Augusta National's controversy

[Mok]

I'm sure most of you know the deal with Augusta National.

No women memberships! Take a look at the Augusta Members List (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/masters/2002-09-27-augusta-list.htm) yourself.

I have been reading about some of the controversy online and I wonder what you guys think about it. Here is a Timeline of the August National membership controversy (http://www.golfweb.com/u/ce/feature/0,1977,6245348,00.html).

I personally think they should allow female members. Other people may think otherwise. One reason other people think otherwise is they look at the example of womens only health clubs.

[EDSGolf]

Ohhhhh, this thread should be interesting! I say women should be allowed to join, you pay, you play!

[Mule56]

I have been reading about some of the controversy online and I wonder what you guys think about it.
Mok,
Unfortunately I have to say no and before you jump me, let me tell ya why. If I'm having a party at my house and someone is not invited should let them in just because I'm having a party. If it's someone I know and I have inviited then I should let them in.
Consider August to be someones house. The members have the right to allow who they want into there house and non-members have no right to tell them who they have to let in.
If I was a member I would want women in. I have no issue with women playing the course or playing in a group with women. I've played at my home course and in many charity events with both man and women. Most of the time the women are more fun and less likely to tell you about their 300 hundred yards drives or how you should play your next shot.
But it is just not my place to tell August what to do.
Mule

[Focker Singh]

Just need a clarification before I add my 2 cents. Is Augusta's membership based on invitation only? I think you have to be invited to become a member. Its not just a matter of having the money to join. Am I correct or not?

[chiantibro]

The problem that faces Augusta National is that the club is a private one, yet they hold a very public event. Fans of golf and opponents of the Augusta policy are also in the middle of a muddle. Martha Burke claims that since Augusta is a club that has members from a very influential segment of businessmen, and that women make up more than one half of the consumers in America, and, some women also hold senior positions within companies with members at the club then they are being discriminated against by being disallowed a chance at a membership. She is right in a way, but she has done more harm than good with her public stance. I think that the 'ole boys in Georgia will just dig in their heels and say No if they believe someone is trying to tell them what to do. The Masters generates a significant profit for Augusta National and just last year they told their sponsors that they wouldn't be needed (Martha had threatened a boycott of the sponsors--Augusta just said, no problem, we won't have any...).
All the same I don't like to see discrimination of any kind in golf, but again Augusta National is a private club. No public money (i.e. taxes) go towards supporting the club.
But money talks, and just how many players would skip the Masters in order to support an equal rights position? It's not about should women be allowed to become members of Augusta, but at what point should the public interst and the private sector be told how to behave? And by whom?

Just a duffer's opine...

[chiantibro]

Just need a clarification before I add my 2 cents. Is Augusta's membership based on invitation only? I think you have to be invited to become a member. Its not just a matter of having the money to join. Am I correct or not?
Correct, FS.

[laxgolf]

Private Clubs can do whatever they want. That's why they're private. Women are allowed to play Augusta National.

[Ego Woods]

I would have no stink about having a Men's only golf club.....if there were a women's only golf club, it'd be fine with me as well.....in fact there are a bunch of women's only clubs, and you HAVE to be a woman to be a part of it.....so what?

The issue should really be raised up with the PGA and not Augusta for deciding to host the Masters at a venue which is only accessible to a male....

[Shadow]

If any amount of tax money is used to operate a club then that club should admit men and women as members, as long as they pay the same membership fees. However, a private club should be permitted to dictate their own membership requirements and if it's men only or women only, that's fine.

The Masters that is held is at Augusta National is not a PGA Tour run event. It's run by Augusta National, therefore, the Tour's policies regarding membership discrimination do not apply. Beacuse many of the members are influential people who are part of well known companies who sell consumer products, Martha Burke and those like minded people feel it necessary to blackmail these companies by encouraging others to boycott the products manufactured. IMO, the whole issue is not about discrimination, but about power and control, and I am glad that Hootie made the decision that he did.

