CGTF vs. CPGA

[Mok]

Canadian Golf Teachers Federation vs. Canadian Professional Golf Association

so how does one qualify for either?
which one has been around longer?
what does the certifcation allow you to do besides teach golf?

so can anyone give us a comparison? maybe this can be question of the week...

[Special_K]

Canadian Golf Teachers Federation vs. Canadian Professional Golf Association

so how does one qualify for either?
which one has been around longer?
what does the certifcation allow you to do besides teach golf?

so can anyone give us a comparison? maybe this can be question of the week...
Mok,

It's exactly as I posted in the previous thread:

CPGA is the "official" Canadian professional golf association. It is the true certification and recognized at most reputable places. You won't walk into a good practice facility or half decent course and find a CGTF teacher there, for example. You need to pass your PT's (Playing Test) to become a CPGA instructor. It requires you to shoot a combined score of 156 over two rounds.

CGTF is the "unofficial" Canadian (I won't even call it professional) golf association. Because the field is not regulated, basically anybody can start up their own association and start teaching golf if they wanted to. You usually find CGTF instructors at small driving ranges. And yes, they usually charge a lot less than CPGA instructors. This is what I mean by undercutting CPGA business. CGTF has their own version of PTs which require their candidates to shoot a score of 83-85 or something like that. CGTF could have excellent instructors, I don't doubt that. But I would question why someone would choose NOT to obtain their CPGA because of the obvious benefit: recognition amoung the pro golf community around the world and play golf free for the time you have your card! A CPGA professional is the same as a PGA professional in the states (teaching professional). There is worldwide qualification and recognition. CGTF? sorry... but you have to pay for your golf just like everybody else because you're unrecognized.

We could start a TGNTF (Toronto Golf Nuts Teachers Federation) and even though some of us *might* be better teachers than some CPGA instructors, does that make us qualified? Or recognized?

Golf is one of those sports where everybody is a teacher at some point (i.e., teaching a friend, etc.) If you are going to pay money for lessons, however, I believe in paying the certified professional.

Hope this helps. I ain't knocking CGTF instructors personally, I'm just commenting generally on my opinions on the field.

Kevin

[Ego Woods]

Wow, definitely didn't know that....thx for the info!

[Mok]

hey kev, thanks for the info, definitely very informative...if anyone else has anything to say about these two associations, please feel free to post it! i am very interested in this, in fact i am going to look up a lil more info and let everyone else know what i find.

[Q-School]

A CPGA member/instructor is certified and qualified to do more than just teach golf. They are trained to run a golf business. Teaching is just a part of the certification. This is why there are 3-year certification programs available at colleges.

In reply to Special K comment - "But I would question why someone would choose NOT to obtain their CPGA because of the obvious benefit: recognition amoung the pro golf community around the world and play golf free for the time you have your card! A CPGA professional is the same as a PGA professional in the states (teaching professional). There is worldwide qualification and recognition."

I do not believe that not too many of us can afford to re-invest 3 years at a college and/or have the financial resources to do so. If you are in this category and wish to become a certified instructor to learn how to teach the basic fundamental golf skills to the beginners of the game, than CGTF might be a more feasible solution.

As for my opinion on the topic of which organization provides more qualified instructors. This is a never ending debate! It all depends on who you ask a CPGA or a CGTF instructor : )

Every instructor has their own teaching method, this is a direct result of their teaching experience and learning over many years in the profession. I would definitely recommend that you ask your friends or colleagues that have taken golf instruction for their opinions.

[Mok]

is it true there is a difference CPGA club makers and CPGA instructors?

[Benny]

Hi The difference from CPGA and CGTF is the CPGA is a 3 year course or 1 year for a mature student that already has credits and the CGTF is a 1 week course for anyone. There is people that put down the CGTF because they think that they are out there to under cut the CPGA on golf lessons. The CGTF are told not to undercut other peoples rates cause that is unprofessional. Whether they do or not that is up to the individual. The CPGA is not just FREE golf I know some golf courses that charge the CPGA to play their courses. This is not a LIE I guarantee it. I can go on for hours and keep writing about the differences. If you want to find out more about these 2 professions look up www.cgtf.com or www.usgtf.com or www.cpga.com or www.ontariopga.com and you can see that the CGTF is not some Mickey Mouse teaching federation. Whoever has negative things about either is up to the individual. Sure there is some people that should not be affiliated in either but that is part of life.

[Special_K]

Hi The difference from CPGA and CGTF is the CPGA is a 3 year course or 1 year for a mature student that already has credits and the CGTF is a 1 week course for anyone. There is people that put down the CGTF because they think that they are out there to under cut the CPGA on golf lessons. The CGTF are told not to undercut other peoples rates cause that is unprofessional. Whether they do or not that is up to the individual. The CPGA is not just FREE golf I know some golf courses that charge the CPGA to play their courses. This is not a LIE I guarantee it. I can go on for hours and keep writing about the differences. If you want to find out more about these 2 professions look up www.cgtf.com (http://www.cgtf.com/) or www.usgtf.com (http://www.usgtf.com/) or www.cpga.com (http://www.cpga.com/) or www.ontariopga.com (http://www.ontariopga.com/) and you can see that the CGTF is not some Mickey Mouse teaching federation. Whoever has negative things about either is up to the individual. Sure there is some people that should not be affiliated in either but that is part of life.
Well if they're told not to undercut CPGA pros, why is it that almost every single one of them charges less than what CPGA pros charge? Well I believe the answer to that is that CGTFs, usually operating out of small driving ranges, etc. do not have the clientelle to charge $90 an hour. They are thus, forced to undercut CPGA pricing. Tell me Benny since you wish to defend them so vigilantly. When was the last time you found a CGTF instructor at a half decent golf course or practice facility?

