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NickStarchuk
Mar 28, 2010, 08:15 PM
Did anyone see this and see her reaction to the 'unfair' rule?

jayda
Mar 28, 2010, 08:24 PM
it's a good call from the officials.
it's her stupid decision to hit in the water to start with...

TourIQ
Mar 28, 2010, 08:25 PM
Did anyone see this and see her reaction to the 'unfair' rule?No - care to explain it Nick and thanks :D

jayda
Mar 28, 2010, 08:25 PM
cost her $90K...

ginrin
Mar 28, 2010, 08:28 PM
Questionable at best,what advantage does anyone have by grounding a club 2 ft from the ball?
Who is her agent? She looks pretty hott:cool:

The Troll
Mar 28, 2010, 08:28 PM
What was she even arguing for....so clearly a penalty.

One day she'll grow up.

JZGolf
Mar 28, 2010, 08:28 PM
I'm embarrased for her...I can't believe that she couldn't give it up. She just kept digging herself into a hole, and instead of being mature enough to say "I screwed up"....

It's disappointing that a $20 mil a year athlete is that immature.

.....just watching the interview now....

Hey Michelle, use the word "like" a few more times....this is rediculous.

An embarrassment for the LPGA Tour, Michelle, and Stanford too...Michelle's inability to articulate her argument doesn't reflect well on the university.

I also don't think that the camera should have been in that trailer...bad move by the LPGA Tour - big time. Lots of screw ups all around.

I guess this is more motivation for me to practice so that I can get a piece of the $20 million endorsements...what an embarrasment.

just my $0.04...

gr8glfr
Mar 28, 2010, 08:30 PM
If she got away without a penalty, it would have been a severe injustice to the rest of the field. In my opinion it was not even close. Michelle needs to women up and admit she was way off in disputing the decision.

JZGolf
Mar 28, 2010, 08:32 PM
If she got away without a penalty, it would have been a severe injustice to the rest of the field. In my opinion it was not even close. Michelle needs to women up and admit she was way off in disputing the decision.

Agreed. Woman-up, that's a good one...

NickStarchuk
Mar 28, 2010, 08:34 PM
Michelle hit a shot from the water. There was a huge splash and the ball got out of the water but not out of the hazard. She opened her eyes from the water splash and looked down at her ball still in the hazard. Then her club hit the ground. Not once, but twice.

She claims she did it to keep her balance and claimed that the rules official could not tell what she was feeling.

Bellyhungry
Mar 28, 2010, 08:36 PM
First and foremost, her IMG agent 'Nicole something' is hot.

As for the ruling, there were so many instances where players were given the benefit of the doubt, not sure why they were so hard core about it. For instance, a few years ago in one of the women majors, Sophie Guftason grounded her club and the ball moved. She said she didn't even though TV footage clearly (pre HD) showed that she did. She went on to win and she was the GF of LPGA commish Ty Votaw at that time.

My question is, if her right foot was stuck in the mud, what can she use as leverage to extracate herself out of the mud other than putting the club on the ground and pull herself out?

TourIQ
Mar 28, 2010, 08:37 PM
Michelle hit a shot from the water. There was a huge splash and the ball got out of the water but not out of the hazard. She opened her eyes from the water splash and looked down at her ball still in the hazard. Then her club hit the ground. Not once, but twice.

She claims she did it to keep her balance and claimed that the rules official could not tell what she was feeling.Thanks Nick.
Anyone have a video feed on the interview?

Bellyhungry
Mar 28, 2010, 08:38 PM
If she got away without a penalty, it would have been a severe injustice to the rest of the field. In my opinion it was not even close. Michelle needs to women up and admit she was way off in disputing the decision.

I don't know about this. There were so many instances on the PGA Tour where the officials quized the players involved in possible rule infractions, so long as the players deny any wrong doing, they were given the benefit of the doubt.

NickStarchuk
Mar 28, 2010, 08:42 PM
I'm looking for video but I'm sure it will be on sportscenter at 11.

