Re-shafting clubs

[Ego Woods]

I am looking to re-shaft some of my clubs for the 2005 season and just want to get some background info on the type of costs I can expect for the analysis (fitting for proper shaft and size) as well as the actual shaft and re-shafting. Also any recommendations on shaft brands would be great!

[SW20 MR2]

Shaft choice is highly dependent on your swing. Once you have your swing analyzed, the golf pro will be able to make recommendations on which shaft is right for you.

[Ego Woods]

Shaft choice is highly dependent on your swing. Once you have your swing analyzed, the golf pro will be able to make recommendations on which shaft is right for you.
errr, thx SW....I'm more looking at the type of price I can expect....even a range would be helpful......

[jsunsun]

I believe custom fitting for one wood is ~30$cdn. If you know what specifications you want and simply need installation labour, prob ~10-15$.

[Shadow]

I am looking to re-shaft some of my clubs for the 2005 season and just want to get some background info on the type of costs I can expect for the analysis (fitting for proper shaft and size) as well as the actual shaft and re-shafting. Also any recommendations on shaft brands would be great! A few things to consider, for irons in particular:
1. Do you want steel or graphite?
2. Do you currently hit the ball too high or too low for your liking? A Rifle shaft will get the ball up a little better whereas a Dynamic Gold will encourage a lower shot.
3. Do you have a fast swing with a rather quick acceleration from the top, or a smooth swing with a gradual acceleration. Even though with both swings, the club head arrives at the ball at the same speed, the former would be better off with a "STIFF"er shaft while the latter, a more "REGULAR" one.
4. For your own information, I have charts that will determine proper length via wrist crease to floor measurement and you height in inches. If you want send me those two measurements and I will get you a suggested length.

Costs for reshafting will vary tremendously, depending on whom you choose to do the work. When I do this I normally charge $12 to $15 plus the cost of the shaft for irons, and I always offer to show the golfer my bills to ensure him/her that he/she is not being ripped off. For some drivers I will charge more as there can be a little more work or risk reshafting some of these. Shafts cost also vary a lot. Usually they cost the club maker $10 to $20 for steel and $15 and up for graphite. Some clubmakers will charge more for thru bore clubs like some Callaways as they are a real b***h to do.

If you are thinking of stepless steel shafts, I would now recommend Mercury Savage Stepless shafts. They are soooooo well made.

A good graphite shaft is the Mercury Pro Kevlar or an SK Fiber Tour trac 80 or 90. These guys are also superbly manufactured.

[SW20 MR2]

Here's a CDN site with some pricing:

https://www.golfoundry.com/cdn/cdn-index.htm

errr, thx SW....I'm more looking at the type of price I can expect....even a range would be helpful......

[mikejb]

Shadow:
If you are thinking of stepless steel shafts, I would now recommend Mercury Savage Stepless shafts. They are soooooo well made.
A good graphite shaft is the Mercury Pro Kevlar or an SK Fiber Tour trac 80 or 90. These guys are also superbly manufactured.

Why? I ask this question only on the basis of I have never heard of any of this equipment before, now this does not mean anything about the quality of the product, god 5 years ago I have never heard of GolfSmith either. What makes the Mercury Graphites any better of a product versus the UST Irod shafts (http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=3926I&cseq=~C279321&fcst=GSI_WEB&lcode=cm_279321_lp] UST Competition Series 75 Iron Shaft [/url] for your irons or the Rifles versus the Mercury Steel shafts?

As far as the original question since the other guys have stepped in with all the right questions to ask when thinking about reshafting I will give you my experience.
I had Dynamic Gold Super Light - Stiff in my irons for the longest time and replaced them with Rifle 6.0, and thank goodness I did, what a difference it made for my ball flight and club head impact. I generate a lot of club head speed and have very fast hands, and these shaft have helped a great deal. I also have the [url="http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=3898W&cseq=~C279310~M279404&fcst=GSI_WEB&lcode=cm_279310_lp) in both my 3 and 5 woods and from the enjoyment of using them I am thinking of putting them in my 3,4, and 5 iron. I am also thinking about buying the UST Irod driver shaft ("http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=4898W&cseq=~C279310~M279404&fcst=GSI_WEB&lcode=cm_279310_lp) when I get my new driver in the spring. I have also been using the UST Proforce 65 X for the last 3 seasons and it has been great to me.

[Ego Woods]

Thanks SW and Shadow......

My height is 6 feet (72 inches) and height from wrist crease to floor is 36"

Perfect symmetry..ahaha......

[Ego Woods]

Costs for reshafting will vary tremendously, depending on whom you choose to do the work. When I do this I normally charge $12 to $15 plus the cost of the shaft for irons, and I always offer to show the golfer my bills to ensure him/her that he/she is not being ripped off. For some drivers I will charge more as there can be a little more work or risk reshafting some of these. Shafts cost also vary a lot. Usually they cost the club maker $10 to $20 for steel and $15 and up for graphite. Some clubmakers will charge more for thru bore clubs like some Callaways as they are a real b***h to do.

and how much do u normally charge for a club fitting analysis? Just wanna use as a benchmark for when I do research around the GTA....it's a shame ur not in the area.....

[Shadow]

Thanks SW and Shadow......

My height is 6 feet (72 inches) and height from wrist crease to floor is 36"

Perfect symmetry..ahaha...... My charts indicate that your clubs should be of standard length. I use the current modern standard of a 38" length for a 5 iron with a steel shaft. Some clubmakers are still using the older 37.5" length for the same club.

