Golf Myth-ology

[Shadow]

In another thread there was some discussion about graphite shafts being useful for only slow swingers, about grips having an influence on the way we swing and about distance from a single axis(Natural Golf) being less.

IMO, these are myths that somehow get passed on and distort our ability to become more knowledgable about the reality of the game that we all love. There are dozens of these myths out there about golf that perhaps could be mentioned and discussed, and perhaps our understanding of the truth could be enhanced. While opinions will certainly vary, it would me interesting to see just how others think.

For example, regarding graphite shafts being for slow swingers only, I recently did some shaft profiling of a number of "Stiff" shafts. I measured the frequency of a shaft in 7 places ranging from 11" to 41", by using a frequency analyser and a 550 g tip weight. I then compared these results for a number of graphite "S" shafts to the ever popular True Temper Dynamic Golf S300 shaft, a shaft used by a lot of good players with high swing speeds. Please note that the higher the frequency, cpm's or cycles per minute, the stiffer the shaft.

Here are the results:
Distance from tip- 11" 16" 21" 26" 31" 36" 41"
Average graphite- 651 435 319 250 207 179 160
Dynamic Gold S300- 615 388 281 232 197 173 153

It is quite clear that the True temper steel shaft is a more flexible shaft, particularly in the tip area, than the average of the "S" graphite shafts tested, putting to bed the myth that graphite shafts are for slower swingers.

Do you have any other myths? How about, "Power in a golf swing comes from the hips or the body?"

[Tintin]

Interesting stuff. Did you ever look into Chuck silco's frequency matching software?

http://home.att.net/~fsmatching/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

[Special_K]

I think "keeping your head down" is another one of those things that is frequently misunderstood and yet you hear it all the time at the driving range when Buddy 1 is trying to teach Buddy 2.

[Michael]

In another thread there was some discussion about graphite shafts being useful for only slow swingers, about grips having an influence on the way we swing and about distance from a single axis(Natural Golf) being less.

IMO, these are myths that somehow get passed on and distort our ability to become more knowledgable about the reality of the game that we all love. There are dozens of these myths out there about golf that perhaps could be mentioned and discussed, and perhaps our understanding of the truth could be enhanced. While opinions will certainly vary, it would me interesting to see just how others think.

For example, regarding graphite shafts being for slow swingers only, I recently did some shaft profiling of a number of "Stiff" shafts. I measured the frequency of a shaft in 7 places ranging from 11" to 41", by using a frequency analyser and a 550 g tip weight. I then compared these results for a number of graphite "S" shafts to the ever popular True Temper Dynamic Golf S300 shaft, a shaft used by a lot of good players with high swing speeds. Please note that the higher the frequency, cpm's or cycles per minute, the stiffer the shaft.

Here are the results:
Distance from tip- 11" 16" 21" 26" 31" 36" 41"
Average graphite- 651 435 319 250 207 179 160
Dynamic Gold S300- 615 388 281 232 197 173 153

It is quite clear that the True temper steel shaft is a more flexible shaft, particularly in the tip area, than the average of the "S" graphite shafts tested, putting to bed the myth that graphite shafts are for slower swingers.

Do you have any other myths? How about, "Power in a golf swing comes from the hips or the body?"
Hi Shadow,
I'm quite interested, can you explain some of the stuff above in simpler terms? In particular these parts:
I measured the frequency of a shaft in 7 places ranging from 11" to 41", by using a frequency analyser and a 550 g tip weight. Distance from tip- 11" 16" 21" 26" 31" 36" 41" 651 435 319 250 207 179 160 and 615 388 281 232 197 173 153

[Tintin]

Michael. If interested got to http://www.csfa.com/ Then click on tech notes then click on zone frequency measurements.

[Ego Woods]

Do you have any other myths? How about, "Power in a golf swing comes from the hips or the body?"
Good thread.....what about low compression golf balls? I've always thought that these balls are for golfers with moderate to lower swing speeds......

[Special_K]

Good thread.....what about low compression golf balls? I've always thought that these balls are for golfers with moderate to lower swing speeds......
Hmm...I would say this one is kinda true. There is a point where you would lose distance if your swing speed was too fast, meaning all the energy is going into compressing the ball versus distance (e.g., Tiger shoudn't be hitting a Precept Laddie for instance).

In cold weather, however, it is more beneficial to use lower compression balls!

[Michael]

Michael. If interested got to http://www.csfa.com/ Then click on tech notes then click on zone frequency measurements.i went to that page, i don't see anything explaining measurement.

[Shadow]

i went to that page, i don't see anything explaining measurement.
Michael,

My frequency analyser requires me to clamp one end of a golf shaft, add a weight to the tip and then to oscillate the shaft up and down. The oscillating shaft breaks a beam of light and actually coverts this motion to a specific number of cycles per minute, a cycle going from down to up and back to down again. With golf shafts, the stiffer the shaft is, the higher number of cpm's.

