Annika and Rules:

[milhaus]

Wow. That's three times this year I've seen her in a rules alteraction with an official and/or playing partners. Frankly, I think Paula was right, but it put her in a pretty difficult position today, no?

[Golfbum]

I caught that scene this afternoon. It was ugly, and Paula was not too comfortable with the proceedings. I doubt if that ball was on the fairway side of the red stakes, so she should have gone back to the tee and hit her 3rd shot from there. Why the rules official asked that marshall if he saw the ball flight is beyond me! I doubt he could see that far to begin with.
Annika was putting the pressure on Paula, I think Paula finally just walked away after giving the official her opinion. Tough situation to be in.

Now how about Christie Kerr dunking 2 balls in the pond on the 17th and making a smooth 7 on that Par 3. That was just plain UGLY:help: She was steamed. Bad enough the first shot was not even close to clearing the H2O, she made the mistake of doing it on her drop and 3rd shot. OUCH. Sad fact is she plays there all the time,she should have known what club to pull with that wind swirling around like it was.:confused:

[milhaus]

Perhaps someone will call in with proof, via trigonometry, that proves she took an illegal drop, and she'll be DQed for signing an incorrect scorecard. Really, Annika is kinda annoying in those situations; should have seen her put the screws to the old rules official during the summer - he held his ground though . . .

[Queen of the Beach]

It's competitive golf. People do what it takes to win. Hopefully without breaking any rules. In Paula's case, I think she should have gone back to the Tee if she was not 100% sure which side her ball landed.

[el tigre]

I caught that scene this afternoon. It was ugly, and Paula was not too comfortable with the proceedings. I doubt if that ball was on the fairway side of the red stakes, so she should have gone back to the tee and hit her 3rd shot from there. Why the rules official asked that marshall if he saw the ball flight is beyond me! I doubt he could see that far to begin with.
There seems to be some confusion about the facts in this situation and the rules issues involved, so I will post a summary from the Slam Sports site below:

The 420-yard closing hole is among the most daunting at Trump International, with water down the right side as it bends to the right toward the green, with a bunker that feeds into the lake. Creamer hit the middle of the fairway. As evening clouds gathered, Sorenstam hit a four-wood that the strong breeze carried slightly to the right.
There was no splash. They found the ball inside the red hazard line, plugged.

And that's when the dispute began.

"It came in as a little banana," Sorenstam said, reasoning that it had to cross the land before going beyond the red hazard line.

Creamer thought it was over the water during its entire flight, meaning Sorenstam would have had to hit her third shot from the tee.

There was no dispute that the ball was in the lateral water hazard - the dispute was where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. IOW, the entire issue revolved around the ball flight.

I didn't see the incident, but the facts would seem to support Annika because:

1) the player who hit the ball is in a better position to see ball flight (and is watching more closely) than someone standing off to the side. We are talking about a matter of inches being watched by people standing 200+ yards away. Positioning is everything.
2) there was a strong left to right breeze, making a fade/slice ball flight much more likely than a draw/hook (which is the only ball flight that would explain Creamer's story given the layout of the hole).

In cases involving the word of one player vs another, the word of the competitor who hit the ball is taken as correct unless there is some kind of evidence to the contrary. There was none, so the rules official decided in Annika's favour.

[iyell4]

There seems to be some confusion about the facts in this situation and the rules issues involved, so I will post a summary from the Slam Sports site below:

The 420-yard closing hole is among the most daunting at Trump International, with water down the right side as it bends to the right toward the green, with a bunker that feeds into the lake. Creamer hit the middle of the fairway. As evening clouds gathered, Sorenstam hit a four-wood that the strong breeze carried slightly to the right.
There was no splash. They found the ball inside the red hazard line, plugged.

And that's when the dispute began.

"It came in as a little banana," Sorenstam said, reasoning that it had to cross the land before going beyond the red hazard line.

Creamer thought it was over the water during its entire flight, meaning Sorenstam would have had to hit her third shot from the tee.

There was no dispute that the ball was in the lateral water hazard - the dispute was where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. IOW, the entire issue revolved around the ball flight.

I didn't see the incident, but the facts would seem to support Annika because:

1) the player who hit the ball is in a better position to see ball flight (and is watching more closely) than someone standing off to the side. We are talking about a matter of inches being watched by people standing 200+ yards away. Positioning is everything.
2) there was a strong left to right breeze, making a fade/slice ball flight much more likely than a draw/hook (which is the only ball flight that would explain Creamer's story given the layout of the hole).