Some clubmakers are using expensive launch monitor equipment for the fitting process and for that they charge a good fee for the fit. However, while I have been clubmaking for about 18 years, it is still a hobby for me, not a business, so when I meet with people on the range and look at the fitting factors, I charge nothing. If they buy, fine, if not, that is still fine too, as I just enjoy talking clubs and golf with people. So I really don't know what the going rate is, but whatever it is, IMO, it is probably going to be too high. :)

[Shadow]

Shadow:

Why? I ask this question only on the basis of I have never heard of any of this equipment before, now this does not mean anything about the quality of the product, god 5 years ago I have never heard of GolfSmith either. What makes the Mercury Graphites any better of a product versus the UST Irod shafts</a> in both my 3 and 5 woods and from the enjoyment of using them I am thinking of putting them in my 3,4, and 5 iron. I am also thinking about buying the UST Irod driver shaft (http://%22http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=4898W&cseq=%7EC279310%7EM279404&fcst=GSI_WEB&lcode=cm_279310_lp) when I get my new driver in the spring. I have also been using the UST Proforce 65 X for the last 3 seasons and it has been great to me. I have never done any work with the Irod shafts so I cannot comment on their quality, however, I recently received an order of Mercury shafts from a forum member, Jim Klassen of Kona Golf Sales. When I measured and profiled the frequencies of the Savage Stepless Steel shafts, I found that they were all the exact same weight, exact same butt frequencies and almost the exact same frequencies at the other 5 points along the shaft. I put them in my NF2 spine/bend finder and they showed almost 0 deflection. This means that they are straight and have no plane that is stiffer than another.

The Mercury Pro Kevlar graphite shafts that I also ordered showed similar results. No other shafts that I have ordered have been this consistent.

[mikejb]

Shadow, I was not in particular wondering about the UST's, but any "main stream" product. How do they relate and compare?

[Bogeybog]

Shadow, I was not in particular wondering about the UST's, but any "main stream" product. How do they relate and compare?For the money (and then some!) I have not found any better shafts than Mercury(both graphite and steel) and SK Fiber!!! I have compared them to UST Irod (Hybrid), Graffaloy Blue, Rifle, and TT just to name a few and have found their consistency and performance superior! I just shafted a 14* hybrid with the Irod (only because I wanted to build it at 41'' and neither the Merc or SK have a .370 shaft that is 41" long) and other than looking wonderful with the way it matches my deep burgundy head, I was extremely dispappointed to find that shaft had a much more prominent spine then the Mercury's I built for myself and others or the SK I iinstalled in my driver. I also had the Irod frequecy checked in several locations along the shaft and did find discrepencies. I am just experimenting with this club, so it's no big deal, but I certainly would not use the Irod, or the Blue (:eek: ) in any of my clubs. There are people who like them but I guess I am a little anal and do quite a bit of comparison and research. Not exactly sure what you mean by "main stream" unless you mean that they may not be carried by all the Big Box stores. Both shafts have tremendous reputations and following. My only suggestion would be to maybe be a little more selective with where you shop and not always do business with people whose only interest is volume.

[mikejb]

only [/b]interest is volume.
By "main stream" I was just trying to make a reference to an OEM brand I guess. I have never heard of either company before and was looking for a source of reference in comparison between what I know and what you folks have learned.

I am definitly one to read up on the products I purchase and make most of my purchases through places like golf smith not golf town. I go to golf town to try out stuff and get balls. I also buy through my local pro shops some times, espically at the end of the season when he needs the stuff gone.

[Ego Woods]

My charts indicate that your clubs should be of standard length. I use the current modern standard of a 38" length for a 5 iron with a steel shaft. Some clubmakers are still using the older 37.5" length for the same club.
thx for the help! I took that shaft length test/survey that is found on TaylorMade's official website and it said the same thing.....glad to get it verified by a real clubmaker!

[Bogeybog]

By "main stream" I was just trying to make a reference to an OEM brand I guess. I have never heard of either company before and was looking for a source of reference in comparison between what I know and what you folks have learned.

I am definitly one to read up on the products I purchase and make most of my purchases through places like golf smith not golf town. I go to golf town to try out stuff and get balls. I also buy through my local pro shops some times, espically at the end of the season when he needs the stuff gone.Mikejb, you can check out www.golfquip.com (http://www.golfquip.com) (the Canadian Dynacraft distributor), they carry SK Fiber shafts. Kona Golf (Kim Klassen, who is also a club builder) is the Canadian distributor for Mercury (www.mercurygolf.com (http://www.mercurygolf.com/)). On both the FGI and 4gea boards, there are dozens and dozens of extremely hightly respected (and high volume) clubfitters who swear by them (just do a search on either board).

I am not going to knock other shafts because there are many excellent shafts out there, but dollar for dollar, from my own experience, I have not come across anything better!

In my mind, there is no such thing as an OEM shaft. It is just a matter of larger marketing budgets (and larger conglomorate companies) that make some shafts to be more "visible" in the marketplace. There are a lot of shafts that are excellent to oustanding (some of them costing a small fortune) yet most people are not familiar with them. Accra (owned by UST and costing over $200 ea. for example), Accuflex, MCC Apache, Fuji, Purple Ice, Nipon, Agressive Frenzy etc. and each have their following and marketplace.

[mikejb]

Bogey, thank you for the education. I knew nothing about any of this.

[Shadow]

Those of us who do a little club making and peruse the technical websites have come to realize that there are some shafts that are just better made than others. The good news is that some of the major shaft manufacturers have assesssed their assembly process and are finally improving the quality of their shafts. In order for Mercury and SK Fiber to compete with the highly marketed shafts, they have made their shafts not only better than the rest, but a lot cheaper as well.

If a golf shaft is more expensive, let's say like the Graffaloy Prolite 35, many golfers think that it is better. What it really means is that Graffaloy's profit margin is higher, therefore they can spend more to market their shafts more, sell more and make more profit, etc.. Also, they can pay Tour pros to use their shafts in their clubs and hence, increase the market awareness. Companies like Mercury and SK are selling more shafts at this time, because of their quality.