Now, when I first clamp the shaft I have a measured 41" of the shaft showing from the clamp to the tip of the shaft. I measure the frequency. I then adjust the amount of shaft showing to 36" and take another measurement. I continue this until 11" of shaft from the clamp to the tip is showing. At this point, the shaft vibrates very rapidly when twanged. As my frequency device only measure to 1000 cpm's, any shorter length of shaft showing would be impossible to measure.

After taking measurements at 41", 36", 31", 26", 21", 16" and 11", I now know how stiff the shaft is at different points along the shaft. This is called a profile of the shaft. I can take similar measurements of other golf shafts and now make comparisons of one shaft to another, or of one shaft to an average of all the shafts. The numbers that I have listed above represent the actual number of vibrations or cycles per minute, that the True Temper Dynamic Gold S300 has, compared to the other "Stiff" shafts that I measured. For example, the average stiff shaft vibrated at 651 cpm's when 11" of shaft was showing, while the TT shaft vibrated at only 615 cpm's. This shows that the tip end of the TT shaft is a lot more flexible than the average of the graphite shafts that I have measured, and a softer tip end will cause the ball to fly higher. In the middle of the shaft(26") the average graphite was 250 cpm's to the TT's 232, and at the butt end the graphite was 160cpm's and the TT 153 cpm's, which is quite close.

For a long time now clubmakers have been frequency matching shafts in a set of irons for example. The frequency that was used was the butt frequency only, ie., the 160 number above to the 153. However, as you can see the biggest difference in frequency comes at the tip end and that has more influence on the ball flight than the frequency at the butt end.

While shaft profiling is still in its infancy stage, clubmakers will be able to fit you with a set of shafts for your new custom made set, based on the profile of the shafts as they relate to your swing characteristics. This will simple make your clubs match your swing better, and should result in your being a more consistent player.

The process of shaft profiling is very a exciting development in golf clubmaking, as is the concept of MOI(Moment of Inertia) matching of clubs versus the soon to be archaic swing weighting method. Once you have swung an MOI matched set of clubs, you would have difficulty going back to a SW matched set, but that is a topic for another thread.

[Shadow]

I think "keeping your head down" is another one of those things that is frequently misunderstood and yet you hear it all the time at the driving range when Buddy 1 is trying to teach Buddy 2. or on the course when someone misses a shot they say, "I must have lifted my head," when in fact they straightened both of their legs as they came through.

The only golfers who can lift their heads and play well are Annika Sorenstam and David Duval. :)

[Tintin]

i went to that page, i don't see anything explaining measurement.
Here:




ZONE FREQUENCY MEASUREMENTS

TECH NOTE 36: Zone frequency profiling of a shaft has become a significant subject of interest lately. Two shafts with the same butt frequency might play totally differently because if variations in tip stiffness. Originally, zone profiling was done by sliding the butt deeper and deeper into the clamp. Of course as you do this, the frequency continues to go up and up. At some point you get beyond the capability of the analyzer. Especially since a 205 gram tip weight was typically used. To overcome this at some point the shaft was simply turned around and a small weight attached to the butt. The resulting data always looked a little weird to me. You had a series of points with increasing frequencies and a final point (the tip measurement) that was a very much lower frequency. With the change in test weight and flipping the shaft around the data always appeared to be a comparison of apples and oranges. In Tech Note 31 (http://www.csfa.com/tech31.htm) I described an approach of computing the ratio of tip to butt frequency which at the time seemed a pretty reasonable approach to me. Unfortunately there was serious flaw in my thinking (not the first time).

UNIDIRECTIONAL APPROACH
Recently I was looking at Tom Wishon's site and I noticed he was doing zone measurements all in one direction with a very heavy tip weight to keep the frequencies form getting too high. A light bulb finally went on in my head and I realized there was a fatal flaw in tip frequency measurements. The weight of the shaft itself becomes a very significant influence on frequency. Two shafts with identical tip stiffness might have tip frequencies as much as 15 cpm different just because one is a heavy shaft and one a light shaft. In Tech Note 31 (http://www.csfa.com/tech31.htm) you'll note many of the steel shafts appear to be tip weak. This is really not the case. They're just heavy. In Tech Note 1 (http://www.csfa.com/tech1.htm) you'll see the frequency is inversely proportional to the tip weight and 0.23 times the weight of the shaft. The multiplier, 0.23, is the value for a uniform rod. The shaft of course is tapered so the number is not really correct. Computing this number is too tough for me so I measured it. If you measure the tip frequency with two different tip weights, say one of 50 grams and the other say 75 and knowing the weight of the shaft the unknown multiplier an easily be computed. It turned out to be .30 for a typical shaft. The effective weight of a steel shaft might be 50 +.30x125 or about 88 grams. A light weight graphite shaft might be 50+.30x50 or 65 grams. The ratio of these two weights is 1.33. The square root (see equation in Tech Note 1 (http://www.csfa.com/tech1.htm) again) is 1.15. This means that in tip frequency measurements of the graphite shaft weight becomes 15% higher just due to its light weight. Therefore table in Tech Note 31 (http://www.csfa.com/tech31.htm) is not truly a representation of tip stiffness unless the two shafts weigh nearly the same.

