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Johnson
Nov 2, 2010, 09:49 PM
On yesterday's Golf Fix Breed was talking about the shoulder turn. He said he prefers 'turning your back to the target' rather than 'getting the left shoulder over the right knee' (for right handers). Any idea why he would go with that swing thought over the the other one. I was told "always get the shoulder behind the ball". When I get my back to my target I feel I lose my balance.

PingGolfer
Nov 2, 2010, 11:30 PM
getting the left shoulder over the right knee' (for right handers).
That sounds awkward to me.
The idea that your back should face the target on the backswing and that your belt buckle should face the target after the follow though is a good checkpoint for beginners.

duclam
Nov 3, 2010, 08:14 AM
This tip assumes you have a solid stance/base; rhythm; and maybe timing to accommodate it. If you loose your balance during any part of back-swing, that's a redflag.

4ems
Nov 3, 2010, 08:30 AM
Funny someone mentioned this particular section of Michael Breed's Golf Fix episode. I saw it in the morning and it was the remedy I was looking for with regards to my backswing. I've always initiated and continued to lead my backswing mainly with my arms. I think the second part, which I've been doing incorrecty, is where the back (bigger muscles) should take over. So on the range in the afternoon, I focused on starting the backswing as usual with my arms and then letting the back (turned away from the target) finish the turn. I felt a deeper separation between my middle section and my hips. This produced a faster clubhead speed without overswinging as my swing engaged the bigger muscles. It was a fix for me and without stating the obvious, your results may vary.

Bellyhungry
Nov 3, 2010, 08:40 AM
My back swing is based on a tip from a teaching pro: turn your shoulders till the club reach parallel to the ground and then finish it by lifting the arms.

I have never paid attention whether my back is facing the target or the left shoulder over the right knee.

I think different swing thoughts work for different people, the key is to find one that works for you.

Pubknight
Nov 3, 2010, 09:46 AM
If you "turn your shoulders", it is pretty easy to get your arms/shoulders moving independently of your torso, since your shoulders have a fair amount of movement within the shoulder sockets.
Turning your shoulders can also get your shoulders moving on a different plane than your spine angle (a problem for me that came up towards the end of the season).

Turning your back to the target could keep your torso and arms in better sync.
And also if you turn your back to the target, effectively turning your entire upper body, it would almost guarantee that your shoulders stay perpendicular to your spine angle, and everything moves away in "one piece".

But like Belly said, both thoughts have the same goal, it's just a matter of finding one that better conveys the proper message for a particular golfer.

NickStarchuk
Nov 3, 2010, 07:03 PM
Can we really turn our shoulders? They are attached to your upper torso/ribcage so when we see the shoulders turn, we are seeing the entire chest/ribcage/and upper back turn, so when Breed talks about turning your back to the target, it will help you feel a full upperbody turn rather than an attempt to turn your shoulders independant of something else.

But like it's been stated... what ever works!

The lead shoulder over the trail knee is the worst pivot advice going, and this is coming from most chiros and biomech-guys. I like this pic below... this could be what NOT to do.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs724.snc4/64398_1654228442027_1426548080_31774101_3297885_n. jpg

FullTiltGolf
Nov 3, 2010, 09:56 PM
Back to the target makes sense from a connection standpoint. Many golfers falsely create more turn and extension by protracting the scapula which not only isn't a good use of the big muscles but creates ball striking consistency problems. (lots of smaller moving parts makes it tougher from a timing perspective)

swingpure
Nov 3, 2010, 10:54 PM
Can we really turn our shoulders? They are attached to your upper torso/ribcage so when we see the shoulders turn, we are seeing the entire chest/ribcage/and upper back turn, so when Breed talks about turning your back to the target, it will help you feel a full upperbody turn rather than an attempt to turn your shoulders independant of something else.

But like it's been stated... what ever works!

The lead shoulder over the trail knee is the worst pivot advice going, and this is coming from most chiros and biomech-guys. I like this pic below... this could be what NOT to do.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs724.snc4/64398_1654228442027_1426548080_31774101_3297885_n. jpg

I only see two pictures, I would be interested in seeing pictures 3 and 4.

PingGolfer
Nov 4, 2010, 05:17 AM
I only see two pictures, I would be interested in seeing pictures 3 and 4.

Google is the bomb.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/3675-perfect-pivot-part-1-backswing.html

Golftime
Nov 4, 2010, 06:47 AM
My back swing is based on a tip from a teaching pro: turn your shoulders till the club reach parallel to the ground and then finish it by lifting the arms.

I have never paid attention whether my back is facing the target or the left shoulder over the right knee.

Works for me too. That is the D.J. Trahan swing. Very simple and easy on the body.

collidav
Nov 4, 2010, 10:20 AM
Can we really turn our shoulders? They are attached to your upper torso/ribcage so when we see the shoulders turn, we are seeing the entire chest/ribcage/and upper back turn, so when Breed talks about turning your back to the target, it will help you feel a full upperbody turn rather than an attempt to turn your shoulders independant of something else.




