Blind Shots Off the Tee

[Flogger]

I simply fail to comprehend why golf course architects build courses with blind shots of the tee. Or for that matter, set up holes where a perfect tee shot results in a blind approach shot.!!!

I can't stand walking up to a tee only to discover that I'm faced with a blind tee shot. I have no idea what the hell am I aiming at unless I've played there many, many times before.

For me, golf is a target sport. If I can see the landing area, then I can pick the right club and location. Otherwise, it's a crap shoot. You really have no idea where the trouble is, how the fairway slopes, etc, etc.

I believe blind shots are fair game if you've hit a wayward shot, but from off the tee or after placing a perfect shot in the fairway as intended by the architects...:confused: :confused:

I just don't get it.

What do folks think?

[el tigre]

As long as the landing area is big enough, I don't have a problem with blind tee shots per se. I wouldn't want to play 18 holes of them though, and I don't like it when there are unmarked "surprises" like ponds, sudden doglegs, etc. in the landing area that you can't see off the tee.

Blind approach shots are another matter. There is a course on the Quebec side with a hole that is a blind par 3. How are you supposed to aim at the pin when you can't even see the green? One of the dumbest things I've ever seen on a golf course.

[tjhayko]

Maybe you just hit the ball too far Flogger, you gorilla ;)

[Grass Roots Tour]

Totally agree Flogger.


Great courses don't have a blind shot anywhere.

[tjhayko]

Totally agree Flogger.


Great courses don't have a blind shot anywhere.

GRT, I've found some amazing ways to create blind shots that I'm sure were never intended, and I definitely was somewhere when I had to hit them. Maybe not where the designer intended ;)

[Greywolf]

I am not fond of the blind shots simply because you cannot see where the ball lands, it is easy to lose balls that way because you have no clue if the ball bounced somewhere. I also believe these type of holes contribute to slow play, I can live with one per 18 but that is enough.

[iyell4]

I HATE BLIND SHOTS!:mad:

In fact, I'm thinkin' of starting a thread called ...
"Golf Holes that have a Periscope and/or a Ranger-Rick Lookout Perch, Hole No. & Course"
so that we can be forewarned specifically of these glorious opportunities for your beautiful shots to magically show up on your scorecard as lost balls.

(compounded when peeps on the adjacent fairway walk off with your ball before you come over the crest to even see them!)

[duffer den]

I remember seeing a segment with Les Furber, golf course architect primarily in the western provinces, of how he always designed par 3 holes in such a way that a hole-in-one would be clearly seen by the golfers on the tee. I am sure there are numerous examples of holes where that would not be the case and it certainly would be frustrating if that were to ever happen - a highlight of your life that you wouldn't be able to see from the tee.:dunno:

Also, there are great courses over the pond that have blind tee shots - think St. Andrews and Royal Troon from last year. I do agree, though, that it isn't a great experience when faced with them.

[TeetoGrnr]

There's a par 4 at Don Valley - I thnk it's the 14th hole that has a blind approach shot. You aim at a bulls eye up in the trees. Absolute worst hole IMO.

Landing area is small as well. If you land it too far left, you can't even see the bulls eye.

[tjhayko]

One thing I do hate is holes with a blind area that you can easily reach, but no bell or other way of telling the guys on the tee that it is safe to hit. I always wonder if courses with holes like this end up paying more on their insurance because they won't put up a simple bell.

[iyell4]

There's a par 4 at Don Valley - I thnk it's the 14th hole that has a blind approach shot. You aim at a bulls eye up in the trees. Absolute worst hole IMO.

Landing area is small as well. If you land it too far left, you can't even see the bulls eye.
i know the one your talking about ... slight dogleg to the right and the 'bulleye' is red and white and mounted in a tree about 40 ft off the ground at the at the corner of the bend ... dumb. ... so if i drive at the bulleye i launch it 40 yards OB into the pines? ... great!:rolleyes:

[pudubny]

Totally agree Flogger.


Great courses don't have a blind shot anywhere.Okay guys, great golf does not have to be predictable all the time. A architect wants to make the course interesting over the long haul, not just to people who only play it once. Part of the fun and adventure is not knowing everything on the golf course. Our obsession with lower handicaps and fear of failure makes our teeth grind when we come upon a blind shot for the first time but if you play the course the next day, it becomes part of the adventure. I think too many blind shots on a single course can create a host of problems, but a couple per round are fun.
As for great golf courses not having blind shots? A very short list of exceptional courses with blind shots would be Augusta (11th tee shot, 18th approach are only two examples), Pebble Beach(Tiger's famous 5 iron), National Golf Links of America, Oakland Hills (7th, I believe and par 3 17th is semi blind, depending on pin position). How about St. Andrews? Ballybunion? This is a very short list of great courses with blind tee shots or approach shots.
Locals with potential blind shots would be Scarboro, Bigwin, Islington and Grandview (okay 6 is overdoing it a bit) and Rocky Crest. Those are some pretty good courses as well.
It's part of the adventure!
Cheers!
Pud.