TESTING
With all this in mind I did some zone profiling the way Wishon described on his site (I also noted in Golfsmith's new catalog they are doing the same thing. The old technique of flipping the shaft around with a 50 gram weight on the butt seems to be dead…and rightly so.) I first wanted to see just how short of a beam length I could get to and still get reasonable readings with a Club Scout. Frequencies up over 900 cpm were not a problem which equated to beam lengths of under 10". (It should be mentioned that a shaft vibrating at high frequency with a heavy weight on its tip is under quite a strain. Ultra light weight shaft can break under these zone tests. I've never broken shafts down in the 60 gram range but those in the 50 gram range or less can present a problem.) The vibration amplitude is pretty small and it was hard to get a beam break with the body of the shaft itself. The shaft simply couldn't be twanged enough to get the shaft to pass above and below the light beam. I attached a little 1/8" rod to the back of the 454 gram tip weight and broke the beam with the small rod. This solved that problem.

I zone profiled a few different shafts and the results were quite interesting. See Chart 1 below.

As the beam length got shorter and shorter it was easy to see a tip weak shaft profile drop below a tip stiff shaft even though they started very close together. One of the subtle problems that arises is the wide range of frequencies involved. They might range form as low as 150 cpm to well over 700 cpm. When plotted, this makes small changes in frequency hard to visualize. It would be nice if there were some standard profile the data could be compared against. Differencing the data with the standard would greatly expand the profile.

I took a PC50 shaft at random that was pretty tip stiff and just called it my "reference shaft". I generated its zone profile and then referenced all the other shafts against it. I did this by just subtracting the PC50 frequency data from the other shaft data. This basically greatly expands the plots. See Chart 2 below.

Little idiosyncrasies of the shafts now become very apparent. It would be nice if the industry could come up with some standard profile to reference all the shafts against. Another approach if you're just comparing two shafts is to subtract one from another. I did this with an SK Fiber Lite Revolution and their new Lite Revolution II. When plotted in this fashion the differences are quite obvious. The mid section of the Lite Rev.II was very much stiffer which was their intent.

http://www.csfa.com/images/tn36_ch1.gif Chart 1


http://www.csfa.com/images/tn36_ch2.gif Chart 2
CLAMPING
At very short beam lengths there is quite a bit a force on the clamping system. This is caused of course by the very heavy weight oscillating at a very high frequency. I played around with different clamping configurations and found a pretty significant variation in short beam length readings. Using a Club Scout with the slip clutch centered over the V blocks as it normally is, produced a short beam length reading of 573cpm. With the torque screw moved forward 5/8" the reading increased to 583cpm. I then built a pneumatic clamp with two air cylinders. One positioned ¾" from the front end of the clamping base the other ¾" from the rear of the base. This allowed for more uniform pressure over the entire length of the clamping surface. The readings were 2 to 3 cpm higher than the Club Scout clamp with the forward positioned torque screw. Is 2 or 3 cpm important? I really don't know. I haven't seen or generated enough data to get a feel for what's important. In terms of tip stiffness measurements maybe 5 or 10 cpm is insignificant. I also built a Club Scout clamp with two slip clutches mounted for and aft like the pneumatic clamp. It gave the same results as the pneumatic clamp.

The variations in frequency due to clamping might be a problem in comparing data generated by different clubmakers although I don't think these differences are too significant.

UNIVERSAL ZONE FREQUENCY TIP WEIGHT
As mentioned Wishon's testing has been done with a 454 brass tip wt. of unknown dimensions. Golfsmith is using a 615 gram weight and I've been using a 454 gram steel tip weight. Because of the weight differences and the possible center of gravity difference between the brass and steel 454 gram weights the data from various source may not be easily comparable. (Corrections for the weight and cg differences could be made but it's a little messy.) To achieve transportability of test data it would be nice if the industry could (for once ) come up with a standard tip weight. The Professional Clubmakers Society is trying to do just that. A modestly priced drill chuck has been found that weighs about 590 grams. I used the chuck and must admit it's much easier to use that my 454 gram weight. It has a further advantage. The chuck provides three bearing surfaces about an inch long that hold the shaft. My tip weight is attached with a 1/4x20 bolt. Even though the end of the bolt is polished it does put a small mark in the paint on the shaft tip and a lot of pressure on a single point of contact. About a dozen of these chucks have been purchased for testing purposes. Unfortunately they vary in weight by as much as 10 or 15 grams. The back of these chucks is quite soft therefore the heavier chucks have been shaved down on the lathe to 590 grams. Because of its high weight those analyzers that don't extend to the 999cpm range would still be quite usable in zone testing.