I agree, that in order to get out of the water she may have to use a club for balance, but in this instance, she dropped her club, almost in disgrace that the ball didn't advance out of the hazard.

The rule is clear and she violated it. I think its disappointing to see her reaction and her debate with the rules officials did not show well for her image.

JZGolf
Mar 28, 2010, 08:46 PM
I don't know about this. There were so many instances on the PGA Tour where the officials quized the players involved in possible rule infractions, so long as the players deny any wrong doing, they were given the benefit of the doubt.

Just because the player denies wrong doing doesn't mean they will always get the ruling in their favour.

Watching the video, it is very hard to think that Michelle was using the club to gain balance. Watching the video, her weight was clearly stable on her back foot, and her left leg was bent comfortably on the grass. She hardly had any grip pressure on her left hand, as the club was jostling about while on the ground, and her left arm was comfortably by her side.

If there is doubt in a rules violation, most often it is up to the player to call it on herself. In this case, with 3 officials watching the tape, the situation was not in doubt.

Bellyhungry
Mar 28, 2010, 08:48 PM
I'm looking for video but I'm sure it will be on sportscenter at 11.

I agree, that in order to get out of the water she may have to use a club for balance, but in this instance, she dropped her club, almost in disgrace that the ball didn't advance out of the hazard.

The rule is clear and she violated it. I think its disappointing to see her reaction and her debate with the rules officials did not show well for her image.

I was very surprised that they let the TV and microphones get that close to them, including the TV trailer. Her agent should not have let that happen.

Imagine the rule dispute of all the PGA players being broadcasted like that? I am sure many of us would have had a different opinion of them. Just picture the groove discussions between Phil and the USGA.

mrvelani
Mar 28, 2010, 08:49 PM
For ****s sakes guys she is 20? I am sorry if most of you were mature adults that never did anything wrong or were a little more emotional at that age. She is certainly doing a better job of carrying herself than I would've done at that age.

Its really a shame seeing grown men picking on young girls about the language they use or the way she acts overall.

Bellyhungry
Mar 28, 2010, 08:49 PM
Just because the player denies wrong doing doesn't mean they will always get the ruling in their favour.

Watching the video, it is very hard to think that Michelle was using the club to gain balance. Watching the video, her weight was clearly stable on her back foot, and her left leg was bent comfortably on the grass. She hardly had any grip pressure on her left hand, as the club was jostling about while on the ground, and her left arm was comfortably by her side.

If there is doubt in a rules violation, most often it is up to the player to call it on herself. In this case, with 3 officials watching the tape, the situation was not in doubt.

Don't get me wrong, I think she had a brain fart and clearly violated the rule. I am just a bit surprised by how the whole dispute unfoled.

NickStarchuk
Mar 28, 2010, 08:54 PM
For ****s sakes guys she is 20? I am sorry if most of you were mature adults that never did anything wrong or were a little more emotional at that age. She is certainly doing a better job of carrying herself than I would've done at that age.

Its really a shame seeing grown men picking on young girls about the language they use or the way she acts overall.


I disagree. She acted very poorly even for a 20 year old. She attended Stanford University, which is one of the top schools in the country. She has an agent, a publicist, and a whole team of people who have been molding her for years since she turned professional.

I think there was also a little acting going on because she knew she was on camera.

Deuce66
Mar 28, 2010, 08:59 PM
She was looking for a 'break' and didn't get it - the rules were applied properly in this instance, she didn't come close to losing her balance, she simply had a brain fart and grounded her club after her shot while the ball remained in the hazard. Too bad it didn't turn into a Aquawoman episode, that would've been classic.

JZGolf
Mar 28, 2010, 08:59 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think she had a brain fart and clearly violated the rule. I am just a bit surprised by how the whole dispute unfoled.

Whether it was her agent, the Tour or whoever, it was not handled well....I'm not a fan of Michelle, and I'm less a fan of the "media". hahahah.