It is also true that CPGA's have to pay to play some courses. However, there is that comraderie and international recognition that exists and CPGAs do NOT have to pay for many courses around the world. If they do have to pay, it is often at a very discounted (sometimes trivial cart fee) rate. Remember... international recognition. Those are the key words!

Like I stated in my earlier post, it was not my intention to bash CGTFs personally. I'm sure some of them are excellent instructors and better than many CPGA ones out there. It was my intention, however, to make it known to the golfers living in the Greater Toronto Area that there are three different types of golf teachers out there:

1) Independent: These guys are usually good golfers and have taken it upon themselves to start teaching people (usually people they know) and the kicker is, they charge you money for the lesson.

Analogy: Your buddy is good at fixing cars and you have a problem with yours. Would you rather take your car to a certified mechanic or to your buddy's? It's true that your buddy COULD be better than the mechanic though, you never know.

2) CGTF: I've been to the website and you know what? I'm still not convinced. Two rounds of 83 (in my opinion) might not be enough for someone to tell me that they know how to fix my swing. Plus, nobody in the business (half-decent golf courses and practice facilities) will give me a job because I'm not the official designation around. Thus I am forced to charge cheaper rates and appeal to the population that does not know the difference between CPGA and CGTF.

Analogy: I am a "certified" mechanic but I did the weekend crash course at Joe Shmoe College. The question remains, would you rather take your car to a certified mechanic or to someone who graduated from joe shmoe's weekend course? It's true that someone from Joe Shmoe MIGHT be better than the mechanic though, you never know.

3) CPGA: Ah....certification, recognition. Expensive yearly dues and fees, need to shoot 156 over two rounds to get your teaching card. Heirarchical structure exists (e.g., head pro, Class A pro, Assistant Pro, etc.).

Analogy: The "certified" mechanic. Like we all know, there are those mechanics that are horrible and there are those that are good. It could very well be that your buddy or a Joe Shmoe graduate could fix your car better than the certified mechanic. However, if you care about your car, who would you rather take your car to? Especially if you are in the position where you know nothing about any of them! Would you want to take your car to your buddy's place and let him/her try? Would you want to take your car to the garage of the Joe Shmoe graduate (or even worse...take your car here THINKING that he is the same as the person who did the entire college program) because he might charge a bit less? Or will you, knowing you need to spend money on your car, take your car to a certified mechanic? The choice is yours.

I'm just trying to raise awareness here. If I didn't know where to go and needed to spend money on my own car (I need golf instruction) to get something fixed (my golf swing) I would definitely bring the car to the certified mechanic (CPGA pro).

This post is about raising awareness. It is about directing people who want to improve or learn the game to the correct people. Are they better teachers? Well I don't know! Maybe! Maybe not. All I know is that I would much rather have my car in the hands of a certified mechanic.

Kevin

[Michael]

Kevin,

after reading your post, this is what I would do if I was looking for an instructor tomorrow...

ask my friends or other experts (such as ppl on here on this forum) if they know any instructors they recommend (doesn't matter what certification the instructors have)

if that fails, I will look for a CPGA instructor :)

[Special_K]

Kevin,

after reading your post, this is what I would do if I was looking for an instructor tomorrow...

ask my friends or other experts (such as ppl on here on this forum) if they know any instructors they recommend (doesn't matter what certification the instructors have)

if that fails, I will look for a CPGA instructor :)
:rofl:

Sounds awesome Mike! :D

[Ego Woods]

Like I stated in my earlier post, it was not my intention to bash CGTFs personally. I'm sure some of them are excellent instructors and better than many CPGA ones out there. It was my intention, however, to make it known to the golfers living in the Greater Toronto Area that there are three different types of golf teachers out there: .........
.
.
.....Kevin
Good argument......I definitely see the advantages to both CGTF and CPGA....

1. CGTF: There are those that just want to start off in the game and play recreationally probably don't want to spend too much if they're not sure if they want to actively get in the sport......these type of ppl probably would go the route of CGTF.....using your analogy...I have a Dodge Spirit....do I just want to pay somebody to fix up my car so I can drive, or do I want to get a certified professional with all the bells and whistles?

2. CPGA: I've been playing for a year or two now, and I realize that I love this sport and I know I will be playing this game most likely the rest of my life..I want to get much better at it and need some professional help......car analogy: I have a Lexus SC430 (I wish!)...do I want to send the Lexus certified professional technicians handle it? or someone who earned their certification in less than a month?

[Special_K]

Good argument......I definitely see the advantages to both CGTF and CPGA....

1. CGTF: There are those that just want to start off in the game and play recreationally probably don't want to spend too much if they're not sure if they want to actively get in the sport......these type of ppl probably would go the route of CGTF.....using your analogy...I have a Dodge Spirit....do I just want to pay somebody to fix up my car so I can drive, or do I want to get a certified professional with all the bells and whistles?

2. CPGA: I've been playing for a year or two now, and I realize that I love this sport and I know I will be playing this game most likely the rest of my life..I want to get much better at it and need some professional help......car analogy: I have a Lexus SC430 (I wish!)...do I want to send the Lexus certified professional technicians handle it? or someone who earned their certification in less than a month?
Yep! You got it Ego. The thing I worry most about is that person looking for a mechanic and not realizing the difference between Joe Shmoe and Mr. Certified, or taking their baby to Joe Shmoe thinking they are Mr. Certified.

[MSGOLF]

What's the difference? I've got the best answer since I started out as a CGTF Member and left to be a CPGA Professional.