There are discrimination problems out there and they should be dealt with. However, solving the discrimination problem by creating reverse discrimination is just as abhorrent.

[Bogeybog]

I would have no stink about having a Men's only golf club.....if there were a women's only golf club, it'd be fine with me as well.....in fact there are a bunch of women's only clubs, and you HAVE to be a woman to be a part of it.....so what?

The issue should really be raised up with the PGA and not Augusta for deciding to host the Masters at a venue which is only accessible to a male....
If I am not mistaken, Augusta is NOT only accessible to a male, women can play there as well, however, you have to be a male to be a MEMBER. Big difference.

[Jaydog]

what if a member were to invite a woman to join? would the woman be allowed or is membership first put before a board to decide?

[Mok]

Mok, Unfortunately I have to say no and before you jump me

no problem discussion is what this forum is about, i love hearing different opinions!

anyways, from what I read, Augusta National's membership base is a lot of public company executives, and these executives bring their clients to the course to impress clients and seal deals...so basically putting females execs at a disadvantage..

and what the Martha Burke was saying is that the shareholders from those companies would probably not approve of their execs expensing anything to do with Augusta. She also says that they have ways around that by increasing the salary of execs by the membership fee to keep the membership hidden from it's shareholders...

[Focker Singh]

Its a very touchy subject for many. I personally don't really care. If Augusta National is restricting female memberships than let them. Its a private club and like others have said, they don't take tax money. Some very good points were made. One being that Augusta is not a PGA event. Augusta runs the show at the Masters and doesn't require sponsorship. If you watch the Masters, there are no commercials or advertisements on the course. Therefore, Augusta can do whatever it wants. I have no problem with a women's club restricting men from being members. I also don't think any player will boycott the most pretigious, famed and storied golf tournament in the world. Once qualified to play, its like an honor itself. Tiger's expressed that he thinks women should be allowed to become members but do you think he'll boycott the Masters or do you think Augusta will ban Tiger from playing? Don't think so. I don't even know why this is such a big issue with some people.

[Mok]

I don't even know why this is such a big issue with some people.

here is why it's an issue:

got this from: National Organization for Women (http://www.now.org)

"Hootie tries to hide behind the private-club excuse, but during the week of the Masters, Augusta National becomes the public face of golf, with television network sponsorships from the largest corporations in the U.S.," O'Neill said. "The membership roster of Augusta National reads like a who's who of the corporate world. The members of Augusta have a responsibility to act in a civilized manner and not exclude 51% of the population."

"It's about denying women access to the power and privilege that come with belonging to such a club." Gandy notes that alliances are formed among members at Augusta that result in business deals and career advancement.

if it was some joe blow golf club i don't think anyone would care haha...

[Mok]

The issue should really be raised up with the PGA and not Augusta for deciding to host the Masters at a venue which is only accessible to a male....
that is partly true.

read my last post above for the other reasons why the women are fighting for their rights there...

[Shadow]

"It's about denying women access to the power and privilege that come with belonging to such a club." Gandy notes that alliances are formed among members at Augusta that result in business deals and career advancement.

As the NOA is a large organization as well, filled with high profile business types, let them build thier own golf course and when there is a wish to form an alliance that may result in business deals and career advancement, just invite the appropriate people to play, whether men or women.

Hootie tries to hide behind the private-club excuse, but during the week of the Masters, Augusta National becomes the public face of golf, True,and if women were banned form attending the tournament there would be justuification for raising a stink.

Our liberal (Liberal) governments are in our faces too much, trying to legislate everything. Whether it's municipal or provincial, I am not sure, but, a person is required to have a licence to use a chainsaw, a ladder over roughly 10 feet, and I cannot cut down a tree on MY property without getting written approval.

[Ems]

If Augusta National is a private course, and no sponsorship or funding is given to the course, then they should be allowed to do what they want and restrict membership.