For ****s sakes guys she is 20? I am sorry if most of you were mature adults that never did anything wrong or were a little more emotional at that age. She is certainly doing a better job of carrying herself than I would've done at that age.

Its really a shame seeing grown men picking on young girls about the language they use or the way she acts overall.

She is now an adult, and one that commands a lot of $$ and attention of the golf world. If she is going to play in these tournaments, get paid a lot of money and have the privilege that comes with it, I think we need to hold her to a higher standard. She is no longer a "young girl"...especially considering the stories I have heard about her social conduct at Stanford...Or if she isn't mature enough to deal responsibly with these situations, the person who negotiated her endorsement contract probably should be.

"Celebrities" and "pro athletes" should be held to a higher standard, especially in their professional life. It is a small cost considering the immense benefits they receive, both financial and otherwise, in our society.

I'm no angel myself, but certainly don't have the same influence in golf that Michelle has. Her behaviour today was not the kind that I would like a young golfer to emulate. My personal rule of thumb when it comes to making the right decision in life: what image would I like my son or daughter to see?

TourIQ
Mar 28, 2010, 09:02 PM
For ****s sakes guys she is 20? I am sorry if most of you were mature adults that never did anything wrong or were a little more emotional at that age. She is certainly doing a better job of carrying herself than I would've done at that age.

Its really a shame seeing grown men picking on young girls about the language they use or the way she acts overall.Like you know aaahhh you like have a point. Quit babying the young lady, she is not a little girl anymore :cool:

CMSW
Mar 28, 2010, 09:05 PM
I'm embarrased for her...I can't believe that she couldn't give it up. She just kept digging herself into a hole, and instead of being mature enough to say "I screwed up"....

It's disappointing that a $20 mil a year athlete is that immature.

.....just watching the interview now....

Hey Michelle, use the word "like" a few more times....this is rediculous.

An embarrassment for the LPGA Tour, Michelle, and Stanford too...Michelle's inability to articulate her argument doesn't reflect well on the university.

I also don't think that the camera should have been in that trailer...bad move by the LPGA Tour - big time. Lots of screw ups all around.

I guess this is more motivation for me to practice so that I can get a piece of the $20 million endorsements...what an embarrasment.

just my $0.04...

The LPGA should not have shown the verbal exchange between her and the official. They could have saved some embarrassment there.

The Troll
Mar 28, 2010, 09:05 PM
I was very surprised that they let the TV and microphones get that close to them, including the TV trailer. Her agent should not have let that happen.

Imagine the rule dispute of all the PGA players being broadcasted like that?

They showed (with full sound) Graeme McDowell in the PGA scoring trailer going through the video a few weeks ago when he "touched" the water in his backswing.

imAnewbie
Mar 28, 2010, 09:07 PM
Jeez, she got the penalty already, she screwed up acting "matured" on the TV, can't we just watch and stop hating her? For once, just watch and stop reacting so much. Everything has to be based on some standards that you have to live your life on, so what if she's from Stanford? Does that mean all Stanford students are angels? Geez, using the word "like" too much, who cares if she does? Blame her english teacher, that's suppose to be their job right? Just watch ladies and gents, not everyone is perfect like you think.

Cards
Mar 28, 2010, 09:13 PM
See i dont agree with having to hold athletes and celebs to higher standards. They are people just like the rest of us, Michelle may have been groomed for years by agents and publicists but underneath all that shes still just a 20 year old girl and us 20 year olds can be quite unrational at times.

LowPost42
Mar 28, 2010, 09:17 PM
After watching it in both slo-mo and full speed, she clearly didn't ground her club in an attempt to keep her balance. Watch her hand - she drops the club out of disappointment (or whatever) - not increase her grip on it to keep from falling over.

Stop whining, whiner! You screwed up, you grounded your club in a hazard, take your penalty and move on.

JZGolf
Mar 28, 2010, 09:46 PM
See i dont agree with having to hold athletes and celebs to higher standards. They are people just like the rest of us, Michelle may have been groomed for years by agents and publicists but underneath all that shes still just a 20 year old girl and us 20 year olds can be quite unrational at times.

