What is illegal? Grounding your club? :confused: As long as not in a hazard you are allowed.:cool:

[framer]

its not illegal to ground your club, but it may not be legal to use it for alignment purposes.

i'm not sure though

[el tigre]

yes, i think u are right. maybe it is legal???:confused: :confused:

rule 8-2 applies here not 13.

there is also a decision which allows you place a club down to help you align.

8-2a/1 Club Placed on Ground to Align Feet http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/decisions/images/decision-line.gif
Q. A player places a club on the ground parallel to the line of play to assist him in aligning his feet properly. Is this permissible?
A. Yes, provided the player removes the club before playing his stroke. Otherwise, a breach of Rule 8-2a (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules/rule08.html#8-2) would occur.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: You got it right now.

Rule 8 covers most alignment issues. Rule 13 is about improving your lie, etc. which is relevant if you start pressing down the grass along your line of play. To get back to Focker Singh's original scenario, the player would most likely be penalized for breaching Rule 8-2 rather than Rule 13-2.

[el tigre]

el tigre

back to the orignal scenario, is it legal or not? is it legal to place a mark on the ground with your club? would it make a difference if it was placed behind or in front of the ball?

because this guy in our group who is super competitive and a real stickler to the rules, he will not let use make any mark on the ground for alignment. i really would like to know the official ruling. I am not a rules official. The OttawaGolf forum has a rules official on it if you really, really need an official ruling. He is the Master - I am just a good student.:D

However, I do know the rules pretty well and I can tell you that when you read the rulebook every word in the rule is important. The Rules of Golf are very specific and mean exactly what they say - no more and no less.

It is clear to me that in the original scenario the player has breached Rule 8-2a for placing a mark to indicate his line of play and not removing it prior to playing his stroke. The Rule does not specify WHERE the mark cannot be placed - if its purpose was to indicate the line of play (wherever it is), then it must be removed prior to playing the stroke.

If you press your club down on the ground such that it improves your lie, your line of play or the area of your intended swing (i.e., flattening the grass, bending branches), then you would be in breach of Rule 13-2.

However, you ARE allowed to remove leaves, twigs and stones as long as they are not fixed or growing to anything, under Rule 23 regarding Loose Impediments. You are not required to remove loose impediments, and if you choose to do so then you are not required to remove ALL of them. If you wish to remove all but one loose twig that just happens to be useful for your alignment, then I don't believe you have breached the rules. You did not place the twig there, nor was it put there with your knowledge in order to indicate the line of play.

Similarly, on the teeing ground you have a large area where you can legally place your ball to tee off. If you happen to choose a spot behind a nice divot that indicates your line of play and/or is useful for alignment, you have not breached the rules either. You did not make that alignment mark.

[noback]

. He is the Master - I am just a good student.:D .Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh Grasshopper, Gary will be very happy:D

[Queen of the Beach]

I am not a rules official. The OttawaGolf forum has a rules official on it if you really, really need an official ruling. He is the Master - I am just a good student.:D

However, I do know the rules pretty well and I can tell you that when you read the rulebook every word in the rule is important. The Rules of Golf are very specific and mean exactly what they say - no more and no less.

It is clear to me that in the original scenario the player has breached Rule 8-2a for placing a mark to indicate his line of play and not removing it prior to playing his stroke. The Rule does not specify WHERE the mark cannot be placed - if its purpose was to indicate the line of play (wherever it is), then it must be removed prior to playing the stroke.

If you press your club down on the ground such that it improves your lie, your line of play or the area of your intended swing (i.e., flattening the grass, bending branches), then you would be in breach of Rule 13-2.

However, you ARE allowed to remove leaves, twigs and stones as long as they are not fixed or growing to anything, under Rule 23 regarding Loose Impediments. You are not required to remove loose impediments, and if you choose to do so then you are not required to remove ALL of them. If you wish to remove all but one loose twig that just happens to be useful for your alignment, then I don't believe you have breached the rules. You did not place the twig there, nor was it put there with your knowledge in order to indicate the line of play.

Similarly, on the teeing ground you have a large area where you can legally place your ball to tee off. If you happen to choose a spot behind a nice divot that indicates your line of play and/or is useful for alignment, you have not breached the rules either. You did not make that alignment mark.
Just curious as to how many strokes penalty is incurred for each breach of the rules above?
For the record, I normally just pick a point in the ground 10 feet in front of me (whether it is a divot or funny blade of grass or pinecone) and align that way. But your comment about the tee in the ground has made me curious. If I use a tee to make a mark in front of my ball to align my swing and remove the tee before I swing.... is there a penalty?