Before recommending SK and now Mercury shafts to those for whom I made clubs, I used Graffaloy, Aldila, UST and Harrison products. As long as SK and Merc are around, I won't be recommending the others.

Perhaps another analogy would be to compare a set of Mizuno forged blades with TT Dynamic Gold S300 shafts, that sell for around $900 to $1000 at Golftown, to a set of Wishon 550M's. The Wishon's are as good or better and the last set I assembled, I sold for $550 which gave me about $120 for my work, which took about 3 hours. Just because it has a name or that some Tour player uses it, whether shaft or head, it does not necessarily mean that it is better.

[Ego Woods]

Shaft choice is highly dependent on your swing. Once you have your swing analyzed, the golf pro will be able to make recommendations on which shaft is right for you.
Shadow, is that above quote really true? Or are there enough diff't flex options for Mercury or SK Fiber that the choice of the shaft-brand doesn't necessarily depend on your swing.

[Bogeybog]

Shadow, is that above quote really true? Or are there enough diff't flex options for Mercury or SK Fiber that the choice of the shaft-brand doesn't necessarily depend on your swing.Ego Woods, while you are waiting for Shadow's response, maybe I can help by giving you some of my thoughts and experiences, FWIW.

Think of buying or chosing a shaft like buying a sound system. You wouldn't ask "what is the best sound system" because there are way too many variables and no one answer.

As far as flex is concerned, it is just an identifying name or letter put on a shaft by a manufacturer that describes a frequency range that really doesn't mean much without understanding some underlying principles.

Each raw shaft's butt frequency is measured on a frequency analyzer after it's manufactured and then assigned a letter to describe a range (for example a Mercury graphite wood R flex can range from 227 to 233 cpm's). Some shafts' range is larger then others and the frequencies can vary wildly from shaft to shaft with the same "flex" letter on it (and this is one of the reasons that I like Mercury shafts for example, because the exact frequency is identified for each shaft in addition to the flex letter and is guaranteed within 1 CPM). That is why a good club builder will frequency match your set of irons to a frequency slope. This simply means that in addition to frequency variations within a set of shafts, the frequency of each shaft naturally changes as well, because the length of each club decreases by 1/2 inch going from club to club and the weight increases by 7 grams from club to club. The club builder will select shafts that match in frequency and then will build the clubs to a consistent frequency slope (as they are trimmed and and as the club head weight increases) so that they all feel similiar when you swing them.

Now chosing a shaft for a specific driver, for example, some of the variable you have to contend with are:

Your Characteristics: Shot pattern, (left/right/straight, low/high, consistent/inconsistent). Swingspeed. Swing tempo (swinger or hitter). Distance yuo hit and carry your current driver. Etc. Then you have to clearly identify for yourself what you are trying to achieve with a new shaft.

Feel: What type of shaft do you prefer? Some prefer a lively, stiffer feeling shaft, while others prefer a softer but heavier feeling shaft.

Shaft Criteria: Bend/Kickpoint, Stiffness (both of the shaft itself and the tip of the shaft which affects the release), Weight and Torque are all variables that effect the feel AND ballflight.

Aestethics: Will the shaft look good to you and match your driver head. Sounds trivial but you would be surprised by how many people select a shaft based solely on colour. Then again, if the shaft meets all your criteria, would you be willing to play your red driver head on the end of an orange shaft?

Price: You can spend anywhere from $15 to more then $250 for a shaft. Are you looking for the most bang for your buck, or do you simply want the cheapest or the most expensive?

Now getting back to SK Fiber and Mercury Shafts. Each company has 3 or 4 different shafts for both irons and woods (eg: Mercury: Performance (or Performance Plus), Savage, Pro Kevlar, NiccoLite (as well as the Savage steel iron shaft) SK Fiber: Lite Revolution 2, Pure Energy, Tour Trac 80, 90 & 100s) that not only cover all the frequency ranges (or flexes in laymen's terms) but vary in: weight (anywhere from about 60 grams to 100 grams), tip stiffness, torque (again, anywhere from 3.0 to 4.5 or so), kick point (from low to mid, mid/low, mid/high to high) and general feel and playing characteristics depending on the head they are attached to!

:) :) :)

[mikejb]

Guys, great reviews and explanations of the equipment. (High fives)

Can I see some reviews of the shafts? From other people?

If they are so great...why?.....
If they should be in your ____ why are they not?
etc...

I beleive you guys, and I am not sold on one brand of club, or shaft. But just to add a grain of salt to everything, why should I take your word for anything you are saying on an internet forum, as more than paided salesman/rep for the company?

I am the "put it in my hands and I will tell you what I think" type.

I hope at this hour I am making sense.

[Dormie]

a good site to read is freegolfinfo.com
also golfsmith.com for a supply source

golfsmith has a clubfitters retail location
on kennedy just north of 401 in mississauga
with a very knowledgeable and helpful manager

and with all due respect again
mercury isn't oem in my mind

oem in shafts are true temper, grafalloy, UST, rifle precision,
fujikura, aldila, graphite design, penley

as far as cost go
steel iron shafts can cost $10-20/30 each
wood graphite can be had for $10 to $300+ for fujikura speeders

i would suggest you select an oem brand
there is very little economic savings not to,
and performance is paramount
as most would agree that the shaft is the engine of any club

spring is around the corner
days are getting longer.....................:)

[Shadow]

An OEM golf club is one assembled at a company's factory and available through a golf supply retailer. Titleist, Tayor Made, Mizuno, and so on, are obvious examples. A set of OEM forged irons retail for $800 to $1100 in a place like GolfTown. You cannot buy the OEM heads and assemble the clubs yourself.