In cases involving the word of one player vs another, the word of the competitor who hit the ball is taken as correct unless there is some kind of evidence to the contrary. There was none, so the rules official decided in Annika's favour.
thanks, et. you're like the clarica agent in those commercials. i had not idea what had transpired yesterday on lpga.

[milhaus]

Not disputing the call, but Annika originally wanted a drop from further up (not really sure why, since that would have put her in the hazard. And she spent ages debating that. Even the commentators were unsure why she spent so much time on that. My point is Annika's attitude; she has shown more than once, that even when she is wrong, that she will put the screws to people. It made Paula rather uncomfortable, and I would feel that way as well. Frankly, I'm not much of an Annika fan, after this and the previous incidents with the rules. Oh well, a well deserved double bogey.

[AnnikaFan]

no, annika didn't even know where she wanted to drop the ball to work in her favour (as she wasn't even thinking that)..she said so herself..all she want to do was trying to figure out where the ball crossed the line (whether if it cleared land or not)...where creamer said that it didn't clear land at all....That was what they were trying to figure out the entire time....though afterwards, when i heard the commentator explaining the situation..they said that that was indeed what they were trying to figure out..and after a while, they have decided that the ball crossed the hazard line between the two stakes...thus, a ball drop. And they all (except for creamer) agreed that the drop zone area was the fair-est way given the situation.

so its either drop zone, or go back to tee...why the heck would annika want to hit the ball from the bunker anyways

i personally dont' know why they call in that old guy..who was.hilarious...but can't they just look at where the ball was plugged?!?! the point of entry clearly showed that the ball was entered from the left (faiway) side...and it's so close to the line that there's no way how the ball couldn't clear land at all..

i personally find her attitude totally fine.its probably her swedish accent making her sounding much worse. ....unlike some other players in the pga or lpga..
if unsure, I would have called in a rules official as well......and in this case, she wasn't wrong...or at least, she didn't have to go back to the tee..(unlike previous cases where she's 'wrong')

anyways...agree with el that annika does have the best position....creamer couldn't have stood right behind annika....and also...annika said its a "little banana"...so its not like its gonna be obvious for those who stood on the side...though when Terry (annika's caddie) described the flight as a big cut...i wanted to kick him.....i dunno who's right (and i dont' really care.) but they are kind of contradicting to each other....though i'm pretty sure Terry said that so it'll sound more convincing...which i'm not sure if it's the right thing to do....."little banana" was perfectly fine....but creamer clearly didn't think so in her interview....

i actually <3 this new vicious annika! woot!

this actually made me dislike creamer even more. Just her look on her face the entire time, and what she said...it made her look like that she WANT annika to go back to the tee so that she can gain even more strokes on her...her post round interview didn't sit too well in my stomach too...though i would agree that if i was creamer.. i would have been annoyed for the delayed..but i would have shut my mouth instead




anyways...woah..cristie....her kicking her clubs and throwing the clubs at 17 after her first shot was ..kinda funny.......

[el tigre]

so its either drop zone, or go back to tee...why the heck would annika want to hit the ball from the bunker anyways
Tour pros are not intimidated by fairway bunker shots like us mere mortals - especially if they are dropping the ball themselves (so it should be a decent lie) into perfectly-groomed, beautifully-textured sand. If the difference from the drop zone was 20 or 30 yards, it may be preferable. I don't know if that was the case here, but it is possible...
...and it's so close to the line that there's no way how the ball couldn't clear land at all..
If the only land it cleared was inside the hazard line (i.e., a draw/hook ball flight), then the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard was back in front of the tee. Remember, the margin of the hazard is determined by the red stakes - not by the waterline. That's why the ball flight determination was so important.

[westbeach]

Red stakes - You have to drop within two club lengths. So say, if Annika's ball was deem to cross the hazard line where it did and she drops outside of two club length, there's a penalty for it. And since it's the last hole of the day, she could possibly sign an incorrect scorecard which would be very Michelle Wie like.

[AnnikaFan]

but a rule official was there to determine what should be the right thing to do..so she can't be DQ'ed..Michelle didn't consult a rule official, so she got DQed...right?

[westbeach]

I hope Annika comes back and wins the the tourney by ten strokes and tell everybody PC fired her up. Then it would be great if AS has an extraordinary season next year and used PC's behavior has motivation.