When I first wanted to get into the golf career I looked up all the information about the CPGA and CGTF and made a quick and costly first decision. CGTF was way easier and much quicker to obtain some type of Certification which was only reconized by their association I found out later.

I know I could Shoot 85 or better but at that time I couldn't break 78. So I signed up for the 1 week crash coarse on how to teach golf. Key word... CRASH COARSE... I did it, shot 82-84 to make it in. I was ready for the golf world but they weren't ready for me. I applied to 10 facilites and all of them said thanks but your certification doesn't mean anything to us. I ended up like most CGTF teachers working at a run down driving range for the summer trying to get by. Well I finally went to a CPGA Pro and asked him to sign me up under his guidence for 3 yrs I worked in the golf business and worked on my game. I then applied to the CPGA and past my Play-ability Test which was 156 or less not 170 like the CGTF. I then had to attend 2 workshops before I can teach. We also have yearly seminars we must attend and 3 more workshops that must be completed. This is a 7 year commitment to truely becoming a true GOLF PRO.

Now there is a GOLF PRO and a TEACHING PRO. The CPGA teaches you how to run and operate a golf facility or golf course. It's more business oriented and if you wish to strickly teach you can put more effort into that part of the business. Alot more doors open up for you as you get well reconized as a CPGA Pro.

So the difference between the 2 associations is huge. The CGTF is a person who had a vision to create an outside teaching federation for those who didn't want to enter the CPGA Program. He's making a killing to say the least. The dues for the CGTF is $250/yr where as the CPGA is $800 to $1200 yr. Basically the difference is not just FREE GOLF which isn't always the case for the CPGA but it's the yearly upkeep of the CPGA to keep CPGA instructors up to date with the golf business and golf instruction.

The difference between a CPGA instructor and a CGTF instructor is greatly shown from the association that trains them longer then a 1 week CGTF Coarse. Would you get a golf lesson from a person with 1 week training or 5 years training? That's not to say that you can't get a good golf lesson from a good CGTF Instructor who most likey is a good player and has had some lessons from a CPGA professional. If you find a instructor that you like and he/she makes you better then that is the bottom line. I've now opened my own CPGA Golf Academy at the Launch Golf Centre in Vaughan. I have 3 Top CPGA Instructors and one apprentice in training who also has his CGTF but is working to become a CPGA Pro.

The best advice I can give anyone is, ask a friend or look up information on golf pro's and what you get for your money. If your a beginner I strongly recommend you start off on the most important fundamentals at the beginning and learn the proper golf setup and swing that will benefit you years to come. We use Video Swing Analysis software and many teaching aids to help you improve.

I look forward to helping any of the other members with any questions they may have.

That's my 2 cents!

[Jaydog]

welcome to the forum msgolf!

thanks for further clarifying the differences. learning so much from this thread. :D

[Special_K]

Thanks for clarifying Matt. No matter what I say, it's always better when you hear it from the pro himself.

Welcome to the forum! I was at Launch on Monday...

Kevin

[marc757]

Ahhhh....the ol' CGTF vs. CPGA discussion.

The CPGA is definitely the more highly regarded organization when it comes to certifying golf professionals, and has more stringent requirements for gaining CPGA designation. As one previous post stated, professionals coming out of the CPGA program are more than just instructors, they are golf pros who have gone through the course to seek a career in the golf industry. The CGTF on the other hand is only about helping people learn how to teach the game of golf.

It may not have been the original intention of this thread, but it seems to have escalated into a "which has the better instructors" discussion. Just a few points from the other posts that I'd like to bring to light:

- "But I would question why someone would choose NOT to obtain their CPGA because of the obvious benefit"

I did the CGTF just for the experience which I found enjoyable and rewarding. I have considered undergoing the CPGA process but I think Q-School hit the nail on the head that not everyone can afford to reinvest the time and money needed to obtain their CPGA card.

- "CGTF is the "unofficial" Canadian (I won't even call it professional) golf association"

Well, basically the definition of a professional is one who performs a service in exchange for money. CPGA/CGTF pros may or may not accept money for their services, but those who do are in essence, professionals.

- "CPGA: Ah....certification, recognition. Expensive yearly dues and fees, need to shoot 156 over two rounds to get your teaching card. Heirarchical structure exists (e.g., head pro, Class A pro, Assistant Pro, etc.)"

"CGTF? sorry... but you have to pay for your golf just like everybody else because you're unrecognized."

You may be surprised to know that the CGTF does operate on a heirarchical structure (equivalent to a USGTF level 4) and has a higher level of certification that includes shooting 152 over two rounds, among other requirements. The CGTF also operates under the World Golf Teacher's Federation which is not entirely unrecognized. Actually, I know people who have enjoyed the privilege of playing free golf in Asia using their CGTF designation.

Anyway, so who's got the better instructors? In my opinion, both organizations have their good and bad instructors.

Does shooting low scores and playing free golf make you a better teacher? Well then, by that token the PGA tour pros are the greatest instructors in the world, yet they hire people who are lesser players to be their swing coaches.

How important is certification anyways? I can't be certain but the most highly regarded instructors in the world (i.e Harmon, Leadbetter, Maclean, Smith, Flick, etc.) do not teach under any certification, so I guess the "Independants" are the best instructors out there huh?

Bottom line, a good instructor will be able to detect problems with a golfer's swing and can provide solutions to fix those problems to obtain the desired result. If you can get people to pay you to do that then all the power to you. Being a good instructor has nothing to do with which golf organization you belong to.

Just my $0.02

Marcus

[MSGOLF]

I've highlighted my comments with a :) after the sentence.

Ahhhh....the ol' CGTF vs. CPGA discussion.