Next, there are companies who make component heads. I call these companies OEC's as they are "Original Equipment Components" that come from companies like Wishon Golf Technology, Golfsmith, Golfworks and Dynacraft. The heads are "patented." Many of their heads lines are made for the newer or higher handicapped golfer, however, each company has heads suitable for the very low handicapped players as well. The Wishon 550C's and 550M's are examples and are every bit as good or better than an OEM forged head. And at a fraction of the price. I paid $34.53 each for my latest order of 550's.

Thirdly, there are clones or knockoffs which are cheap imitations mainly of OEM's, and occasionally of the OEC's. Companies like Hireko who make the ACER, System 3000 & 5000 stuff, are examples. There are NOT made from the same alloys nor are they made in the same foundaries, with an occasional exception. The clones are cheap, suitable IMO for the occasional golfer, who wishes NOT to pay very much for his clubs.

Golf shafts are either proprietary or after market. For example, Callaway has its Memphis 10 shafts. They are made for Callaway and CANNOT be purchased individually. If you want this kind of shaft replaced the club must be sent back to the company for replacement, for obvious reasons. All other shafts are after market shafts. TT's Dynamic Gold, Rifles, UST, Graffaloy, Aldila, Penley, Harisson, Mercury, SK Fiber, AJ Tech, Accuflex, Fujikura are examples. Some of these companies make proprietary shafts for the OEM's companies, however, most of these companies shafts can be purchased by anyone. Also, a good portion of OEM clubs have after market shafts in their irons. Proprietary shafts are not better than the after market ones, just a little different.

To my point. There are no OEM shafts. If you think that just because it has a well known name, like those listed above, that the shaft is better made, you are mistaken. If you think that just because a shaft is expensive, that it is better made, you are mistaken. If you think that a $300 Fujikura or Accuflex is going to perform better than an $60 SK Fiber Lite Revolution, you are very, very mistaken. $300 shafts are absolute ripoffs. In fact, anything over $100 is a ripoff.

Now, admittedly, some well known shaft manufacturers may make shafts that have a frequency profile that is better suited to your swing, but it is not better for you because of who made it or how much it costs.

From Dormie's comment/opinion above, "i would suggest you select an oem brand-there is very little economic savings not to-and performance is paramount-as most would agree that the shaft is the engine of any club" I would agree only with the last point. The inference that less expensive shafts perform less than optimum or that expensive shafts perform better, is an opinion, based on my personal experience, that I do not share. However, a large number of golfers believe this and that is fine.

If someone wants to play with a Mizuno MP-33, steel shafted iron for $143.75 per club, tax included, they will play twice as well as I will with my $60.24, SK Fiber graphite shafted Wishon 550M iron.

[el tigre]

Can I see some reviews of the shafts? From other people?

If they are so great...why?.....
If they should be in your ____ why are they not?
etc...

I beleive you guys, and I am not sold on one brand of club, or shaft. But just to add a grain of salt to everything, why should I take your word for anything you are saying on an internet forum, as more than paided salesman/rep for the company?

I am the "put it in my hands and I will tell you what I think" type. First, use the GolfQuip/Manufacturer sites to narrow down your choices based on YOUR shot characteristics and preferences and how you want to influence them. For example, even with my driver I'm a high ball hitter that wants to bring my ball flight down - so the SK Fibre Pure Energy may be a great shaft but probably not suited to me. For me, the Lite Revolution I would be more appropriate. You need to go through the same process to narrow it down to the top 10.

Oh, I would also recommend you consider Accuflex shafts. Another top quality manufacturer: http://www.accuflexgolf.com/

In Ottawa we can go to the GolfWorks retail location, and they have all kinds of demo clubs with different shafts on different heads. Nice place to go and get a feel for different shafts. Golfsmith in Toronto may have a similar setup. It would be worth checking out.

FWIW, here are the non-stock driver graphite shafts I've tried and liked (in alphabetical order):

Accuflex Assassin - very nice shaft, a little pricey, big on the long drive tour, bright red colour can be an issue.
Accuflex C.A.S. - new "economy" offering is an excellent quality shaft at a very good price, soft tip yet solid feel (a pleasant surprise), really helps to keep the ball in the fairway
Aldila NV65 - great feeling shaft that also keeps dispersion down, rather expensive, lime green colour can be an issue
Mercury Savage - solid feel, great value, virtually spineless, the head I had it in didn't work for me but I should have pulled the shaft and kept it
True Temper BiMatrx - the original tip-stiff shaft, graphite with a steel tip section, expensive when they first came out but very affordable now, Rxi model for low launch and Rocket for higher trajectory. It just works for me.

FWIW, shafts I didn't like include:
Aldila One - just didn't like the feel at all, seemed inconsistant. YMMD
Graffaloy ProLite - didn't suit my swing at all. I'm a swinger, not a hitter. Also feels a lot lighter than 62 grams to me.
True Temper EI70 - very "boardy", really geared to strong hitters, they have a newer version which is supposed to be better
UST Proforce 65 - the first one a got I liked, tip-stiff for a low trajectory, feel was OK, subsequent ones have been very harsh and boardy, quality control seems to be an issue with them.

Of course, you probably have a different swing then me so take my results for what they are worth. If you know your swing speed, characteristics (hitter vs swinger, tempo, etc.) and what you want in ball flight, then you could post a question on the GEA or FGI sites. A lot of clubfitters hang out there that can give you a lot of useful suggestions.