I think the problem has more to do with the publicity given to the Masters. The image that is being portrayed is one of discrimination because the Masters is such a huge event. I have a bigger concern with the PGA decision makers who allow Augusta to host one of the majors and not with the course itself (though I'm sure Hootie, whoever he is, has a strong influence on that). Since golf is a game for both genders with fans of both sexes strongly supporting the sport, I think the PGA should allow another course to host the Masters.

I also have distaste for the 'boyz' who bring their business partners to courses like Augusta to 'talk business' and for the 'boyz' that accept and make deals on the course. I have distaste for it but it happens all around us, Augusta National is just a more prestigious and expensive version of what happens in after-hour drinking with the 'boyz', at pubs or strip-joints.

I think this is a fact of life and doubt it'll change in my lifetime (I'm about a quarter century old right now). I also don't want to take away people's rights to do things from the privacy of their own 'home' if I want the same right to restrict people based on my own preferences.

How many of you guys have closed deals or gained some insight to further your careers after hours? I know I've seen it happen. It's a bit disappointing, but you think of ways to get around it. If I had the power and the money, I'd make sure Augusta doesn't host a major.

As for boycotting, sometimes that's what you need to do to raise awareness on an important issue, whether or not someone actually boycotts those companies is another thing. At least, because such a stink is raised, I'm now aware and will make decisions that would affect how I deal with others and in a small way, advance society to have more equality. There's a bigger picture to what Martha Burke is trying to do.

[Andru]

HAHA. Hold on a minute. There's only 300 members at augusta national. They're discriminating against quite a few people. Even if you have the money and you're invited it's one of the most difficult clubs to get in to. Here's the deal. Hootie's a guy who has broken down doors his entire life for minorities and women. He's not completely in charge. There are still some good ole' boyz running the show. Once they pass away and the membership becomes younger. They will add women. It's only time.

I'm a little on fence when it comes to this. On one hand I'd be very upset if there were no blacks in Augusta. I guess Women and Men are different. Guys like to get away with just the guys and girls like to hang with the girls. It just sounds different than saying well. "Us Whites like to hang with other whites."

Am I nuts?

[Andru]

"It's about denying women access to the power and privilege that come with belonging to such a club." Gandy notes that alliances are formed among members at Augusta that result in business deals and career advancement.

As the NOA is a large organization as well, filled with high profile business types, let them build thier own golf course and when there is a wish to form an alliance that may result in business deals and career advancement, just invite the appropriate people to play, whether men or women.

Hootie tries to hide behind the private-club excuse, but during the week of the Masters, Augusta National becomes the public face of golf, True,and if women were banned form attending the tournament there would be justuification for raising a stink.

Our liberal (Liberal) governments are in our faces too much, trying to legislate everything. Whether it's municipal or provincial, I am not sure, but, a person is required to have a licence to use a chainsaw, a ladder over roughly 10 feet, and I cannot cut down a tree on MY property without getting written approval.HAHA. I agree with you on Augusta but the Liberals have NOTHING to do with your tree on your lawn. That's not a federal issue. The Liberal Gov while too left for you isn't really that left. I refuse to have our country run by a bunch of evangelical christians like the US. It's nice to know when they decide to put religion on the ballot in Canada that Canadians will choose Canada.

We have to play golf one day and debate this in person. :)

[mikejb]

I also have distaste for the 'boyz' who bring their business partners to courses like Augusta to 'talk business' and for the 'boyz' that accept and make deals on the course.
A very wise and extremely sucessful Toronto business man has told me many times, those who believe that will close a deal on the course are dreaming. The deals are done before that, not out there.
As for Augusta, they are a private company, and a private club. It is there business and they selected who is asked to be there. The club has such a secret selection process that no one knows for sure how anyone becomes a member.