[AnnikaFan]

hahaha lol

well..so far in 2nd round...annika is back to top..while PC is +4 on the round..so far..
and good for cristie for bouncing back today with a 66

but its still too early


yea..PC has been targeting annika all year long...every single interview she had always mentioned that she's gonna de-throne annika next year and be #1 player..

i don't mind if she just go "i'm gonna work hard, and win lots and hopefully sit at top at the end of the season etc"...but i'm really annoyed that she likes to target the person/group

just like how she was like "europeans better get ready to get their arse kicked..and be prepared to lose." during the solheim cup........it would be better if she just go "we will win"...and i would have like her better.....tho she's lucky that she's good and has a lot of potential..so she's not just ALL talk....she can actually back it up by her actions...but...not everytime....but this over confident thingy..and staring others down like they are nothing..telling them that they are going down..doesn't suit my taste..

[milhaus]

hahaha lol

well..so far in 2nd round...annika is back to top..while PC is +4 on the round..so far..
and good for cristie for bouncing back today with a 66

but its still too early


yea..PC has been targeting annika all year long...every single interview she had always mentioned that she's gonna de-throne annika next year and be #1 player..

i don't mind if she just go "i'm gonna work hard, and win lots and hopefully sit at top at the end of the season etc"...but i'm really annoyed that she likes to target the person/group

just like how she was like "europeans better get ready to get their arse kicked..and be prepared to lose." during the solheim cup........it would be better if she just go "we will win"...and i would have like her better.....tho she's lucky that she's good and has a lot of potential..so she's not just ALL talk....she can actually back it up by her actions...but...not everytime....but this over confident thingy..and staring others down like they are nothing..telling them that they are going down..doesn't suit my taste.. Uh, Creamer said the following: "All I can say is [Europe] better get ready, because they're going to get beat. I'm laying it down." But I would hardly expect AnnikaFan to present the facts here:). Frankly, I saw nothing wrong with Paula's behavior yesterday. It was late/dark, rainy, and Annika was being a pain in the arse. Her caddie was even worse. Frankly, I don't think Annika has been particularly sportsmanlike in her behavior all year long, and I can appreciate Paula's sentiments. Just because she's the best woman golfer in the world - and there's no question there - doesn't give her the right to do whatever she wants or call it any way. I particularly liked how she called Ground Under Repair in the Solheim?? cup - naw, couldn't have been that one - and it took another competitor to say, uh, that just looks like spike marks . . . In any case, she seems to always get herself into these situations, moreso than other golfers.

[AnnikaFan]

uh..yes..the quotes are wrong..but i used the word "like" to say that its somewhere along the lines of.... but they mean the same thing..to me anyways..

i don't see anything wrong with calling the ruling officials yesterday...going back from the tee or from the drop zone is a huge difference (tho annika didn't show that)..

and what do u mean always..this year is the only year where i see multiple contraversies from her..and I love it! Shows that she's not a softy and is not gonna get bossed around...i don't think its unsportsman like either..annika was making her case..its her ball..and the result was not clear.....i think pc is the one being unsportsmanlike..by turning her back, rolling her eyes, and go "WHAT!"..if she just shut her mouth...the issue would have solved much quicker..and she could have made a birdie..and perhaps have a better start today...like annika said "PC shouldn't have to worry, her ball was in the fairway.".....just by judging from the interviews between the two player..u can tell the difference between the 2 player's attitude...and PC's..was not a good one..tho she try to cover it...u can tell that's she's trying to accuse annika of cheating/lying...by using words like "her conscious", or "in my heart"..etc....i mean..if annika made a mistake, she'll be DQed...so creamer should be even happier!

..and also..annika's under the camera more than all the other players...other players can call in rule officials to see spike marks or what not..but its not shown on TV..

[el tigre]

Frankly, I don't think Annika has been particularly sportsmanlike in her behavior all year long, and I can appreciate Paula's sentiments. Just because she's the best woman golfer in the world - and there's no question there - doesn't give her the right to do whatever she wants or call it any way. I particularly liked how she called Ground Under Repair in the Solheim?? cup - naw, couldn't have been that one - and it took another competitor to say, uh, that just looks like spike marks . . . In any case, she seems to always get herself into these situations, moreso than other golfers. This is a competition with a lot at stake - not a casual Saturday morning round. Tour players take whatever relief they can get under the Rules. Paula would do the same, and nobody else on tour would think any less of her for doing so.

Smart, experienced players like Annika and TW know that there is no harm in asking a rules official for a favourable ruling. In golf you are ALWAYS better to ask for permission first rather than act first and beg for forgiveness later (a lesson Michelle Wie has just learned).