I will still offer the 454 gram weight but will also offer the 590 gram drill chuck as well or else it may be available form the PCS. This issue is still being discussed.

[Tintin]

Michael. There is another way of doing shaft profiling. Read on if interested:

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/profiling.php?ref

[Shadow]

Michael. There is another way of doing shaft profiling. Read on if interested:

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/profiling.php?ref
The plans for the NF4 are being finalized and soon those of us who are into this shaft stuff will be busy making this device.

To this point we have had an NF1 and an NF2, the latter being a shaft matcher and to a lesser extent a spine or bend finder. :)

NF stands for Neufinder, named in part after the gentleman who initially invented the device, Dan Neubecker.

I am anxious to make the NF4, profile the same shafts that I used my frequency analyser with, and compare the graphs results. The neat thing about the NF4 will be its ability to take the actual weight of the shaft out of the equation, when making a profile.

So much to do, so little time.

[Michael]

hmm, i didn't read though ALL of that, but I did read most, but from what I read, I don't see how that information says that graphite shafts aren't for slower swingers.

[Shadow]

hmm, i didn't read though ALL of that, but I did read most, but from what I read, I don't see how that information says that graphite shafts aren't for slower swingers.
It is a myth that stiff steel shafts are better for fast swingers just as it is a myth that graphite shafts are for slow swingers. There are steel and graphite shafts suitable for all golfers.

[Michael]

@Shadow

I see. I just thought that from the data above I would understand that there are steel and graphite shafts suitable for all golfers....

So does this hold true for both woods and irons? So is there fast swinging men that use graphite shaft irons?

[Jaydog]

KJ Choi, i remember seeing him use graphite shafts on his irons.

[Andru]

When a primitive hunter threw a spear at his prey, you better believe he followed through and finished with his weight on his left foot. Reverse pivots in the jungle could be fatal. That saber-toothed tiger would eat you. Any throwing motion requires a weight shift to the left. Stone Age man realized that. Millions of years later, poor golfers do not. - Jackie Burke

More Golf misconceptions

- The longer you look at a putting line. The easier the putt.
- A draw will put top spin in the ball.
- Talking a 2 club drop from the point of entry when the ball is OB or Lost is OK.
- 3 irons are meant to fly low and hot.
- "I average 300 yard drives" I know, we've ALL heard this one. :)

Cheers

[Shadow]

@Shadow

I see. I just thought that from the data above I would understand that there are steel and graphite shafts suitable for all golfers....

So does this hold true for both woods and irons? So is there fast swinging men that use graphite shaft irons?

Scott Verplank. Use the UST Tour Weight(100g) shafts. Greg Norman went to graphite irons at one point. Perhaps others. I don't know.

[Shadow]

More Golf misconceptions
- A draw will put top spin in the ball.

There are people who really believe that golfers put top spin on some of their low flying or drawing shots.

You put top spin on the ball when you top it, otherwise you put back spin on it.

[Shadow]

As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists
-roll your forearms
-uncock your wrists
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst.
-swing inside out
-swing inside to inside
-take club back low and slow
-take club straight back
-fold the right arm on the backswing
-keep the left arm straight
-keep the right elbow close to the side
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-turn the shoulders
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45*
-keep your head down
-shift weight to back foot on backswing
-shift weight to front foot on through swing
-drive legs forward on DS
-stay behind the ball
-drive left shoulder up
-hit against a firm left side
-shift hip laterally on the DS
-rotate body to target
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing

[Jaydog]

As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists
-roll your forearms
-uncock your wrists
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst.
-swing inside out
-swing inside to inside
-take club back low and slow
-take club straight back
-fold the right arm on the backswing
-keep the left arm straight
-keep the right elbow close to the side
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-turn the shoulders
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45*
-keep your head down
-shift weight to back foot on backswing
-shift weight to front foot on through swing
-drive legs forward on DS
-stay behind the ball
-drive left shoulder up
-hit against a firm left side
-shift hip laterally on the DS
-rotate body to target
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing

hey shadow..i'm kinda of a newbie but i thought some of those that you listed were not myths like the ones i marked red.

can you explain those to me please.

[Ems]

I'm shocked that these two are myths because I'm constantly told to do this.
- Keep head down
- Keep left arm straight

and the latter one never made sense to me (even though I hear it a lot) because when I watched others swing, their arms slightly bends as they bring up the club higher... I thought instructors didn't mean completely straight, but relatively straighter than the other arm.