Nicely put Nick. Similar idea to Breen's instruction get into a reverse pivot position when trying to "turn their back to the target".

Your thoughts??

Shadow
Nov 4, 2010, 10:33 AM
Trying to turn one's back to the target moves the golfer to a position where only one eye (left one for righties) is on the ball. Since we normally use binocular vision to see best, suddenly, it's monocular vision. Would this not upset the balance centres of the brain and particularly, if one is right eye dominant, would our nonconscious try to move our bodies to a position where we can get both eyes on the ball? An upper body slide, a turn of the shoulders and arms outward, (reverse pivot) would probably be the result. So, regardless of the length of the backswing or the amount the upper body turns, having both eyes on the ball at the top of the backswing is essential.

Off the wall??

NickStarchuk
Nov 4, 2010, 11:26 AM
good stuff shadow. I have had 2 amazing instructors talk to me about the vision, and how we have to keep the same vision over the ball or our mind will have to re-callibrate on the down swing.

in my lessons, I rarely talk about a shoulder turn and I rarely talk about the back unless we're looking at a picture. As far as a players FEELS are concerned, a player can feel where their lead shoulder goes and can feel the chest expand. Both affect our visual of the back and shoulders moving.

What has to happen is that the words used to describe a movement have to mean the RIGHT thing to the player, so if a player can move well thinking 'back to the target', then its the right thing for them.

dekker
Nov 4, 2010, 01:50 PM
I think golfers have to be a little more discerning and not so accepting of a phrase. Some of this stuff is taken far too literally. Most of the instructional phrases are simply designed to evoke an image of a desired action and seldom the exact verbalized act itself.

For instance,"Turn your back to the target"- I mean really. Tell that to an arthritic 50 year old or to an absolute beginner who is likely to turn around and face away from the target entirely.:rofl:
Weight shift -Head down- lateral slide- clear the hips- wrist cock etc. most of these are clear as mud and entirely open to interpretation.
A friend of mine took lesson from a well known and respected coach whose thought on the swing was that it had to be a ordered sequence of positions. Yup, he got stuck in everyone of these at one time or another. He just couldn't play because he was so worried about breaking these cardinal positions. It took another season to get back to his old swing whose only fault was a prolonged pause at the top. He was embarrassed by it because everyone had told him it was wrong to pause at the top.

NickStarchuk
Nov 4, 2010, 07:20 PM
I think golfers have to be a little more discerning and not so accepting of a phrase. Some of this stuff is taken far too literally. Most of the instructional phrases are simply designed to evoke an image of a desired action and seldom the exact verbalized act itself.

For instance,"Turn your back to the target"- I mean really. Tell that to an arthritic 50 year old or to an absolute beginner who is likely to turn around and face away from the target entirely.:rofl:
Weight shift -Head down- lateral slide- clear the hips- wrist cock etc. most of these are clear as mud and entirely open to interpretation.
A friend of mine took lesson from a well known and respected coach whose thought on the swing was that it had to be a ordered sequence of positions. Yup, he got stuck in everyone of these at one time or another. He just couldn't play because he was so worried about breaking these cardinal positions. It took another season to get back to his old swing whose only fault was a prolonged pause at the top. He was embarrassed by it because everyone had told him it was wrong to pause at the top.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPphDSc6ZEE

Shadow
Nov 5, 2010, 08:32 AM
(1) Weight shift -Head down- lateral slide- clear the hips- wrist cock etc. most of these are clear as mud and entirely open to interpretation.
(2) A friend of mine took lesson from a well known and respected coach whose thought on the swing was that it had to be a ordered sequence of positions. Yup, he got stuck in everyone of these at one time or another. He just couldn't play because he was so worried about breaking these cardinal positions.
(2) I watched a home made video of Mac O'Grady demonstrating his swing motion and it consisted of, I believe, 7 positions, but they were positions positions to pass through while swinging. In order to learn a or improve one's swing, IMO, it is absolutely essential to go from one correct position to another using static positioning and slow motion "swings," before moving on to a full swing at full speed, WITHOUT hitting balls.. If you can't perform correctly this way, how can one expect to do so at full speed, WITH a ball? By using this kind of procedure one can eventually replace the existed subconscious swing, with an improved one, but it takes time and most gofers want a quick fix, which generally does not work. Balancing equally, slo mo and static swings, preferably in front of a full length mirror, consciously thinking about what one is doing, with four full swings without thinking about the swing, will result in improvement in the least amount of time.

While the "what" is obviously important to achieve the desired mechanical fundamentals, if the "how" closely correlates to how our brains actually work, when learning a physical skill, golfers would become better, faster.

I agree that what you described above in (1) "Weight shift -Head down- lateral slide- clear the hips- wrist cock etc.," unless used properly, just lead to frustration, confusing and minimal improvement.