[iyell4]

How about St. Andrews?Cheers!
Pud.
cool. fade it over the letter "O" in the "HOTEL" billboard and you'll be in good shape!:)

[focal]

agree with pudubny, it's all part of the game...I alway look at the maps when I'm playing a new course ....and if it's a course I'm familiar with, then you KNOW where to go...the fun is EXECUTING the shot...

[Flogger]

Okay guys, great golf does not have to be predictable all the time. A architect wants to make the course interesting over the long haul, not just to people who only play it once. Part of the fun and adventure is not knowing everything on the golf course. Our obsession with lower handicaps and fear of failure makes our teeth grind when we come upon a blind shot for the first time but if you play the course the next day, it becomes part of the adventure. I think too many blind shots on a single course can create a host of problems, but a couple per round are fun.
Pud.Nothing predictable happens when I go out and play :rofl: . And it's always fun and aventurous without blind tee shots.

I just don't like them. I prefer to have a reasonable view of my options when teeing off. I can also gauge how well I hit the shot if I can see my target.

It is a target sport isn't it?

With blind tee shots, I don't have the luxury of walking down the fairway, looking at the landing area, picking a spot and then lining it up with something I can see from the tee.

So to me, it's simply a matter of luck picking the correct option. Now if you play the course many times and know what to aim at from the tee, then what's the point of having a blind shot in the first place? Seems to me that blind tee shots have way more impact to the golfers that haven't played the course very often. Once you're familiar with the hole, it's much easier, isn't it?

Just seems to slow play down more then anything. So why bother :dunno:

[Golfbum]

I don't mind a blind shot off the tee on a par 4 or 5. However I have played a course that had a blind shot on a PAR 3!
Good thing I was playing with a guy who knew the hole. Can't recall the length of the hole, maybe around 140-150 yds. However there was a small hill in front of the green. A monster maple tree sat on that hill, on the left side of the green, which you could not see at all. The flagstick is not even in view! So the guy tells me "Just hit it right of the tree and you should be on the green"
Worst designed hole I ever played! I won't mention the course but let's just say it is located in Grand Bend Ontario!

[pudubny]

I just don't like them. I prefer to have a reasonable view of my options when teeing off. I can also gauge how well I hit the shot if I can see my target.

But the designer uses them like a hazard to play with your mind, and it's working. Seriously, they use blind shots like they use that tree sticking out over the green that always seems to collect your ball. It gets in your head!

It is a target sport isn't it?
I think you refer to fact that you select a target to aim at rather than a "target" style golf course for example, St Andrews Valley. Yes you take aim, but sometimes their is nothing to aim at!

With blind tee shots, I don't have the luxury of walking down the fairway, looking at the landing area, picking a spot and then lining it up with something I can see from the tee.

Your right. But sometimes the designer has given you a preview of the hole and you were not paying attention. Like the drive on the 16th at Lakeview, you can see it from the 13th tee. Or the 12th, which you can see from the second green. Brilliant.

So to me, it's simply a matter of luck picking the correct option. Now if you play the course many times and know what to aim at from the tee, then what's the point of having a blind shot in the first place? Seems to me that blind tee shots have way more impact to the golfers that haven't played the course very often. Once you're familiar with the hole, it's much easier, isn't it?

They potentially have more impact on first time golfers. Once your familiar with the hole it is easier, but still not EASY. Blind shots seem to really get into peoples heads, time after time. And that is why many designers use them. It just another type of hazard you must mentally get your head around.
And the the good designers are building something people will find interesting hundreds of times, not just once.

Just seems to slow play down more then anything. So why bother :dunno:

True, it can slow first timers down but their are ways to reduce this with bells and video monitors like Scarboro.
Why bother, because it's a challenge! Any honest attempt to make the course more interesting is appreciated. Consider Pine Valley, widely considered the greatest course in the world, has as many as seven blind shots.
Perhaps you just need a different perspective. What particular blind shot hole got this thread going if we may ask?
Pud.

[tjhayko]

Perhaps you just need a different perspective. What particular blind shot hole got this thread going if we may ask?
Pud.

Pud,

He just hates them anywhere they occur. I do agree that they slow play down, and you can't really play them well until you know the course.

As for having a view when playing a different hole, I think that is a pretty strange way of looking at it. To me, anyways, golf is test of your ability to focus on right now. No matter how good or bad your last shot (or hole) was, make the best shot from where you are right now, and you will play well. The game is hard enough without a designer resorting to tricks to penalize you for not having played the course ten times before. I much prefer a hole that looks easy, but is difficult because of the subtle way the green runs away from the side you want to be on, or the fact that what looks like the easiest shot off the tee results in a bad angle into the green, or the first few holes letting you be extra aggressive, and then having the greens get smaller. All of these make a course just as tough as a blind tee shot, and I think they will stand up to the test of the course being played 10 or 15 times far better that a blind tee.