[Bogeybog]

a good site to read is freegolfinfo.com
also golfsmith.com for a supply source

golfsmith has a clubfitters retail location
on kennedy just north of 401 in mississauga
with a very knowledgeable and helpful manager

and with all due respect again
mercury isn't oem in my mind

oem in shafts are true temper, grafalloy, UST, rifle precision,
fujikura, aldila, graphite design, penley

as far as cost go
steel iron shafts can cost $10-20/30 each
wood graphite can be had for $10 to $300+ for fujikura speeders

i would suggest you select an oem brand
there is very little economic savings not to,
and performance is paramount
as most would agree that the shaft is the engine of any club

spring is around the corner
days are getting longer.....................:)Okay, just to get this straight, In you mind, does oem NOT stand for Original Equipment Manufacturer? Just because YOU are familiar with the names you mentioned does not make them OEM. I strongly suggest that company representatives from and customers of Accullex, Rapport, Harmon, Graman, Accra, Harrison, MCC Apache, Nipon, SK Fiber, Mercury etc. would vehemently disagree with your misguided viewpoint. What difference does whether YOU think a Mercury shaft is OEM or not make in the fact that for $20 or less they are built to as good or better tolerances then a $65 UST 65 ATR! Again, the whole notion of whether a shaft is oem or not is quite pointless, (and I would like to refer you back to Shadow's response).

As someone who builds clubs, spine tests each and every shaft and have had numerous clubs tested on frequency analyzers to check for tolerances, who has talked to numerous club builders, have played with and discussed with people who play different shafts, I only tried to share my findings and experience about two makers or shafts that dollar for dollar are better built then any other shaft I have come across. As I stated in my earlier post, there is no such thing as "the best shaft". It is a personal decision. But if I am going to spend my money, I don't give a <admin snip> whether someone considers the shaft oem or not, I want the shaft that I know from first hand analysis and experience is the best I can buy for my money. For the record, club building is a hobby for me and I have absolutely no affiliation, or financial gain from any golf related manufacturer.

As a side note, I deal with several suppliers, including Golfsmith in Missisissauga because of the convenience of their retail outlet in the GTA. I can drive there if I am in the west end and I want something in a hurry, but I do find their prices fairly expensive.

And again, just for the record, yes you can spend $325 -$350 for a Fujikura Speeder, but you can also spend $550 for an Accra SE 80 (but hey, they are not oem because they are not on your list so obviously they don't perform)!

[Shadow]

Shadow, is that above quote really true? Or are there enough diff't flex options for Mercury or SK Fiber that the choice of the shaft-brand doesn't necessarily depend on your swing. Bogeybog is very knowledgeable about shafts and shaft fitting and has just saved me a lot of time. Thanks.

I would add only these points.

1) The shaft that you select must be suited to you and how you swing regardless of the company who makes the shaft. There is, IMO, for example, an SK Fiber shaft that would suit any golfer that I have either played with or have made clubs for. (I do not work for SK or Merc or anyone else for that matter, except my wife.)

2) Flex designations on a shaft are generally meaningless as there is no established frequency standard for L, A, R, S, and X flexes. One companies A is another's R which is anothers X. Also, the designations refer to the butt flex only and not the mid and/or tip flexes, both of which have as much to do with the flight and direction of the ball, as the butt. The worst shafts that I have seen are the stock shafts that you will find many OEM drivers, Titleist and Taylor Made topping the list. I have seen "R" and "S" Titleist shafts that are a soft "L" flex. And the golfer wondered why he couldn't hit the club. Why they put a poorly made shaft in an expensive club is beyond me. Just kidding. The reason, $$$$, is obvious.

3) Traditionally, the difference between irons is .5" in length, 7 grams of head weight and the irons are swingweight matched. "Every" male golfer plays with D2 irons. Would you believe that my irons range from C4 to D3 in swingweight, range from .4" to .65" difference in length, have head weights that are not 7 g apart, have lead tape wrapped around the shaft at 14" and 4.5" from the butt end, have identical balance points, and have the total weight exactly the same. Among other things, they are MOI, or Moment of Inertia matched clubs, and are the best swinging/feeling clubs that I have ever used. MOI matching is beneficial and perhaps the subject of another thread.

4) Kickpoint is a very minor factor in the fitting of a shaft and in the flight of the ball. About 1 degree.

[Mok]

this is all excellent information.

i must admit, i always thought the more expensive the equipment, usually it's better. this is from playing other sports. i guess in golf, this is not true.

definitely, personal preference is the most important.

[Gentle Ben]

If yur looking for a good place to have this type of work done I can highly reccomend McMahn Golf & 7370 Woodbine Ave. Unit 23. Yhey have been in business for 30 odd years and know what they are doing. You have been given a lot of info on reshafting etc.

Gord or Mike at McMahn will take you through the steps. I think a fitting for swing speed and launch angle is 55.00 and they apply that to the final cost.
Good Luck. Gentle Ben

[Bogeybog]

If yur looking for a good place to have this type of work done I can highly reccomend McMahn Golf & 7370 Woodbine Ave. Unit 23. Yhey have been in business for 30 odd years and know what they are doing. You have been given a lot of info on reshafting etc.

Gord or Mike at McMahn will take you through the steps. I think a fitting for swing speed and launch angle is 55.00 and they apply that to the final cost.
Good Luck. Gentle Ben
I totally agree, McMahon Golf are one of the top club fitters in the GTA and I have mentioned them in another post. I haven't dealt with them in 5 years so I am not sure which shafts they carry besides some of the more expensive (and not necessarily better, imho) graphite shafts in the marketplace. Mike built my first set of custom irons with Rifle shafts that I will still have.