[Shadow]

I'm shocked that these two are myths because I'm constantly told to do this.
- Keep head down
- Keep left arm straight

and the latter one never made sense to me (even though I hear it a lot) because when I watched others swing, their arms slightly bends as they bring up the club higher... I thought instructors didn't mean completely straight, but relatively straighter than the other arm. You don't keep the head down, the head is kept down because as you start the downswing, you arms hit DOWN on the ball, with ALL clubs. I challenge anyone to consciously hit down on the ball, and at the same time, consciously lift your head. If the head lifts, it is because the legs and torso straighten, and the contact with the ball will be a skull, top or behind the ball.

I agree with your description of the left arm. A slight flex is ideaL. Rock rigid straight, leads to tension, and may result in the arms not being able to complete their backward motion, or, when the straight arm gets to the top, to relieve the tension, it bends, and a whole host of problems could then occur.

[Shadow]

hey shadow..i'm kinda of a newbie but i thought some of those that you listed were not myths like the ones i marked red.
can you explain those to me please. COCK YOUR WRISTS: Hold your left hand straight out in front of you, with you thumb sticking straight up. Grab the thumb with your right hand and pull back towards your chest. Allow your wrist to flex. That is a cocking of the left wrist. In the golf swing the left wrist cocks, but the right one does not. The right wrist BENDS backward. There is a proper name for it, which escapes me at this time. As you come down and through to the ball, the left wrist goes from cocked to neutral and back to cocked again in the through swing. Uncocked means that it would flex downward towards the ground, the opposite of pulling your thumb backwards. This should not happen.

ROLL YOUR FOREARMS: If you do what I described above, the forearms will not roll over, and should not roll over. Rolling over would normally lead to a disatrous hook

SWING INSIDE OUT: As your hands are the only part of the body in contact with the club, it is virtually impossible to swing them inside, out and across the target line. While the clubhead moves from inside to the ball/target line, the hands do not. In fact, when the hands are in front of your right thigh in the downswing, the club shaft is parallel to the target line, but well inside it. At this point the hands start coming around sharply inside on the through swing. They do not go down the line. You would think then that if the hands come around inside from just before impact, the the club head would, too, and you would pull or hook it, but, the club head keeps moving out to the ball.

I could show you in a couple of seconds, but trying to describe this in words to create a proper image for you is tough. I hope you understand.

[Mule56]

COCK YOUR WRISTS: The right wrist BENDS backward. There is a proper name for it, which escapes me at this time.
Hey Shadow,
The term your looking for is supination causing the palm to face upwards. Pronation is would be the opposite thus causing the palm to face down.
Mule

[Shadow]

Hey Shadow,
The term your looking for is supination causing the palm to face upwards. Pronation is would be the opposite thus causing the palm to face down.
Mule
I actually looked this stuff up.

The cocking of the left wrist, as I described above, is called wrist abduction. If the wrist gets uncocked, it is called wrist adduction.

The bending of the right wrist backwards is called wrist extension. If you were to bend the wrist forwards it's called wrist flexion.

If your left hand is extended in front of you with the palm down and then you rotate it counter clockwise 180* so that the palm is up, it's called radial-ulnar supination.
If you start with your palm up and rotate it 180* clockwise, it's called radial-ulnar pronation.

So, when the golfer takes the club to the top of his backswing, he abducts the left wrist and extends the right wrist. However, if supination is the rolling over of the hands coming through, ie., left palm from palm down to palm up, bad things will happen. I know, Hogan used to "supinate" his left wrist. But not by definition.:)There will be a test next week.

[Jaydog]

[color=red]COCK YOUR WRISTS:
Hold your left hand straight out in front of you, with you thumb sticking straight up. Grab the thumb with your right hand and pull back towards your chest. Allow your wrist to flex. That is a cocking of the left wrist. In the golf swing the left wrist cocks, but the right one does not. The right wrist BENDS backward. There is a proper name for it, which escapes me at this time. As you come down and through to the ball, the left wrist goes from cocked to neutral and back to cocked again in the through swing. Uncocked means that it would flex downward towards the ground, the opposite of pulling your thumb backwards. This should not happen.


my mistake...i now see that your point was wrists. confusion cleared up on this point.


ROLL YOUR FOREARMS:
If you do what I described above, the forearms will not roll over, and should not roll over. Rolling over would normally lead to a disatrous hook

[color=Red]SWING INSIDE OUT: As your hands are the only part of the body in contact with the club, it is virtually impossible to swing them inside, out and across the target line. While the clubhead moves from inside to the ball/target line, the hands do not. In fact, when the hands are in front of your right thigh in the downswing, the club shaft is parallel to the target line, but well inside it. At this point the hands start coming around sharply inside on the through swing. They do not go down the line. You would think then that if the hands come around inside from just before impact, the the club head would, too, and you would pull or hook it, but, the club head keeps moving out to the ball.