Don't mistake the fact that "celebs" are just people like the rest of us with the fact that they are people that have a very high privilege in society, with a whole lot of influence.

I think with the wealth and power she has.....attained....there are different standards that apply. She is in position to do some real good for young golfers, especially young girls (part of the golf demographic that needs a boost). It would be better for her and for the game if she was a better ambassador. Even if she doesn't realize this fact, I would have hoped that someone at Nike or within her "circle" would do better with the guidance.

I hate to be overly critical of others, but I would expect them to do the same for me...even if I don't command the same attention as a golfer...yet :D

Cards
Mar 28, 2010, 09:50 PM
Don't mistake the fact that "celebs" are just people like the rest of us with the fact that they are people that have a very high privilege in society, with a whole lot of influence.

I think with the wealth and power she has.....attained....there are different standards that apply. She is in position to do some real good for young golfers, especially young girls (part of the golf demographic that needs a boost). It would be better for her and for the game if she was a better ambassador. Even if she doesn't realize this fact, I would have hoped that someone at Nike or within her "circle" would do better with the guidance.

I hate to be overly critical of others, but I would expect them to do the same for me...even if I don't command the same attention as a golfer...yet :D

They do have a lot of influence, but they still are just people. People do and say stupid things everyday and i just feel that sometimes society can be over critical about their actions and i just feel that its a little bit unfair.

The Troll
Mar 28, 2010, 10:02 PM
They do have a lot of influence, but they still are just people. People do and say stupid things everyday and i just feel that sometimes society can be over critical about their actions and i just feel that its a little bit unfair.

Didn't you start the Brandel Chamblee thread.... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Cards
Mar 28, 2010, 10:34 PM
Didn't you start the Brandel Chamblee thread.... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I dont see how they relate :confused: I dont like Brandels style, it had nothing to do with judging him as a person. He could be one of the coolest guys in person, wouldnt change my opinion of his commentary :confused:

mikep
Mar 29, 2010, 01:05 AM
Just watched the video.... The replay room was pretty small, setting up the camera in there with the mike I am sure took a few minutes. I think it was done just to generate threads like what we are having... not saying it is right or wrong: maybe they should send Michelle to acting school.

Greywolf
Mar 29, 2010, 02:47 AM
I was watching the coverage and saw it, she did not seem to be off balance at all, the 2 stroke penalty was justified. This is not the first sizeable penalty that Michelle has incurred, it won't be the last either.

Mule56
Mar 29, 2010, 05:28 AM
http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/wie-little-mishap-6803/?ref=26000

Bellyhungry
Mar 29, 2010, 06:17 AM
Whatever it is, Wie got us talking about LPGA whereas no one is talking about Bay Hill.

Did I mention her agent is hot? :) We need a frontal shot. :hyper:

mikep
Mar 29, 2010, 07:53 AM
Is it the Michelle Wie Reality Show, or the LPGA Reality Show?

Lefty17
Mar 29, 2010, 08:37 AM
Just because the player denies wrong doing doesn't mean they will always get the ruling in their favour.

Watching the video, it is very hard to think that Michelle was using the club to gain balance. Watching the video, her weight was clearly stable on her back foot, and her left leg was bent comfortably on the grass. She hardly had any grip pressure on her left hand, as the club was jostling about while on the ground, and her left arm was comfortably by her side.

If there is doubt in a rules violation, most often it is up to the player to call it on herself. In this case, with 3 officials watching the tape, the situation was not in doubt.

Very well said!! I was laughing listening to her make the plee. Education my a$$ my buddies 3 year old can put together better sentences and sounds more mature then that. I agree with the ruling that was handed down.

unplayablelie
Mar 29, 2010, 08:42 AM
she was womaning up....

most men would be pissed, but realize it WAS THEIR OWN FAULT

Malibook
Mar 29, 2010, 09:18 AM
Clearly a rules violation but I think the rule should differentiate the fact that she was not in the process of making a shot and the club was not by the ball.