The CPGA is definitely the more highly regarded organization when it comes to certifying golf professionals, and has more stringent requirements for gaining CPGA designation. As one previous post stated, professionals coming out of the CPGA program are more than just instructors, they are golf pros who have gone through the course to seek a career in the golf industry. The CGTF on the other hand is only about helping people learn how to teach the game of golf.

It may not have been the original intention of this thread, but it seems to have escalated into a "which has the better instructors" discussion. Just a few points from the other posts that I'd like to bring to light:

- "But I would question why someone would choose NOT to obtain their CPGA because of the obvious benefit"

I did the CGTF just for the experience which I found enjoyable and rewarding. I have considered undergoing the CPGA process but I think Q-School hit the nail on the head that not everyone can afford to reinvest the time and money needed to obtain their CPGA card.

:) My point exactly. People that don't invest the time and effort needed to become a highly trainned Professional at any TRADE let alone a (CPGA) pro. So when your paying for a $50 lesson or a getting a $100 hr lesson just remember what your getting for your $50 bucks. Why is it that most highly priced lawyers get the big bucks?? Because they usally get the job done!

- "CGTF is the "unofficial" Canadian (I won't even call it professional) golf association"

Well, basically the definition of a professional is one who performs a service in exchange for money. CPGA/CGTF pros may or may not accept money for their services, but those who do are in essence, professionals.

:) So if I changed the oil in your car that would make me a certified mechanic? Would you then trust me to change your transmission?

- "CPGA: Ah....certification, recognition. Expensive yearly dues and fees, need to shoot 156 over two rounds to get your teaching card. Heirarchical structure exists (e.g., head pro, Class A pro, Assistant Pro, etc.)"

"CGTF? sorry... but you have to pay for your golf just like everybody else because you're unrecognized."

You may be surprised to know that the CGTF does operate on a heirarchical structure (equivalent to a USGTF level 4) and has a higher level of certification that includes shooting 152 over two rounds, among other requirements. The CGTF also operates under the World Golf Teacher's Federation which is not entirely unrecognized. Actually, I know people who have enjoyed the privilege of playing free golf in Asia using their CGTF designation.

:) Yes I know and did you know that the CPGA also has Class A status and Master Teaching Status which again is harder to get then the higher ranked USGTF or CGTF programs!

Anyway, so who's got the better instructors? In my opinion, both organizations have their good and bad instructors.

:) I agree but let's get one thing straight the CPGA has much more training then the CGTF or even the USGTF. I'll agree there are even bad CPGA pro's but there are alot worse CGTF pro's. Even the good CGTF Pro's would have enough experience to become a CPGA Pro if they would take the time and effort in becoming one.

Does shooting low scores and playing free golf make you a better teacher? Well then, by that token the PGA tour pros are the greatest instructors in the world, yet they hire people who are lesser players to be their swing coaches.

:) I never said shooting low scores make you a better teacher but it sure does show alot more expereince on how to play and swing the club.

How important is certification anyways? I can't be certain but the most highly regarded instructors in the world (i.e Harmon, Leadbetter, Maclean, Smith, Flick, etc.) do not teach under any certification, so I guess the "Independants" are the best instructors out there huh?

:) Are you kidding me? Your talking about the most recgonized Golf Teaching Pro's in the world. PGA Pro's play and practice everyday that is their profession. Leadbetter, harmon and etc TEACH as a profession which is why they are the best at what they do because they do it day in day out and make the best players in the world win $$$$. They are PGA Teaching Pro's

Bottom line, a good instructor will be able to detect problems with a golfer's swing and can provide solutions to fix those problems to obtain the desired result. If you can get people to pay you to do that then all the power to you. Being a good instructor has nothing to do with which golf organization you belong to.

:) To a degree yes but does that mean that because I know how to cut and hammer 2x4's really good I could build your dream house and you'd pay me for it? Just like you look for a contractor you should look for a Professional. Look at the place they work the amount of golf lesson they do and the best thing you can do is if you know of someone who is taking lessons and they are getting better then try the pro out. I know alot of guys that try to teach golf but don't understand the fundamentals of the golf swing and usually teach what works for them. No one golf swing is the same but certain aspects of the golf swing are very important to have and teaching somone how to get there should be in the hands of a TRAINNED Professional with lots of experience.

;) My bottom line to this debate is: CGTF vs CPGA without dought your getting more for your money if you find the right CPGA golf pro then trying to find a good CGTF instructor. Overall it's most likely your going to find a higher percentage of getting a good golf lesson when you look for a CPGA pro vs a CGTF pro. I'd bet my money on the Favorites because it's rare that you'll ever when big on betting with the underdogs!

That's my Loonie!

Just my $0.02

Marcus

[marc757]

Hey, sorry if I've offended anyone with my opinions but I think alot of my points were missed, perhaps I wasn't clear. Judging from the style of Matt's reply, it appears that my post came accross as pro-CGTF which was far from my intention. I was merely commenting on a previous post's points which I did not totally agree with. I'll try to clear a few things up.

- "My point exactly. People that don't invest the time and effort needed to become a highly trainned Professional at any TRADE let alone a (CPGA) pro. So when your paying for a $50 lesson or a getting a $100 hr lesson just remember what your getting for your $50 bucks. Why is it that most highly priced lawyers get the big bucks?? Because they usally get the job done!"

You've missed the point. The original issue in question was why somebody would choose not to pursue their CPGA designation and I guess "settle" for a CGTF one. I agreed with Q-school that not everyone is able or willing to reinvest the time and money needed to do so. The oppurtunity costs of undergoing CPGA certification perhaps far outweigh the potential benefits. I think I've missed the point of your comment because I don't see how it relates to the original issue in question.

- "So if I changed the oil in your car that would make me a certified mechanic? Would you then trust me to change your transmission?"