I could show you in a couple of seconds, but trying to describe this in words to create a proper image for you is tough. I hope you understand.



thanks for the clarification, shadow. if the meet and greet does happen in the new year and you attend, i will definitely take you up on the offer. :help:

i guess the main point of golf myths is that there are so many out there that are repeated so often new players who don't know any better accept them as truths.

unwittingly, they pass on what they think are good pointers and the cycle viciously repeats. i've heard instructors and seasoned players use many of the terms listed as myths when helping others.

i am starting to realize the value of a good instructor now.

[Shadow]

If the golf instructors cannot get it right, how can we mortals ever get the truth?

Was chatting today with a former CPGA "Teacher of the Year" about the "cocking" of the wrists and he told me of the story of giving a seminar at the annual golf show here, explaining that the left wrist cocks and the right wrist bends. In the wings was another former CPGA "Teacher of the Year," listening attentively. When the next pro got on stage, he informed everyone that the right wrist does not bend, that it cocks, too. This does not happen. One gentleman's sole motivation is to make golfers better, while the other is solely ego driven.

I would rather know the truth and not understand it, than know the BS and think it's right.

[joppy]

As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists
-roll your forearms
-uncock your wrists
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst.
-swing inside out
-swing inside to inside
-take club back low and slow
-take club straight back
-fold the right arm on the backswing
-keep the left arm straight
-keep the right elbow close to the side
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-turn the shoulders
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45*
-keep your head down
-shift weight to back foot on backswing
-shift weight to front foot on through swing
-drive legs forward on DS
-stay behind the ball
-drive left shoulder up
-hit against a firm left side
-shift hip laterally on the DS
-rotate body to target
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing

Can someone explain why all these are myths? I have been pacticing my swing based on some of these.

[TourIQ]

Interesting stuff. Did you ever look into Chuck silco's frequency matching software?
http://home.att.net/~fsmatching/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
Hi Tintin

2 years ago I helped Chuck for about 3 weeks offering product enhancement ideas.

The process of shaft profiling is very a exciting development in golf clubmaking, as is the concept of MOI(Moment of Inertia) matching of clubs versus the soon to be archaic swing weighting method. Once you have swung an MOI matched set of clubs, you would have difficulty going back to a SW matched set, but that is a topic for another thread.
Hi Shadow

I seen this on another forum recently ...

As you get more and more into shaft profiling, you'll also find that there are shafts with identical bend profiles that feel and play nothing like one another ... It's a fun part of trying to understand the golf shaft. There is one problem with the data set - at least the last time I saw
it - shafts are profiled in very small "sets" and generally from the same run from the manufacturer. I have 50 different shafts profiled in the same model and flex from a very well known shaft company. These shafts were purchased from different sources, a just a few at a time. They profile into nearly 6 different shafts - very, VERY different shaft profiles. You can't even average them, and the profile in the database is not really representative of the shafts that I have either. Consistency or a very large sample size are needed to get a picture of how weak or poor a shaft profile may be as a representation of a particular shaft model and flex. Tim's from MyOstrichGolf

[ebaj1]

As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists
-roll your forearms
-uncock your wrists
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst.
-swing inside out
-swing inside to inside
-take club back low and slow
-take club straight back
-fold the right arm on the backswing
-keep the left arm straight
-keep the right elbow close to the side
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-turn the shoulders
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45*
-keep your head down
-shift weight to back foot on backswing
-shift weight to front foot on through swing
-drive legs forward on DS
-stay behind the ball
-drive left shoulder up
-hit against a firm left side
-shift hip laterally on the DS
-rotate body to target
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing

:rofl: OMG, that's just about everything that most golfers hear from some teaching pros, buddies, wives....:rofl:

[golf nut]

In another thread there was some discussion about graphite shafts being useful for only slow swingers, about grips having an influence on the way we swing and about distance from a single axis(Natural Golf) being less.

IMO, these are myths that somehow get passed on and distort our ability to become more knowledgable about the reality of the game that we all love. There are dozens of these myths out there about golf that perhaps could be mentioned and discussed, and perhaps our understanding of the truth could be enhanced. While opinions will certainly vary, it would me interesting to see just how others think.

For example, regarding graphite shafts being for slow swingers only, I recently did some shaft profiling of a number of "Stiff" shafts. I measured the frequency of a shaft in 7 places ranging from 11" to 41", by using a frequency analyser and a 550 g tip weight. I then compared these results for a number of graphite "S" shafts to the ever popular True Temper Dynamic Golf S300 shaft, a shaft used by a lot of good players with high swing speeds. Please note that the higher the frequency, cpm's or cycles per minute, the stiffer the shaft.