I know her ball was still in the hazard but I think it should only be a penalty if she is into her pre-shot routine for the next shot.

Just like hitting out of a bunker and subsequently touching the sand but because your ball went into another bunker across the green it is a penalty even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the next shot.

laps
Mar 29, 2010, 09:31 AM
Clearly a rules violation but I think the rule should differentiate the fact that she was not in the process of making a shot and the club was not by the ball.

I know her ball was still in the hazard but I think it should only be a penalty if she is into her pre-shot routine for the next shot.

Just like hitting out of a bunker and subsequently touching the sand but because your ball went into another bunker across the green it is a penalty even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the next shot.

Its a stupid rule! I don't see why you should not be allowed to ground a club in a hazard. It gives little advantage if every one is allowed to do it.

Michelle Wie clearly grounded the club, if she was losing her balance she hid it well, she looked perfectly balanced - quite impressive given her awkward stance. Nonetheless she broke a (silly) rule.

Bellyhungry
Mar 29, 2010, 09:46 AM
I am eager to hear what A Man Named Papa, the golf rules extraordinaire here have to say about this :)

Malibook
Mar 29, 2010, 10:08 AM
Its a stupid rule! I don't see why you should not be allowed to ground a club in a hazard. It gives little advantage if every one is allowed to do it.I totally agree with the rule that you can't ground your club in a hazard.

What I don't agree with is that it is treated the same if it happens after the shot and it has absolutely nothing to do with the next shot or the outcome of the hole.

Andru
Mar 29, 2010, 10:20 AM
I knew this would be an issue and the responses are inline with the general feeling for Michelle Wie in general. IE The people saying she's immature and overpaid repeat those ridiculous sentiments and sight this as an example.

That being said. It comes down to her making the call. Balance and unbalance is a personal call. you can't make the call unless you're that person.

I remember reading a study on a tight rope walker. They isolated 6 cameras on the walker and asked the walker to relay any adjustments.

Here's the interesting part on several occasions the walker stated clearly that he made an adjustment. Even though through several viewings no one could clearly see those adjustments. What seemed profound to him was subtle to invisible to an observer.

That's the way our human gyroscopes work. We make massive adjustments to stay upright. Some are voluntary some involuntary. You can't tell how someone feels because there's no obvious tilt or wiggle.

The thing that lead me to believe her, was she closed her eyes. We've all done it. once you open your eyes all bets are off. the sun, the tilt of her stance. her foot in the water etc. it's not entirely ridiculous that she felt for a moment insecure in her footing.

By the way. They did manage to isolate the adjustment the walker felt it was a movement in his pinky finger............ 1/8 of an inch. If we apply the same logic as some have in this thread and the lpga officials. He would be lying.

Happy golfing everyone the golf season is back.

Bern
Mar 29, 2010, 10:52 AM
I saw the ruling and think it's a bit over the top especially after spraying herself with water it is reasonable to assume she was off balance. Tough crowd here on TGN. I'll make sure to be on my best behaviour when playing with you.

sharkhark
Mar 29, 2010, 11:07 AM
The LPGA should not have shown the verbal exchange between her and the official. They could have saved some embarrassment there.
why are you guys saying that? most weeks the lpga just quietly goes about its business with not one single post from us on it...and now you are discussing it...i think it was smart to show this stuff. I watched it and at first it looked like she might have lost balance but on repeat viewings it is clear that she just plain forgot and screwed up, was not even aware.

The gentle way she let the club fall...twice..was clearly a relaxed and not aware player..accidentally setting it down...in no way could you say it was for leaning on...or part of the follow thru..or for leverage.