I think you may have missed the point once again. This time, the question is more about what is the definition of the word professional, not wether or not you are certified. Since a previous forum member was apprehensive about calling the CGTF a "professional" organization, I simply brought to light that the essential meaning of a professional is to perform a service in exchange for monetary benefits. To simplify things, CGTF members teach golf (perform the service) and recieve money (monetary benefit) in exchange. Therefore they are professionals.

Actually, if you were extremely proficient in servicing vehicles I'd be glad to let you take care of my car.

- "Yes I know and did you know that the CPGA also has Class A status and Master Teaching Status which again is harder to get then the higher ranked USGTF or CGTF programs!"

- "I never said shooting low scores make you a better teacher but it sure does show alot more expereince on how to play and swing the club."

Your quotes are somewhat contradictory of one another. I'm well aware of the different levels of the CPGA but I was merely exposing the ignorance of a previous post which basically stated that CGTF certification is bogus because it requires a relatively weaker score of 166-170. Really, I feel that certification may be overated in some aspects. What if a person was a great teacher but a mediocre player, does that mean you throw what he/she said out the window just because they themselves are not as good at playing the game? I think anyone with that mentality would be foolish to do so. By that same token who the heck would the world's greatest players listen to?

- "Are you kidding me? Your talking about the most recgonized Golf Teaching Pro's in the world. PGA Pro's play and practice everyday that is their profession. Leadbetter, harmon and etc TEACH as a profession which is why they are the best at what they do because they do it day in day out and make the best players in the world win $$$$. They are PGA Teaching Pro's"

I'm not kidding. You may have missed the point once again. You just re-enforced my argument. My point is that they ARE recognized as the best instructors out there and that they do not teach under a governing golf organization. Once again, my point is that the quality or ability of the instructor is not dependant on his/her certification, which is why I questioned the value of certification with regards to teaching ability. These guys can flat out teach, they don't need the CPGA/CGTF/USGTF/TGNTF to do so.

I'd make sure you understand the argument before commenting. I totally agree that CPGA pros undergo far more extensive preparation in becoming professionals in the golf industry.

Marcus.

P.S. Actually I think many people have won big betting on the underdogs in the Ryder Cup for the past years.

[MSGOLF]

Marc, I think we are both trying to get across similiar points and I understand yours and I think you understand mine. The quesiton was simply CGTF vs CPGA.

In my opinion the winner by far no question in my mind is the CPGA.

I've been on both sides of these associations and I problably have the best answer for this question considering I've been there. I don't think anyone else in this forum has their CGTF an CPGA certification like I do and if there is they'd be saying the same thing.

The bottom line still comes down to it's the person not the certification which makes them a good golf teacher but it's the training in which that person was taught which is what will make them a great golf teacher.

Marc your opinion is always nice to hear that's why this is called a forum.

Good luck on the underdogs! ;)

Matthew

Hey, sorry if I've offended anyone with my opinions but I think alot of my points were missed, perhaps I wasn't clear. Judging from the style of Matt's reply, it appears that my post came accross as pro-CGTF which was far from my intention. I was merely commenting on a previous post's points which I did not totally agree with. I'll try to clear a few things up.

- "My point exactly. People that don't invest the time and effort needed to become a highly trainned Professional at any TRADE let alone a (CPGA) pro. So when your paying for a $50 lesson or a getting a $100 hr lesson just remember what your getting for your $50 bucks. Why is it that most highly priced lawyers get the big bucks?? Because they usally get the job done!"

You've missed the point. The original issue in question was why somebody would choose not to pursue their CPGA designation and I guess "settle" for a CGTF one. I agreed with Q-school that not everyone is able or willing to reinvest the time and money needed to do so. The oppurtunity costs of undergoing CPGA certification perhaps far outweigh the potential benefits. I think I've missed the point of your comment because I don't see how it relates to the original issue in question.

- "So if I changed the oil in your car that would make me a certified mechanic? Would you then trust me to change your transmission?"

I think you may have missed the point once again. This time, the question is more about what is the definition of the word professional, not wether or not you are certified. Since a previous forum member was apprehensive about calling the CGTF a "professional" organization, I simply brought to light that the essential meaning of a professional is to perform a service in exchange for monetary benefits. To simplify things, CGTF members teach golf (perform the service) and recieve money (monetary benefit) in exchange. Therefore they are professionals.

Actually, if you were extremely proficient in servicing vehicles I'd be glad to let you take care of my car.

- "Yes I know and did you know that the CPGA also has Class A status and Master Teaching Status which again is harder to get then the higher ranked USGTF or CGTF programs!"

- "I never said shooting low scores make you a better teacher but it sure does show alot more expereince on how to play and swing the club."

Your quotes are somewhat contradictory of one another. I'm well aware of the different levels of the CPGA but I was merely exposing the ignorance of a previous post which basically stated that CGTF certification is bogus because it requires a relatively weaker score of 166-170. Really, I feel that certification may be overated in some aspects. What if a person was a great teacher but a mediocre player, does that mean you throw what he/she said out the window just because they themselves are not as good at playing the game? I think anyone with that mentality would be foolish to do so. By that same token who the heck would the world's greatest players listen to?

- "Are you kidding me? Your talking about the most recgonized Golf Teaching Pro's in the world. PGA Pro's play and practice everyday that is their profession. Leadbetter, harmon and etc TEACH as a profession which is why they are the best at what they do because they do it day in day out and make the best players in the world win $$$$. They are PGA Teaching Pro's"

I'm not kidding. You may have missed the point once again. You just re-enforced my argument. My point is that they ARE recognized as the best instructors out there and that they do not teach under a governing golf organization. Once again, my point is that the quality or ability of the instructor is not dependant on his/her certification, which is why I questioned the value of certification with regards to teaching ability. These guys can flat out teach, they don't need the CPGA/CGTF/USGTF/TGNTF to do so.