Here are the results:
Distance from tip- 11" 16" 21" 26" 31" 36" 41"
Average graphite- 651 435 319 250 207 179 160
Dynamic Gold S300- 615 388 281 232 197 173 153

It is quite clear that the True temper steel shaft is a more flexible shaft, particularly in the tip area, than the average of the "S" graphite shafts tested, putting to bed the myth that graphite shafts are for slower swingers.
When you perrfomed this test approximately how far did the tip move compared to the butt.

[Big Shooter]

2004 data (see original post), is this still applicable?

[Golf_Goof]

Excellent thread Shadow. I haven't seen one on your list I disagree with. Its going to open some eyes as some have chimed in already. This stuff gets regurgitated year-in and year-out and it needs to stop.

I love the saying about keeping your head down (one of the posters has it in their sig) "The pro tells you to keep your head down so you won't see him laughing!"

How bout these:

1) The ball gets trapped between the clubface and the turf causing more spin.

2) The clubhead travels "down the target line" for any period of time.

3) An acceptable amount of time for a round of golf is 4 1/2 hrs.

[guitarman]

How bout these:

1) The ball gets trapped between the clubface and the turf causing more spin.

2) The clubhead travels "down the target line" for any period of time.

3) An acceptable amount of time for a round of golf is 4 1/2 hrs.

Whats wrong with number 3?

[Golf_Goof]

Whats wrong with number 3?

It should/could be an hour less. Well, lets start with 1/2 an hour.

[LowPost42]

2004 data (see original post), is this still applicable?

The data will not 'jive' with modern profiling numbers as the standard weight is a 454g weight, 40mm long with a 10mm bore through.

[guitarman]

It should/could be an hour less. Well, lets start with 1/2 an hour.

Having partaken in past threads that dealt with this subject I was under the impression that 4 hours was the standard acceptable round. 4 1/2 is the starting point to start complaining about the round getting long. Myself, I don't mind a 4 hour round. I've even had some rounds that were 5 hours, due to course backups, that I didn't mind.
Lets face it. If you're on a course thats so busy that its taking a while to get through, the choices are easy. Storm off and try to get some money back. Enjoy the chance for good conversation and joking with the guys in your foursome. Enjoy the scenery.
I've played a few 3 1/2 hour rounds with a foursome that were enjoyable. I don't think I've ever done the 3 hour round with a foursome. Unless it was an executive course. And I'm pretty fast. You can ask anyone thats played with me. I usually run and I spend about 10 seconds looking for lost balls. To me 4 to 4 1/2 rounds are completely acceptable. I don't go out to golf to see how fast I can complete the round. If there were never anyone in front of me and the guys in my group liked to run and not look for lost balls then I could probably finish rounds in 2 1/2 hours. But thats unrealistic. So instead of getting all worked up like some of the ranting losers on golf courses I just accept it.

[sliceisnice]

:$ There goes a couple of driving range hrs wasted( with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball) know wonder i could not get the hang of it.now i have to remeber who tired to teach me this! now what do i do :confused:

[Golf_Goof]

Having partaken in past threads that dealt with this subject I was under the impression that 4 hours was the standard acceptable round.

Lets not jack a great thread. It's more my opinion than a myth anyhow :D.

[Samick]

I actually had to stop reading this thread for a second..my head was starting to hurt. Looking at this though, I should be doing whats highlighted?


As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists
- dont cock the wrists
-roll your forearms
-dont roll the forearms
-uncock your wrists
-dont uncock the wrists
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball
-use a weak grip to hit a draw
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball
-use a strong grip to hit a fade
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst.
-collapse the hands/arms immediately after impact
-swing inside out
-swing outside in
-swing inside to inside
-swing outside to outside...wait a minute..
-take club back low and slow
-take club back steep and fast
-take club straight back
-take club back....curvy? (see second and third up from here...weird)
-fold the right arm on the backswing
-keep right arm straight on backswing
-keep the left arm straight
-keep left arm bent
-keep the right elbow close to the side
-let right elbow fly away....but if its straight like above...uuuhhh
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-uuhhh....uuummmm
-turn the shoulders
-dont turn your shoulders
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45*
-turn your shoulders less than 90*, and your hips more than 45*? Thought you werent supposed to turn those shoulders?? What the...
-keep your head down
-Lift your head (hot babe at 2 o'clock!)
-shift weight to back foot on backswing
-shift weight to front foot on backswing (Stack & Tilt...is that you?)
-shift weight to front foot on through swing
-shift weight to back foot on through swing (reverse pivot! Where have you been the last 20 years!?)
-drive legs forward on DS
-keep legs as quiet as possible on downswing (clinch butt cheeks while at it....carefull.....CAREFULL!!)
-stay behind the ball
-get ahead of the ball (with no driving legs?)
-drive left shoulder up
-keep left shoulder down
-hit against a firm left side
- collapse that left side like a jellyfish I say.
-shift hip laterally on the DS
-dont shift hips laterally on the downswing (kinda hard when my legs and feet are in concrete)
-rotate body to target
-do not...I repeat NOT rotate your body to the target. You'll crack a hip I tell ya!
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing
-Power in the Pinky Toe people...don't forget it!!