She just screwed up....the video of her upset i have not seen, but i taped the tourney and will watch it...i was able to rewind her shot though.
This is some press for the lpga which they never get...good stuff.

tywl
Mar 29, 2010, 11:48 AM
Wow...thats quite ruling on this rule...going to have to read this in the Rules of Golf myself later on today

Not allowed to unintentionally ground a club in a hazard after a shot has been made...very harsh indeed

I've seen it done by many pros on TV after a sand shot...using their club like a ski pole to get out of the bunker...

sharkhark
Mar 29, 2010, 12:09 PM
Wow...thats quite ruling on this rule...going to have to read this in the Rules of Golf myself later on today

Not allowed to unintentionally ground a club in a hazard after a shot has been made...very harsh indeed

I've seen it done by many pros on TV after a sand shot...using their club like a ski pole to get out of the bunker...
i have seen the video now..man..she is as sad as ever...she is a 20 yr old woman now..not a teenager..yet she sounds like a 13 yr old valley girl..um..ok..like..u r not letting me splain myself..um...etc

re you above not like the rule? ok...look at it this way. she is in a hazard. she would like to know what the grass and ground is like but is not allowed to make practice swings. Normally we watch pros test swings to see how it feels before real swing.
They are not allowed to test that. She made first swing from water in hazard and after she is standing there..perfectly in balance..and lets the club fall down twice...in what could in theory allow her to test the conditions for her next swing in the grass.

now what you and i and most amateurs feel is cruel..is that she likely..didnt mean to and she also did it for split seconds.
but how do you police that if you dont have an iron clad rule that you cannot test it?
what..do you allow her to do it..because it was only twice..and likely by accident..but who knows?..and it was only for mere seconds..so what..the guy wanting to tamp down his iron several times for ten minutes straight is wrong? but a few seconds by her is ok?

u got to look at it that way..you cannot have rules that are open to interpretation...what ..a ten second rule like dropping food on the floor before you eat it? no grounding..period..........i dont know how anyone could disagree.

dprotech
Mar 29, 2010, 12:22 PM
What happens if I spot a titleist pro v1 ball in the water hazard and decide i'm going to fish it with my wedge. Am I entitled to a 2 stroke penalty?:eek:

Bern
Mar 29, 2010, 12:35 PM
i have seen the video now..man..she is as sad as ever...she is a 20 yr old woman now..not a teenager..yet she sounds like a 13 yr old valley girl..um..ok..like..u r not letting me splain myself..um...etc

re you above not like the rule? ok...look at it this way. she is in a hazard. she would like to know what the grass and ground is like but is not allowed to make practice swings. Normally we watch pros test swings to see how it feels before real swing.
They are not allowed to test that. She made first swing from water in hazard and after she is standing there..perfectly in balance..and lets the club fall down twice...in what could in theory allow her to test the conditions for her next swing in the grass.

now what you and i and most amateurs feel is cruel..is that she likely..didnt mean to and she also did it for split seconds.
but how do you police that if you dont have an iron clad rule that you cannot test it?
what..do you allow her to do it..because it was only twice..and likely by accident..but who knows?..and it was only for mere seconds..so what..the guy wanting to tamp down his iron several times for ten minutes straight is wrong? but a few seconds by her is ok?

u got to look at it that way..you cannot have rules that are open to interpretation...what ..a ten second rule like dropping food on the floor before you eat it? no grounding..period..........i dont know how anyone could disagree.


No one is arguing that she broke the rule by grounding the club. Clearly the club was grounded, the question is whether or not she did so in order to regain her balance. If you look at a longer segment of video you can see she does in fact lean on the club. In the end of the segment shown she is moving her hand over the butt end of the club to keep balance when extricating herself from the water. So now we have a clear violation of an objective rule, but a subjective determination of whether or not she was in balance or not. Makes for good controversy and a lot of hits to the Golf channels web site. Makes me wonder why the video doesn't show her getting out of the water.

So how could I disagree? Easy, it's a subjective call.:cool:

Bern
Mar 29, 2010, 12:36 PM
What happens if I spot a titleist pro v1 ball in the water hazard and decide i'm going to fish it with my wedge. Am I entitled to a 2 stroke penalty?:eek:


If you're ball is in the margin of the hazard then yes.