I'd make sure you understand the argument before commenting. I totally agree that CPGA pros undergo far more extensive preparation in becoming professionals in the golf industry.

Marcus.

P.S. Actually I think many people have won big betting on the underdogs in the Ryder Cup for the past years.

[Queen of the Beach]

hmm this is all very informative. I never knew that the CGTF designation even existed before I read about it on this thread. :$

Based on what I've read there is a lot of discussion and debate about which Assocation is better and also which instructors are better. I've read a lot of car analogies. So let me use a "school teacher" analogy to clarify if I understand this debate. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will compare the number of teaching years and professional accreditations of elementary school teachers and university professors. So in my analogy, the CGTF instructors are like to elementary school teachers and CPGA instructors are like University professors.

From the point of view of a beginner golfer, only interested in learning the basics and improving on my swing, I want to build a foundation of golf knowledge. I don't think it matters how long the teacher has been teaching or how they obtained their certification. I don't think I am at the level to absorb the teachings of what a CPGA instructor would be teaching me. As a beginner golfer, I am only interested in improving my game but within realistic expectations. I don't expect my lessons to turn me into a scratch golfer. I don't think that it is worth it for me to spend $1000s of dollars on lessons. I only want to correct my swing and get more consistent drives or putts in my game. If a CGTF instructor can do this for less money then that is all I care about. After all I'm not trying out for the LPGA tour. However, if I was a parent and wanted my son or daughter to grow up to become the next Tiger or Michele Wie...then maybe I would choose to invest in his or her golf education by enrolling him or her with lessons from a CPGA instructor. :rolleyes:

[Special_K]

hmm this is all very informative. I never knew that the CGTF designation even existed before I read about it on this thread. :$

Based on what I've read there is a lot of discussion and debate about which Assocation is better and also which instructors are better. I've read a lot of car analogies. So let me use a "school teacher" analogy to clarify if I understand this debate. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will compare the number of teaching years and professional accreditations of elementary school teachers and university professors. So in my analogy, the CGTF instructors are like to elementary school teachers and CPGA instructors are like University professors.

From the point of view of a beginner golfer, only interested in learning the basics and improving on my swing, I want to build a foundation of golf knowledge. I don't think it matters how long the teacher has been teaching or how they obtained their certification. I don't think I am at the level to absorb the teachings of what a CPGA instructor would be teaching me. As a beginner golfer, I am only interested in improving my game but within realistic expectations. I don't expect my lessons to turn me into a scratch golfer. I don't think that it is worth it for me to spend $1000s of dollars on lessons. I only want to correct my swing and get more consistent drives or putts in my game. If a CGTF instructor can do this for less money then that is all I care about. After all I'm not trying out for the LPGA tour. However, if I was a parent and wanted my son or daughter to grow up to become the next Tiger or Michele Wie...then maybe I would choose to invest in his or her golf education by enrolling him or her with lessons from a CPGA instructor. :rolleyes:
QB,

I would say that the CPGA instructor is the elementary school teacher (with certification from the Ontario College of Teachers along with their Bachelor's Degree in Education) and the CGTF is the graduate of the "Crash Course in Education" (one does not exist). The CGTF can't get a job teaching at schools because they require all their teachers to be accredited.

CPGAs (like any good instructor) can teach at any level, from the beginner learning the ropes to the advanced scratch golfer trying to fine tune his/her game. I think if you care enough about your golf game to actually go out and spend money on lessons, spend money with the certified professionals.

Kev

PS: I'm an elementary school teacher with a Master's Degree in Education. Some elementary school teachers have as much education as some university professors! ;)

[Shadow]

My only qualifications to judge the quality of golf teaching are being around the game for 43 years, being a low digit handicapper and having studied the teachings of scores of instructors from past to present, so my opinions might be readily dismissed.

Perhaps the GTA has a greater number of good teachers than the Ottawa area, however, if the quality of lessons that I have taken/witnessed/heard here, is similar to the GTA, the golf teaching profession is in sad shape. If the average RCGA handicap index has improved by less than 1 in over 50 years, and with all the modern day equipment that is making the game so much easier, does this not at least partly reflect the quality of the teaching skills out there?

If you check my last post on Golf-mythology, you will see a number of expressions than many/most of the instructors use in their teaching, that are just not true. You "turn the shoulders," "you cock the wrists," "you stay behind the ball," "you shift your weight," "power comes from the big muscles," etc., all of which focus the mind of the golfer on the wrong, little tiny part of the body, that needs to move just so, in order to achieve the desired results. No wonder golfers' progress is so slow. How many golf instructors teach golfers what to think about, while they are actually swinging the golf club? Most probably suggest that the golfer think about some specific swing key, that will lead him/her to success.

Regardless of how the person gets qualified to teach, one would think that they would have sufficient knowledge of the physics of a golf swing that leads to straight shots, before they learned how to communicate what to do or feel. Most instruction is still based on perception and feeling. Studying the swings of the great players, finding out what they felt or what they felt they were doing, is still the basis of modern day instruction. The success of Jack Nicklaus did not help. When he became great, all of a sudden an extremely upright backswing was taught.(Yes, I am that old) But no-one taught us that we needed superior, world class, athletic talent, to compensate for this fault on the way down to get the club into a position that would fly the ball on a reasonable line. It seems that to becoming a CPGA professional requires more extensive training than the CGTF, but regardless, if the professional lacks sufficient knowledge of the swing, how can he be an effective teacher?