[gbrgolf]

Hi Ego,
I just wanted to throw my humble $0.02 worth into this thread that's gone on a few directions.
First, I couldn't agree more that you should get fitted as (price aside) not all shafts are made for everyone (steel or graphite). Between the company I co-own and the companies I represent, we make graphite shafts that range from $10.00 - $500.00. Anyone who says that there is no difference between the technology and materials in a $10.00 - $40.00 shaft and a $100.00+ shaft is not representing any of the manufactures correctly. This is not to say a less expensive shaft may not be the best for you, there are still numerous Tour Pros using ProForce Golds, EI 70's, and ProLites...all can be had for less than premium prices.
It is in your best interest to try different products and see what works best for you!
Any good ClubFitter, will be able to make suggestions based on the many variables that effect ball flight within your swing (one cannot fit on swing speed alone!), and then it is up to you to determined what "feels" and performs the best.
When considering graphite, don't concern yourself with flex designation. New techologies in shaft design allow for different stiffnesses with in a shaft to create unique ball flight characteristics. I think someone mentioned the iRod having different cpm's within the shaft.....well that's what it is designed to do. The butt section on iRoDs are incredibly soft yet the tip section is quite firm....that's why it is a hybrid specific shaft (#1 on Tour for virtually every PGA event in the last 14 months).
Quick note....other than Aldila, Apache and maybe True Temper, no one pays players to use shafts on Tour (even those guys only pay a couple of players!). Tour players use what works best for them....but that is certainly not what is always best for you!
As for the OEM conversation...with regards to graphite and steel....major manufacturers (Cally, TM, Ping, etc.) approach shaft companies with specific specs and specific pricing. Whether it be UST, Fuji, or anyone else, if they want the contract they must develop a shaft that hits those numbers. Due to the pricing, usually slightly lower modulas materials (or prepreg) is used. But remember the designs that the majors use are for the masses (usually softer tips and higher torques), someone mentioned TM's were soft....well they wanted them that way for their consumer. Just a few years ago Rifle 5.5's were considered Reg flex, then Cally and TM made them standard but wanted much softer flexes....now everyone considers 4.5 to be a reg. Just the way the market has gone!
Due to the pricing that "OEM's" demanded, the quality of most proprietary shafts were inferior to the "aftermarket" shafts available. This is now changing as the public has become more knowledgable, and most OEM's offer aftermarket shafts for little or no upcharge.
Having said all of this, you've recieved lots of good advise from many sources, as well as some great leads to some excellent Club Fitters. I just don't believe in pigeon holing you into any particular product. For anyone to say that "$300.00 shafts are a rip off" is also the one that says they will never aspire to own a plasma TV, the fact is (in every industry), state of the art stuff comes at a premium price. That's certainly not to say that you should even consider a $300.00 shaft, but why not test one (along with others) and see if there is a difference.
Go see a Fitter, get yourself on a launch monitor, try some different brands (and price ranges), and see what works best for you. Results on a monitor or on a range don't lie and "feel" is all up to you!
Just my $0.02 worth...hey someones got to have a different opinion....that's what forums are for!
GBR

[laxgolf]

Hi Ego,
I just wanted to throw my humble $0.02 worth into this thread that's gone on a few directions.
First, I couldn't agree more that you should get fitted as (price aside) not all shafts are made for everyone (steel or graphite). Between the company I co-own and the companies I represent, we make graphite shafts that range from $10.00 - $500.00. Anyone who says that there is no difference between the technology and materials in a $10.00 - $40.00 shaft and a $100.00+ shaft is not representing any of the manufactures correctly. This is not to say a less expensive shaft may not be the best for you, there are still numerous Tour Pros using ProForce Golds, EI 70's, and ProLites...all can be had for less than premium prices.
It is in your best interest to try different products and see what works best for you!
Any good ClubFitter, will be able to make suggestions based on the many variables that effect ball flight within your swing (one cannot fit on swing speed alone!), and then it is up to you to determined what "feels" and performs the best.
When considering graphite, don't concern yourself with flex designation. New techologies in shaft design allow for different stiffnesses with in a shaft to create unique ball flight characteristics. I think someone mentioned the iRod having different cpm's within the shaft.....well that's what it is designed to do. The butt section on iRoDs are incredibly soft yet the tip section is quite firm....that's why it is a hybrid specific shaft (#1 on Tour for virtually every PGA event in the last 14 months).
Quick note....other than Aldila, Apache and maybe True Temper, no one pays players to use shafts on Tour (even those guys only pay a couple of players!). Tour players use what works best for them....but that is certainly not what is always best for you!
As for the OEM conversation...with regards to graphite and steel....major manufacturers (Cally, TM, Ping, etc.) approach shaft companies with specific specs and specific pricing. Whether it be UST, Fuji, or anyone else, if they want the contract they must develop a shaft that hits those numbers. Due to the pricing, usually slightly lower modulas materials (or prepreg) is used. But remember the designs that the majors use are for the masses (usually softer tips and higher torques), someone mentioned TM's were soft....well they wanted them that way for their consumer. Just a few years ago Rifle 5.5's were considered Reg flex, then Cally and TM made them standard but wanted much softer flexes....now everyone considers 4.5 to be a reg. Just the way the market has gone!
Due to the pricing that "OEM's" demanded, the quality of most proprietary shafts were inferior to the "aftermarket" shafts available. This is now changing as the public has become more knowledgable, and most OEM's offer aftermarket shafts for little or no upcharge.
Having said all of this, you've recieved lots of good advise from many sources, as well as some great leads to some excellent Club Fitters. I just don't believe in pigeon holing you into any particular product. For anyone to say that "$300.00 shafts are a rip off" is also the one that says they will never aspire to own a plasma TV, the fact is (in every industry), state of the art stuff comes at a premium price. That's certainly not to say that you should even consider a $300.00 shaft, but why not test one (along with others) and see if there is a difference.
Go see a Fitter, get yourself on a launch monitor, try some different brands (and price ranges), and see what works best for you. Results on a monitor or on a range don't lie and "feel" is all up to you!
Just my $0.02 worth...hey someones got to have a different opinion....that's what forums are for!
GBR
That's a great post. Very informative.

[Shadow]

Gawain,

It may be presumptuous on my part, but a $500 graphite shaft should perform better than a $20 graphite shaft, if both have the same characteristics that are suited for my swing. So what should I get in real terms from the more expensive one? Much greater distance or much greater accuracy? The only other factor that is of importance is ball trajectory and making the tip stiffer will lower that. I don't see where an excessively high, extra manufacturing cost, comes in to do that. If there are really huge performance differences from these expensive shafts, I would love to know what they are.