Of course, however, when I hit the shot perfectly on one of those blind holes, I'll sing a different tune ;).

[pudubny]

TJ,
To refer to blind shots as "tricks" is unfair. In the history of course evolution and design from St. Andrews to Whistling Straits, blind shots have been used by the very best of designers. Mackenzie, Ross, Dye, Macdonald, Tillinghast and any other genius architect you can name used them as part of the strategy of the course and most of the best courses in the world have them. Shinnicock has several blind shots as does Bethpage and Whistling Straits to name a few major venues.
Some designers also have a sense of humour, (Tilly) something many golfers these days seem to lack. We are so obsessed with score.
My "strange" view of previewing the hole is not that strange. Several of the great designers intentionally gave the golfer a preview of the blind shots to come. It's not an accident. National Golf Links I believe is a classic example.
I like several of your ideas about what makes a course interesting, but I would add the blind shot to the list of ideas that can add to the challenge of the task. Why restrict the designer on ways to get inside the golfers head.
Perhaps we need more of a sense of humour when approaching this game.

Just imagine Mr. Flogger and GRT walking off Augusta, Pine Valley, Shinnicock or Oakland Hills saying Mackenzie, Crump, Flynn and Ross should not have designed holes with blind shots and the members should have somebody re-design the holes. That conversation I would like to witness. :rofl:

Enjoy.
Pud.

[tjhayko]

TJ,
To refer to blind shots as "tricks" is unfair. In the history of course evolution and design from St. Andrews to Whistling Straits, blind shots have been used by the very best of designers. Mackenzie, Ross, Dye, Macdonald, Tillinghast and any other genius architect you can name used them as part of the strategy of the course and most of the best courses in the world have them. Shinnicock has several blind shots as does Bethpage and Whistling Straits to name a few major venues.
Some designers also have a sense of humour, (Tilly) something many golfers these days seem to lack. We are so obsessed with score.
My "strange" view of previewing the hole is not that strange. Several of the great designers intentionally gave the golfer a preview of the blind shots to come. It's not an accident. National Golf Links I believe is a classic example.
I like several of your ideas about what makes a course interesting, but I would add the blind shot to the list of ideas that can add to the challenge of the task. Why restrict the designer on ways to get inside the golfers head.
Perhaps we need more of a sense of humour when approaching this game.

Just imagine Mr. Flogger and GRT walking off Augusta, Pine Valley, Shinnicock or Oakland Hills saying Mackenzie, Crump, Flynn and Ross should not have designed holes with blind shots and the members should have somebody re-design the holes. That conversation I would like to witness. :rofl:

Enjoy.
Pud.


Pud,

I suppose everybody's got their own opinions on what they like, or don't like to see on the course. I've got no probs with that, and I'm sure some of it is caused by the ones that really seem to mess you up the most. Different head games work for different people.

[pudubny]

A couple of articles that express my opinions better than I can.

http://www.golfdom.com/golfdom/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=148947

http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfarchitecture/articles.php?g_id=5

And a thorough description of the NGLA course, which inspires so many architects today.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/ngla2.html

Good luck.
Pud.

[Thimble]

i'm perfectly fine with the fact that people who know a course has an advantage over everybody else.

a blind shot is only bad if it is necessary to make a blind shot in order to make a normal par (2 shots to green on par 4, 3 for par 5 and 1 for a par 3). otherwise, what makes a blind shot exciting is that it's a risk/reward decision. do i cut the corner to try for the green on a par 4? do i bomb it over the trees for a short approach, or do i play safe and hit a mid iron off the fairway?

[Flogger]

Perhaps we need more of a sense of humour when approaching this game.

Well, for the record, the group I play with.... we have loads of fun :D . I just don't like blind tee shots that's all. Once I've played the course enough times to know where to aim off the tee, I actually find them anticlimactic more than anything. If I nail the tee shot exactly where I aim, I don't get to see it finish. No satisifaction in that for me.


Just imagine Mr. Flogger and GRT walking off Augusta, Pine Valley, Shinnicock or Oakland Hills saying Mackenzie, Crump, Flynn and Ross should not have designed holes with blind shots and the members should have somebody re-design the holes. That conversation I would like to witness. :rofl:

Enjoy.
Pud.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Mr. Flogger and GRT playing Augusta, etc... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, I can tell you if I played those courses, I'd have a caddy or member telling me exactly what to aim at on each blind tee shot. Just like the pro's and members of those courses I'd bet.

And after the round, I'd tell those architects to get a bull dozer out there and plow those obstructions down. To hell with tradition. It all about me and my score :rofl: .