Many think that because Harmon, Leadbetter, MacLean, etc., have Tour professionals in their stable, that they are the best teachers. Puleeese. Dean Reimuth? These guys and some of what they profess, are the reasons why the average smuck makes little progress. Just listen to MacLeans 8 step swing, 16 corollaries, 64 sub-corollaries, and tell me he is a great teacher. How about his "X" factor! How many good golfers has Leadbetter ruined? It's criminal that Michelle Wie is in his camp. I hope that she does well in spite of him, because she sure won't do well because of him. However, hats off to these guys for being successful marketers of their stuff and nonsense. They would make great vacuum cleaner salesman.

I still say that the best teachers are you guys that are found at the small ranges and golf academys, not at the posh private clubs and on TV. You have studied the golf swing extensively, separated the BS from the truth, and worked on communicating the correct knowledge and feelings to those who come to you. Keep up the good work.

The only name professional whose work I have studied, and whose knowledge and opinions I respect, is MARK EVERSHED. And he is one of yours, Toronto.

[Michael]

Wow this is definitely a very hot topic :D
Lets take this example, you decide to learn a new musical instrument, would you need to go hire a teacher from Juilliard (costing at least 3 times as much as someone that graduate from Royal Conservatory of Music)? I think not. At least not right away.

QB,

I would say that the CPGA instructor is the elementary school teacher (with certification from the Ontario College of Teachers along with their Bachelor's Degree in Education) and the CGTF is the graduate of the "Crash Course in Education" (one does not exist). The CGTF can't get a job teaching at schools because they require all their teachers to be accredited.

CPGAs (like any good instructor) can teach at any level, from the beginner learning the ropes to the advanced scratch golfer trying to fine tune his/her game. I think if you care enough about your golf game to actually go out and spend money on lessons, spend money with the certified professionals.

Kev

PS: I'm an elementary school teacher with a Master's Degree in Education. Some elementary school teachers have as much education as some university professors! ;)

[MSGOLF]

Michael,

You can hire a CPGA professional from $50/hr to $250/hr or you can hire a CGTF professional at $50/hr to $120/hr. Now choose?



Wow this is definitely a very hot topic :D
Lets take this example, you decide to learn a new musical instrument, would you need to go hire a teacher from Juilliard (costing at least 3 times as much as someone that graduate from Royal Conservatory of Music)? I think not. At least not right away.

[Michael]

Michael,

You can hire a CPGA professional from $50/hr to $250/hr or you can hire a CGTF professional at $50/hr to $120/hr. Now choose?
find me a CPGA that costs semi private (2 ppl) $90 per person for 5 one hour lessons and I'd love to take lessons from a CPGA then :D :D :D

[MSGOLF]

I'm sure you can find a new CPGA Assistant and a golf range that is looking for new golf clients that have lower rates. But you've answered the question of CGTF VS CPGA by saying, "You'd prefer a CPGA Pro" That's all the question is asking. It's not asking who's price points are better it's asking if you had a choice from a CGTF Pro to a CPGA Pro who would you pick.


Thanks

find me a CPGA that costs semi private (2 ppl) $90 per person for 5 one hour lessons and I'd love to take lessons from a CPGA then :D :D :D

[Michael]

I'm sure you can find a new CPGA Assistant and a golf range that is looking for new golf clients that have lower rates. But you've answered the question of CGTF VS CPGA by saying, "You'd prefer a CPGA Pro" That's all the question is asking. It's not asking who's price points are better it's asking if you had a choice from a CGTF Pro to a CPGA Pro who would you pick.


Thanks
if the price was equal sure I would pick the CPGA Pro...I don't think anyone is disputing that. We already know who has more training, which association is more prestigious and which is harder to get into and blah blah blah and so on.

However, the CGTF is an alternative to a CPGA that costs significantly less and does a decent job to a point.

[Ego Woods]

However, the CGTF is an alternative to a CPGA that costs significantly less and does a decent job to a point.
I'd have to agree with Michael on this point.....I don't think there would be many to dispute that a CPGA Pro would make for a better instructor than a CGTF with all the rigorous training that they go through and the experience that they acquire......

But to the avg or middle/lower income individual it would always boil down to cost.....can I afford lessons from a CPGA Pro on an on-going basis? For myself probably not.......would CGTF make for a good alternative? It might seem so......unless there was a better alternative that I am not familiar with.....

[Special_K]

I'd have to agree with Michael on this point.....I don't think there would be many to dispute that a CPGA Pro would make for a better instructor than a CGTF with all the rigorous training that they go through and the experience that they acquire......

But to the avg or middle/lower income individual it would always boil down to cost.....can I afford lessons from a CPGA Pro on an on-going basis? For myself probably not.......would CGTF make for a good alternative? It might seem so......unless there was a better alternative that I am not familiar with.....
And it really boils down to how serious you are about the game. Can anybody truly afford on-going lessons with a CPGA pro? Probably not unless you're filthy rich. Some people even hire a private swing coach for thousands of dollars a year but is this a realistic option for most? No way.

But the point is this and I've said it many times. If you care enough about your game to want to spend money on lessons, save up a little more and spend it on a CPGA professional. There isn't a need for on-going lessons. We're not trying to join the PGA tour here. What is somewhat viable is a series of lessons (e.g., 5 throughout the season) with a CPGA pro. Many of them offer package prices!

Take a lesson, go practice for a while, go play some. Come back, take another lesson ,etc. How effective is this you might ask? Well extremely I found. Instead of spending money on a new driver, I took those series of lessons with a CPGA pro a couple of seasons ago. This resulted in my greatest improvement in my golf game ever. I found it extremely helpful to take a lesson, absorb, go work on things and then come back. With 5 lessons spread out throughout the season, I felt as if I constantly had a coach monitoring my swing.