A graphite is nothing more than the sum of its torque, flex and bend profile. and it is not necessary for anyone to have to spend $500 to get these. I understand that nanotechnology is used by some manufacturers and that process is probably more expensive. Nanotechnology will allow shafts to me made with lighter weights, less than 50 grams, and stiffer in the tip section at the same time. This is good for a small number of golfers and yes, these shafts may be a little more expensive. But technology is already making shafts stiffer in the tip. Also, with nanotechnology the ratio of resin to graphite will be different, so the feel will probably change. Big deal. It's only performance that counts.

Let's assume a 50% markup on graphite shafts from manufacturing to consumer. A $20 Mercury Savage costs $10 to make so a $500 ACCRA, ACCUFLEX or FUJIKURA would then cost $250 to make? I don't believe this. IMO, based on my readings, there is no graphite shaft being produced today that should cost the public more than $100 to $120 Canadian retail and that the expensive $500 shafts just increase your bottom line because there are still many, if not most golfers, who falsely believe that the more expensive a golf product is, the better it is. If your profits are greater, you can market the product more, consequently sell more product and make more money.

I have an expensive Accuflex shaft in one of my SMT drivers and a "cheap" SK Fiber Lite Revolution shaft in the other, and there is zero difference in performance. My third SMT driver has the $20 Mercury Savage in it and based on indoor Dome practice and swing speed measurement, it is the better of the 3 as the desired trajectory is a little lower than the other two, with similar swing speeds and similar accuracy.

On one thing we do agree, stock shafts are of less than ideal quality. Based on many readings from my frequency analyzer, "R" and "S" designated shafts in many clubs that I have checked or reshafted are really "L's". A friend's new Hogan Apex 3 steel shafts in forged heads frequencied again at an "L" flex. This misleading of the public to increase profit margins is reprehensible. Why can't the manufacturers just be honest and give golfers what they need?

BTW: We have met at Cataraqui a couple of times and I have known your successor since he was a kid in Stan Kolar's Pro shop. Good luck in your new position.

[gbrgolf]

Hi Shadow,
I generally do not like to use these forums to promote my products, but I do like to "set the record straight" when it comes to others misrepresenting my (or others) products.
First I think we must agree to disagree, as I am never going to convince you to change your opinion. Just as there are many that do not see the value in a Mercedes or a composite Hockey stick, that's why there are so many choices out there.
I will, however make a few comments, I agree that a $500.00 shaft is not for everyone, this is why there is ACCRA technology (the Tour Series) for under $100.00 US$ and why UST produces shafts at ALL price ranges....and why Mercury and other manufactures that target that price point exist.
Regarding technology....ACCRA's benefits include extremely low torque combined with an active tip section, what this promotes is an initial high launch combined with a low spin rate (boring flight). This can only be accomplished by using up to 9 different Prepregs in a particular shaft (most shafts use 3-5), also we use 80 ton material (all prepregs from Japan...aerospace stuff), this increases the hoop strength and gives the user a feeling of stability but the increased clubhead speed associated with an active tip. Using less expensive technology, you just stiffen the tip section to lower the torque...resulting in lower ball flights and a "boardy" feel...as I think you mentioned.
To pat our product on the back for a second....65 PGA Tour players used ACCRA shafts in 2004 (shaft was introduced at the Byron Nelson in April 2004), and not one was paid. Guys like Miguel Jimenez used our least expensive shaft to win numerous times.
As for your comments on "Nano" technology...I'll try to shed some light! Although pricing has dropped significantly in recent years...Nano still sells for about $500.00 per gram in it's raw form, if you do the math, you can figure out how much Nano goes into a 65 gram shaft! Actually what companies (including UST) do is mix some Nano "dust" into the resin (glue) to increase the strength and lower the weight of the resin. Your correct, as in the future (not now) as pricing continues to drop we may see some super light 30 gram shafts that are quite stable due to Nano...but not yet!
I think it's great that the $20.00 Mercury shaft works well for you...I apologize, as I don't want this post to be considered an ad for any of my products (I guess I'm too late for that, huh!). My belief is that no club-fitter should pre determined any type (or price) of shaft (especially by chat line post), but should have an open mind and allow the consumer to test all different products to make an educated choice. Our job is to help lead them in the right direction.
I just met with a mutual aquainance of ours today, and I am aware that you are extremely good and knowledgable at what you do and that you would never lead someone down the wrong path. So I certainly don't mean to be critical, we just happen to have different views.
With regards to "OEM" (or proprietary) shafts, they are not bad because they are soft...they are just designed to be very forgiving for the targeted customer (usually players with slower swing speeds). We should all be happy that OEM's have taken this direction as it has opened the door for Professional (and knowledgable) Club-Makers, such as yourself.
The message I'm trying to get across, is get the best product for you, for some that will be a $20.00 product for others it my be a $100.00+ shaft...but I agree don't be fooled by hype....do what's best for your game.
BTW it's been 5 years since I've been at Cat, it's a great place...they've actually just hired a new Pro (great guy), I've been involved in this for a number of years now and love it!
GBR

[swaaain]

I must agrre with Gawain on his first post. What I recommend is to get fit for your shafts by a certified club fitter, and also, why not wait to get fit before you purchase a new set of sticks, most OEM's will offer other shafts from their own shafts. Companies like Taylor, Ping, Callaway, Nike, Hogan, MacGregor, ets offer most shafts available.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Swaaain

[haribo]

Well said, Gawain.
Funny this now the fourth forum where out pass is crossing ;-)

I play in my 4 wood a 107 gram heavy Fujikura shaft, HM-4, Tour only and yes very expensive IF you can get one. I tried a lot of shafts from light to heavy but there is absolute none that performs for me like the Fuji HM-4 does. None.