[Ems]

A very wise and extremely sucessful Toronto business man has told me many times, those who believe that will close a deal on the course are dreaming. The deals are done before that, not out there.
As for Augusta, they are a private company, and a private club. It is there business and they selected who is asked to be there. The club has such a secret selection process that no one knows for sure how anyone becomes a member.
Ok, it doesn't have to literally be 'closing' a deal, but it's a way to build your network and gain some advantageous insights.

And to Andru's point, if they only allowed Whites, I think that would be an even bigger reason to boycott the place, and I would seriously have a problem with that.

You're right, sometimes girls just want to play with girls, so I can understand their membership rule somewhat. Too bad they also host a Major.

[Mok]

i see a few of you use the arguement that it's private and they can do what they want...so does this mean that if a club is private then it's ok for them to reject certain races also?

no offence to anyone, i just want to know what's the difference between discriminating between race and gender?

[Michael]

if you have a problem with their membership selection just boycott all the companies on their membership list...

don't drink Coca-Cola haha good reason to switch to Pepsi
don't drink coors light also, swtich to budweiser
don't use esso gas, use petro canada, support Cdns!
the list goes on look at the membership list haha...

there are a few execs that have resigned their Augusta membership due to this scandal.

basically, what I am saying is don't hold a grudge against Augusta, it's the corporations that are providing memberships to their execs to be at Augusta.

[Ego Woods]

Augusta runs the show at the Masters and doesn't require sponsorship. If you watch the Masters, there are no commercials or advertisements on the course.
Only because they cancelled their sponsorships the past couple years because of Martha Burke......the ol' bag called sponsors who bought commercial space during the Masters and demanded to know why they would support a club who doesn't allow female members......I've heard that they've decided to re-allow some commercial advertisement again for the next Masters

[Mok]

Only because they cancelled their sponsorships the past couple years because of Martha Burke......the ol' bag called sponsors who bought commercial space during the Masters and demanded to know why they would support a club who doesn't allow female members......I've heard that they've decided to re-allow some commercial advertisement again for the next Masters
yah Burke asked sponsors to boycott the tournament and instead Augusta National decided it didn't need sponsors, so they just paid for everything themselves...

[Andru]

i see a few of you use the arguement that it's private and they can do what they want...so does this mean that if a club is private then it's ok for them to reject certain races also?

no offence to anyone, i just want to know what's the difference between discriminating between race and gender?
I think I trred to explain that in my last post. Imagine you're leaving work on Friday and a colleague asks you. "What are you doing this weekend."

You say. "Well I'm having a boys only poker night" No one would think twice about it.

If you said " Hey I'm having my <insert race here> poker night" You would hopefully feel a little uncomfortable saying that.

Why? I think we know why. Everyone here at some point has been a part of a single sex organization, sports teams, stags, and staggets, a fun night out with the friends whatever. Augusta is just that, a bunch of guys who want to hang out with their buddies of a similar economical status. That's it. It's not so they can keep women from advancing, or to keep the business deals in a small group. It's a golf club.

Personally. Other than the occasional time I go out with my friends I couldn't care less for gender specific clubs. But That's me and I don't hold it against anyone who wants to be in gender specific clubs. ( Works both ways ).

BTW. During the Masters. It's open to everyone including the field. If you can play, you can make the field at the Masters or attend.

[Mok]

You say. "Well I'm having a boys only poker night" No one would think twice about it.

hehe, i know what you mean Andru, but with my group of friends (and with a lot of other groups i'm sure) poker is not boys only no more :help: :help: :help: ;) :eek:

[chiantibro]

BTW. During the Masters. It's open to everyone including the field. If you can play, you can make the field at the Masters or attend.

Andru, the only way you can play the Masters is by a direct invitation from Augusta National itself. Even if someone like Annika Sorenstam or Michelle Wie qualified in some way the membership still hold the right to refuse them a spot in the tournament.:cool:

[Ems]

I think I trred to explain that in my last post. Imagine you're leaving work on Friday and a colleague asks you. "What are you doing this weekend."