If you disagree with a ruling (like TW's infamous "a boulder is a loose impediment" situation), your displeasure should be aimed at the organization or official who gave the ruling rather than the player who asked for it.

i think pc is the one being unsportsmanlike..by turning her back, rolling her eyes, and go "WHAT!"..if she just shut her mouth...the issue would have solved much quicker..and she could have made a birdie..and perhaps have a better start today...like annika said "PC shouldn't have to worry, her ball was in the fairway."..... If Paula believed that Annika's ball travelled over water the entire time, then it is her duty as her marker and a fellow competitor to report that fact to Annika. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about that, and every player would prefer it so that these situations can be resolved immediately and the possibility of a DQ is taken out of the equation. When Annika did not agree with Paula, she asked a rules official for a ruling.

Everyone has their own opinion about whether Annika or PC's behavior was appropriate. But in terms of their actions during the play of the 18th hole, both players did exactly what they were supposed to do.

[milhaus]

But she tried to bully her way to a favorable call several times . . . She didn't say, "does that consititute ground under repair," or "Can I get relief for my natural shot shape to the green . . . " In the situation where she tried to get the official to give her relief from the sign, she was nasty, and totally wrong. She's trying to bully the official. She did that here as well . . . And so did her caddy. I don't have any problem with asking a rules official in to examine a situation, and clearly her situation called for one yesterday. But the whole idea of a rules official is for them to make the decision, not for the player to make the decision and have it approved by the rules official.

I used to think that golfers were so committed to fair play that they would always rule against themselves - take for example David Tom's DQing himself, Kevin Stadler calling the rules official over to check his bent club, etc. - but I guess not everyone has such high moral standards. In that case, it's really the rules official's job to make the decision. And El Tigre, the key point is "under the rules." Perhaps not as clear in this case, but it was certainly clear in the case where she complained about relief from the sign . . .

[AnnikaFan]

If Paula believed that Annika's ball travelled over water the entire time, then it is her duty as her marker and a fellow competitor to report that fact to Annika. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about that, and every player would prefer it so that these situations can be resolved immediately and the possibility of a DQ is taken out of the equation. When Annika did not agree with Paula, she asked a rules official for a ruling.

Everyone has their own opinion about whether Annika or PC's behavior was appropriate. But in terms of their actions during the play of the 18th hole, both players did exactly what they were supposed to do. fair enough

i just didn't like her actions that surrounds the situation..turning her back, rolling her eyes, going "WHAT!??!" and what she said in her interview

pretty nasty to me as well

But she tried to bully her way to a favorable call several times . . . She didn't say, "does that consititute ground under repair," or "Can I get relief for my natural shot shape to the green . . . " In the situation where she tried to get the official to give her relief from the sign, she was nasty, and totally wrong. She's trying to bully the official. She did that here as well . . . And so did her caddy. I don't have any problem with asking a rules official in to examine a situation, and clearly her situation called for one yesterday. But the whole idea of a rules official is for them to make the decision, not for the player to make the decision and have it approved by the rules official.

I used to think that golfers were so committed to fair play that they would always rule against themselves - take for example David Tom's DQing himself, Kevin Stadler calling the rules official over to check his bent club, etc. - but I guess not everyone has such high moral standards. In that case, it's really the rules official's job to make the decision. And El Tigre, the key point is "under the rules." Perhaps not as clear in this case, but it was certainly clear in the case where she complained about relief from the sign . . . so?!?! its not like the officials were for her all the time..if she got denied, she forget it about it the next second and moved on..

and calling out annika as having low moral? are u accusing her cheating and lying?!?! she didn't do anything wrong! (where as david and tom did..oh wait..i seem to remember tom showing the finger to the fans...). Last time i checked, her peers all thought she is one of the classiest lady.

i mean, u can say the same for PC then...she's trying to take this to her advantage and hope that annika will go back and re-tee to increase her score especially since she clearly didn't like the result....

[milhaus]

(where as david and tom did..oh wait..i seem to remember tom showing the finger to the fans...). .
Who is David and Tom? And my comment was directed towards Tigres comment that "this is not a Saturday round" and tour players always look for the way that rules benefit them . . . not true, many of them stand by the letter of the rules and if there is any doubt one way or another, as in the case with Annika, they take the route that is worse for them, to be sure about it.

David Toms said his conscience wouldn't let him sleep at night because he thought the ball might have been moving - the video shows pretty conclusively that it wasn't, but he DQed himself regardless.