[LuckyLuke]

In THE RULES OF GOLF rule16-1. putting green a.Touching the line of put
(i) it said the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;
(ii)the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it,provided he does not press anything down;
d. testing surface during the play of a hole, a player must not test the surface of the petting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

hope it help's
:cool:

[BdaGolfer]

You can make an alignment mark on your ball. However, you can only lift your ball to align it where the rules permit (i.e., on the teeing ground or putting green, if LCP local rule is in effect, if someone asks you to mark your ball off the putting green, etc).

Tigre,

With regard to your comment above about marking your ball off the green as you had been requested to move it, would you be allowed to place it back so you could use your alignment mark, assuming it wasn't pointing the right way to begin with? Would that be considered placing the ball back exactly where it was? Curious...

Alan

[el tigre]

Tigre,

With regard to your comment above about marking your ball off the green as you had been requested to move it, would you be allowed to place it back so you could use your alignment mark, assuming it wasn't pointing the right way to begin with? Would that be considered placing the ball back exactly where it was? Curious...

Alan Yes you can. You are only required to replace the ball on the same spot - you do not have to recreate the same orientation of the ball markings so you use any orientation you want.

However, don't forget that you cannot CLEAN your ball unless you are on the putting green or an LCP local rule is in effect.

[Grobar]

As far as I know, it is illegal to make your mark then play a shot without first removing the mark!

What I do to align myself on a longer shots is to look for some irregularity in the grass (divot , darker or lighter patch, etc) which is close but ahead of the ball, and in a direct line. Perfectly legal and you are not altering anything!!

[AnnikaFan]

just wondering......if the guy does it like 6 inches in front of the ball....so he's not really improving the lie....why would the act itself bother you guys?!

[sharkhark]

I know the question was about putting. I definitely know you cannot make a mark on green for alignment purposes.

I read tigres comments that it is allowed in the teeing area. In a lesson the pro suggested I utilize previous divots, pine cones etc to lign up behind for tee shots.
Not add them or move them, just place ball behind something already there. When I said "Why don't i just put something in front like a pine cone, tee etc" He said it was breaking the rules.
Could only use what was naturally there, and not allowed to manipulate or move things around.

Not sure if he's right, but if so, contraditcts tigres comment that you can do so.
Anyone know for sure?

[aaagc]

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know.

Rule 8-2a forbids it anywhere

[el tigre]

I know the question was about putting. I definitely know you cannot make a mark on green for alignment purposes.

I read tigres comments that it is allowed in the teeing area. In a lesson the pro suggested I utilize previous divots, pine cones etc to lign up behind for tee shots.
Not add them or move them, just place ball behind something already there. When I said "Why don't i just put something in front like a pine cone, tee etc" He said it was breaking the rules.
Could only use what was naturally there, and not allowed to manipulate or move things around.

Not sure if he's right, but if so, contraditcts tigres comment that you can do so.
Anyone know for sure? I think you need to read my comments more carefully. Your golf pro is correct - and we do not contradict each other.

You CANNOT move loose impediments for alignment purposes on the teeing ground - or anywhere else on the course. What you CAN do on the teeing ground (but nowhere else) is place your tee ANYWHERE you like between the tee markers and within 2 club lengths behind them.

If the spot you choose to place your tee just happens to be in line was something that helps you with your alignment, you're not breaking any rules. So my advice is: don't plunk your tee into the ground just anywhere - choose your spot carefully.

[thecoach]

I was playing with a stranger 2 weeks ago and I noticed on every shot except for his putts he would use his club and make an indentation about 6 inches infront of his ball for alignment purposes. Is this legal? I sure as hell know its definately poor etiquette. I suppose its legal since its like using a leaf or any other natural object as an alignment source. Just want to know.

As per the discussion, it appears to be illegal ... but the golf rules also have an unwritten element where what's in the "interest of fair play" is important. IMHO doing anything "through the green" that aids you in your shot is illegal.

Besides, if you can't focus on something that is already there (the ground is full of irregularities) then you have other issues with your game ...

[aaagc]

.. the golf rules also have an unwritten element where what's in the "interest of fair play" is important. IMHO doing anything "through the green" that aids you in your shot is illegal.



I understand your view but if you really mean 'illegal': if the rules don't say you can't do it, then you can. If the rules say you must do it, you do. If the rules say you must not do it, you don't. Then everyone knows where they stand.