Frankly, I'd be a happy camper if i'd know of a $20 shaft that would do the same trick. Sorry, steal doesn't do it either. Trust me I tried.

In my 7wood I have currently a steal shaft. But only because I can't find anything better that would give me a nice weight progression to the HM-4.
The HM-4 is as I said 107gram and counterbalanced, the rifle I'm using is 126gram. I wished I could find something right in between (also counterbalanced) that in addition also would give me a little higher trajectory than steal does (=softer tip).

Too bad accra only gets up to 99gram (sc95) ... ;-)

haribo

[gbrgolf]

Hi Hairbo,
I'm going to have to think about this one ;-)
The trick is the counter balancing "thing"!
UST is currently setting up "Tour Shops" across the US, they will sell Tour shafts (heavier weights). The "Tour" iRod iand the Harmon are both counter balanced and both come in 100+ gram weights. I'll have to check with our Tour rep to check on the exact weights we still use.
We are also currently working on an ACCRA Hybrid, that will be available in .335 , .350, and .370 tips (somewhat of a scoop!), but I don't think the final version will be over 100 grams.
I'm not sure if the Mercury guys can help out, but their shafts are Filiment wound (at least the ones I know), which is usually excellent in the heavier weights (and obviously the price is right!), they may have something in that range.
I'll keep thinking and maybe I can think of something else!
Thanks for the inquiry.
GBR

[haribo]

Thanks Gawain.
Must admit I'm pretty much a shaft snob (Jeff probably told you already). Love my Fuji's and since recently I'm a fan of Accra. No offence but I doubt a Mercury or whatever, don't even like UST's (I know Accra is affiliated to them) can measure up.

Speaking of counterbalancing, as Jeff can attest I do my own little bid of counterbalancing with my driver shafts ... my 757 and with my Accra SC75 as well. I put a nice strip of leadtape just below the grip. That increases dead weight, plus it gives the club a nicely balanced feel. Swingweight is set to D6. Without that little trick my drivers would feel too head heavy.

haribo

[Shadow]

Gawain,

I do appreciate your comments and while I guess I am opiniated, sometimes newly learned information does change the way I look at things. I am a "fan" of Tom Wishon and what he has to say about this and other topics, and much of what I learned and think has been influenced by him.

I would love to try one of your more expensive ACCRA shafts just to see what it would do for my 59 year old, 100-105 mph swing speed, however, it would be an expensive experiment if there were no performance improvements.

It seems that many Tour players are using your product and that's great. Is it because one needs a much higher swing speed for the shaft to be effective for them. Is there a shaft in your line that would show some performance improvements for my modest swing speed? I cannot imagine 30 gram shaft hitting a ball and not shattering, however, with Nano, I guess it will come to pass. Will I need to win the lottery to be able to afford one?:)

I was not aware that you left the Cat 5 years ago, but I now realize that it has been 5 years since I played in the Clarica Seniors and even longer since playing in the Whig. I am assumimg that the mutual aquaintance is RB or RC, both of whom have met my "Shadow" whose picture in is the corner. I teamed up with them in the Monday practice round for the Canadian Seniors Championship in Brantford in September, and both are excellent players. RB and I have played in a number of tournaments dating back as much as 30 years. Being head pro at Cataraqui will be a challenge for MT, but after paying his dues for a long time, he deserves the chance to show his stuff at the Cat, which is still one of the best courses in Ontario.

Sounds like you are enjoying what you are doing and I wish you continued success.

LA

[gbrgolf]

Hey Shadow,
Tom Wishon is a brilliant Club Guy, and anyone whom has spoken with him or used his products will surely agree! (hey, we've got some love happening here!). So if you have been influenced by him, you picked a great guy!
Regarding ACCRA (Ok here comes another unsolicited sales pitch:rofl: ), I would never recommend anyone shell out $100.00 (or even $20.00) hard earned bucks with out testing a product. So please don't jump in the Chevy and buy any shaft 'cause of little old me (joke guys!:D ). Go see any of the guys mentioned in this thread (Swainer, McMahon's, Golf Quip, Golfsmith, or the Shadow) and test what they have to offer. if a club fitter doesn't have demo's for you to try, he/she's the wrong guy!:nono:
As for Tour and ACCRA...hey the coolest thing we have is the responsive tip....just fabulous for slower swing speeds. I would suggest however that you don't test the M5 flex that most Tour players use! Fortunately, we offer M1, M2, and M3 flexes for us mere mortals. The softer flexes have extremely soft tip deflection readings yet the hoop strength from the materials used in construction give it a very stable feeling. Hey, Rich Beem (a seriously long hitter, used our Tour 50(gram) shaft most of last year).
Shadow, your right about MT...he'll be awesome at Cat...maybe we'll hook up for a game this summer!!
Being opinionated is good! That is what makes these forums so much fun! as you can probably tell, I'm a little opinionated too!
As for the original question, call any of the great club fitters listed above, and they'll look after you.
GBR

[swaaain]

Just an aside from my last post. Club fitting is one of the best ways to acheive consistency. Also, many people like getting fit in some of the "bi box stores" or the indour fitting centres. My only problem with it is, and many can disagree with me, but the whole reason to get fit is to abtain consistency. And Consitancy is a by product of proper head, shaft, lie angle, and grip size. This inturn gives you the ball flight, which is what club fitting is all about. If you are hitting a ball into a net 20 yards away from you, what ball flight do you see.

Now some willargue that they use lie tape to get the final result, but it is only a stepping stone, or starting point to completing the fit, the tape will show you how the club is grounding, but lkets say the person wishes to hit a draw but does't want to change their swing, you can help this with a more flat lie angle and vice versa. These are all aspects one must look at while fitting golf equipment.

Hope this helps a little more.

Swaaain