:D

[dekker]

I can't reiterate this often enough. If you want to find out how the wrists work or should work,download the free Tom Tomasello swing files from the Peter Croker site. Tom cuts through the bullshit like no other instructor.

[Samick]

I can't reiterate this often enough. If you want to find out how the wrists work or should work,download the free Tom Tomasello swing files from the Peter Croker site. Tom cuts through the bullshit like no other instructor.

Pretty cool actually....perfect for me...videos so I dont have to read! :D

http://www.crokergolf.com/TT_Downloads.htm

[swaaain]

Shadow,

Where did you pull this list from? Some of the items mentioned I truely believe are not myths at all. Also, please provide us with the reason why you are such a Professional with the golf swing?

Thank you



As the thread is dying, let me add a few other myths, just to get some folks thinking:
-cock your wrists Agree
-roll your forearms Agree, but it happens naturally in the swing
-uncock your wrists Agree, the wrists do cock
-with a weak grip you will fade the ball disagree, I will post a video on the near future, with my proof
-with a strong grip your will hook the ball disagree, I will post a video on the near future, with my proof
-extend your hands/arms "down the line" Second worst. disagree, but it is in the wording of it
-swing inside out again, in the wording, I understand the meaning
-swing inside to inside agree
-take club back low and slow again, it is in the wording
-take club straight back agree
-fold the right arm on the backswing agree
-keep the left arm straight agree, there is a slight bow
-keep the right elbow close to the side, it has to move a slight bit off the body
-practice creates "muscle memory." The absolute worst!
-turn the shoulders again this happens naturally
-turn shoulders 90* and the hips 45* not eveyone can get to this point
-keep your head down your head has to move throughout the golf swing, it is physically imposible
-shift weight to back foot on backswing your weight should naturally move, but not all of it.that leads to a reverse pivot.
-shift weight to front foot on through swing again, your weight must move to your lead side
-drive legs forward on DS where is forward
-stay behind the ball what is behind the ball
-drive left shoulder up agree???????WTF is up
-hit against a firm left side again, it is in the wording, you do not want anything to break down through impact, the position looks firm
-shift hip laterally on the DS the hip rotates through, not a latteral shift
-rotate body to target again in the wording, your hips rotate, followed by the shoulders, and finish towards the target
-large muscles provide the power in a golf swing They play a small part, it is mostly derived from your core

[racmbs]

I actually had to stop reading this thread for a second..my head was starting to hurt. Looking at this though, I should be doing whats highlighted?




:D

+2....and I'm interested now myself in knowing what credentials Shadow carries as it's never been discussed. I see a lot of criticism on the golf swing from someone who hasn't once demonstrated why we should even believe him.

[The Troll]

+2....and I'm interested now myself in knowing what credentials Shadow carries as it's never been discussed. I see a lot of criticism on the golf swing from someone who hasn't once demonstrated why we should even believe him.

+3.... :cool:

[rgk5]

I'm VERY curious as well.

[racmbs]

+4...my wife isn't a big golfer, but even his post confused the crap out of her. :rofl:

[golf nut]

Excellent thread Shadow.

Huh?...

[Golf_Goof]

Huh?...

Great
(good, excellent, outstanding, etc.),


thread
(discussion board topics are often referred to as threads),


Shadow
(the poster who started off the discussion or thread).

:D

[golf nut]

Great
(good, excellent, outstanding, etc. Likely self serving)


thread
(discussion board topics are often referred to as threads,some are better than others),


Shadow
(the poster who started off the discussion or thread, not to be confused with people that know better).

:D






just another opinion.

[Golf_Goof]

just another opinion.

I couldn't figure out what your question was with the 'Huh..?' so I replied with sarcastic definitions. It took me some time to notice that you edited my reply with your own comments.

I think the thread is good and you don't - fair enough.

If you have comment/opinion, type it out in your own reply instead of making it appear to be someone else's.

[Bellyhungry]

+4...my wife isn't a big golfer, but even his post confused the crap out of her. :rofl:

+5....

I am gonna send my bottle water to the lab to test for alcohol content.

[Golden Bear]

I don't particularly care about his credentials, since uncredentialed people CAN be quite knowledgeable, but I'm curious to know what current tour players he thinks would embody the "ideal" swing. Judging from his list, all golfers would seem to subscribe to myths. So I'm wondering if there's anyone who has a swing that is NOT characterized by myth ... and whether the existence of a myth-free swing is, itself, a myth.