Thus, I think there is your option. Nobody I know can afford a CPGA instructor 365days of the year. For a few hundred dollars though, you can get private lessons spaced throughout a season. Less than the price of that fancy new driver you might have been eyeing! :)

PS: Mike, 90 bucks per person for 5 lessons for 2 people? I wouldn't teach you for that little ;) :D That is just dirt cheap!

[Jaydog]

can i assume that the difference between the USGTF and CGTF is the same as that of the CTGF and CPGA?

[Dormie]

cgtf is much like getting a university degree in india
you mostly need the tuition fee

cpga you need commitment to a profession and a career

this is not all like car repairs, as repairs are definitely correct or not
golf instruction is based on our performance and abilities
which is not a exact science
that is why there have been touring pros that swing un orthodox
miller barber, trevino, stadler, jim thorpe, allen doyle, couples, moe norman,
nancy lopez, arnold palmer
contrasted by the geo knudsen, gene littler, sam snead, steve elkington

note:
at launch Mike Vinnick is a great instructor
and Gerard Waslen runs a nice operation

[Jaydog]

i was checking the site benny provided on dec. 1 and still have some confusion. anyone out there know if they are comparable? that is, is cgtf and usgtf certification the same?

thanks.

[Q-School]

i was checking the site benny provided on dec. 1 and still have some confusion. anyone out there know if they are comparable? that is, is cgtf and usgtf certification the same?

thanks.Yes, CGTF is an affiliation of USGTF. The certification is the same.

[Jaydog]

Yes, CGTF is an affiliation of USGTF. The certification is the same.

thx for clearing that up, qs; i found a training centre where one of the instructors had both the cgtf and usgtf certification.

[kearstyn1]

CGTF vs CPGA



I get a kick out of people trying to knock the CGTF. They're the same type of people that would probably prefer that Canada had only one race of people, one religion, one university that trained doctors, or only one type of fast food chain that was permitted to sell hamburgers. Fortunately, however, we live in a country that does not allow monopolies to exist. And, the CPGA was certainly a monopoly. Imagine spending four years as an "apprentice,” working 70 hours a week for minimum wage, and then paying outrageous annual dues to the powers-that-be just in order to "one day be able to teach the game." And, I may add, never really being taught how to do so.
Every economist will tell you that a monopoly always leads to a dictatorial type of control over its employees. Now, take a look at the CPGA and then a closer look at the history of free enterprise. If ever one was looking for a classic example of control over its aspiring apprentices, this would be a textbook example and great tale to tell.

No wonder the CPGA are upset! They had it made! No one ever questioned their monarchy and this total control over their "apprentices." Of course, the naysayers always say the same thing over and over again like broken records. "How can someone learn to teach golf in one week while it takes PGA pros four years to achieve their teaching requirements?” Well first of all, most CGTF candidates have played golf all of their lives. Furthermore, they have a wealth of experience from other areas of business and life that they, fortunately for the first time in the history of Canadian golf instruction, happen to bring to the golf teaching arena. Owners of golf courses throughout Canada are starting to realize this and in fact are certainly benefiting from this unique preference for more "well rounded" employees to run their facilities.

And, from another angle, take a look at the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance---a strong, proud Canadian entity who definitely do not take a back seat to anyone in the world when it comes to teaching skiing. Guess how that came to be? You're right ----one week certification courses with continuing education---just like the CGTF! Don't tell a Level 1V CSIA member that they can't teach skiing!
What the CGTF has actually done, then, is to provide opportunity when none previously existed. Prior to their existence, the only way to teach golf was as previously stated-----join the mass forces of "apprentices," work as slave labor, and pay annual membership fees in the amount that most of these poor kids can hardly save, let alone pay back to the PGA in order to call themselves "pros." Even better, try to leave the industry for personal or medical purposes, only to try and return several years later. You guessed it-----"Sorry boys, back to the apprentice ranks…what's that you say?...You were once a Class A?...Shame on you for leaving the organization…now back in the hull with the rest of all those deckhands mate! Your past life with us means nothing.”
Take a close look at what the CGTF has achieved in its 12-year existence. Over 1,500 active members sharing their passion with others, with their head office in Oakville, Ontario, great interesting archived articles on all aspects of teaching golf that I have yet to see from the CPGA, personal use member discounts from most major golf manufacturers and industry partners, Canadian-registered trademarks on words such as "certified golf teaching professional," and "master golf teaching professional," and web domain names like "golf teaching pro" and "golf teaching professional," the annual Canadian Golf Teachers Cup, and biennial World Golf Teachers Cup, and a quarterly member magazine that makes the CPGA publication look like a high school news bulletin both in quality and content. And here's an interesting one----the CGTF is one of 35 member nations that make up the World Golf Teachers Federation. This is the largest organization of golf teaching professionals in the world with over 19,000 members. These nations actually work together for the benefit of learning, competing, networking and sharing ideas. PGA's throughout the world do just the opposite ----it actually seems that they are jealous of one another. A Canadian immigrating to the United States with all CPGA criteria completed will be asked to start over again as an apprentice and vice versa! Imagine that! To this day there is still not an organization that amalgamates all the PGA's around the world for the benefit of their poor members. CGTF members have had the benefit of thinking globally for years now and PGA members are still stuck in a rut thinking nationally. Yea Canada!
And here's the best part----the PGA in America have already made dramatic changes in their teaching criteria in order to cope with the novel thinking and growth of the USGTF. Now let's watch the very nervous CPGA start doing the same! Always following in the USA's footsteps! Thank God for competition and keep up the great work CGTF!

by James Gellespie, Toronto, Ontario