You say. "Well I'm having a boys only poker night" No one would think twice about it.

If you said " Hey I'm having my <insert race here> poker night" You would hopefully feel a little uncomfortable saying that.

Why? I think we know why. Everyone here at some point has been a part of a single sex organization, sports teams, stags, and staggets, a fun night out with the friends whatever. Augusta is just that, a bunch of guys who want to hang out with their buddies of a similar economical status. That's it. It's not so they can keep women from advancing, or to keep the business deals in a small group. It's a golf club.

Personally. Other than the occasional time I go out with my friends I couldn't care less for gender specific clubs. But That's me and I don't hold it against anyone who wants to be in gender specific clubs. ( Works both ways ).

BTW. During the Masters. It's open to everyone including the field. If you can play, you can make the field at the Masters or attend.
I love my girls night out and I also like crashing my bf's poker nights ;)

[Queen of the Beach]

Well I had to do some reading up about this topic in order to reply to all your very intelligible replies.

I personally feel that boys only clubs or girls only clubs should exist and see nothing wrong with that. Augusta National built by Bobby Jones was created during a period when Golf was for Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden. The fact is Golf used to be a Mens only game at Mens only clubs/courses. That thinking has changed. I think the discussion should be about whether Golf is now an international game and whether or not Golf is discriminatory towards gender or race.

IMO I think that the face of Golf is changing. Many pros and especially Tiger has been a big advocate of that. I really admire all the charitable work he has done for the Tiger Woods Foundation. And since 1998, the Masters has given over $7 million to the First Tee organization. The First Tee was created to provide affordable access to the game of golf for young people who otherwise might not have an opportunity to play. The First Tee has reached over 300,000 girls and boys through 151 golf learning facilities. Augusta National is not trying to prevent girls and women from playing the game of golf.

The big controversy is that the PGA traditionally holds The Masters Tournament at Augusta National Golf Club. Augusta National is a private mens' club that has its own rules about its members. I think they are entitled to that. However club rules can change as new members are added. Augusta National Golf Club is filled with many senior citizens. (I took a brief look at the Members' list.) I think that the PGA will continue to hold events seperate from the LPGA and the Masters will continue to be held at Augusta National until the day comes when the older members have passed on. Maybe the younger and newer members will one day change the club rules. Since the Masters Tournament is an international competition and the contestants are invited guests from an international playing field. I think that at the Masters gender/race should not matter. They should invite the great women of golf and let them play.Then maybe one day we will see a woman golfer wearing the coveted Green Jacket.

[Mok]

i have a question, so lets say the past winners of The Masters, such as Tiger Woods or Mike Weir...do they get automatic membership to the club because they won the Masters and the green jacket? The green jacket is for members only right?

[Andru]

BTW. During the Masters. It's open to everyone including the field. If you can play, you can make the field at the Masters or attend.

Andru, the only way you can play the Masters is by a direct invitation from Augusta National itself. Even if someone like Annika Sorenstam or Michelle Wie qualified in some way the membership still hold the right to refuse them a spot in the tournament.:cool:
Augusta has a set of criteria to earn an invitation. They're already gone on record stating should Anyone male or female meet the required standards they will be invited. I would consider this as solid as earning a spot in the US Open. It is open to everyone. If you get a ticket to the masters you won't be refused entrance based on race, gender, age. etc etc etc.

It's funny you mention Annika and Michelle Wie. Both have never qualified for a PGA tour event mush less the masters. The first woman to qualify for the masters won't be Michelle Wie. That female is a 5 year old somehwere, with a golf club in her hands.

Michelle's only chance is one of the Major US Amateurs. Which she will not be eligible for when she's turns pro.

[Andru]

i have a question, so lets say the past winners of The Masters, such as Tiger Woods or Mike Weir...do they get automatic membership to the club because they won the Masters and the green jacket? The green jacket is for members only right?
They are honorary members. Non-Voting.