Harrington DQ'd

[dlnljl]

Apparently moved his ball while removing the marker and did not count the two stroke penalty and signed an incorrect scorecard http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/8273207/Padraig-Harrington-disqualified-from-Abu-Dhabi-HSBC-Championship.html

[dekker]

Saints preserve us from these dark days.:rofl:
God would have just taken away his Guinness and made him drink Pabst for the duration.

[shaker1]

The real issue with this is that the penalty was issued AFTER the round. To me, when he signed his card after the round the score was correct. Maybe he desreves the 2 stroke penalty but not the DQ. Sometimes the rules of golf get in the way of themselves.

[Bartender]

What a shame. Best I've seen him swinging the club for a couple of years now.

[Bentley01]

This is an example of the rules going haywire.

Harrington was UNABLE to see the ball move, "with the naked eye". Yet, he was given the penalty, because a TV, SLOW MOTION replay found that his ball moved 3 dimples forward AND 1.5 dimples back (undetectable without the slo-mo). Harrington, rightly, honestly did not see the ball move away from its original spot. No one else caught it either.

When they formulated the rules, there is NO WAY they meant microscopic movements. One of the key components of the rules of golf is that the player is expected to honestly call penalties upon him/herself. If you cannot see infractions without a high-powered telescope, it didn't happen. If you don't agree, just wait until technology improves again. Just wait until they can PROVE that every single player misplaces his ball after marking. NASA-nerd, golf couch potatoes will now have full time jobs spotting 1 millimetre misplacements and speed-dialing the Tour official rules infraction hotline (if they can get through). Madness, I tell you.

I say couch potatoes, like the one that called this one in, should have someone stomp on their bags of chips and shake their cans of Coke (or Corona).:eek:

[hookminor]

I agree with Bentley...
I don't think that they should have used slow motion replay to determine this. They should have simply used a regular speed replay to see what Padraig would have seen at the time.
If they cannot detect any motion in regular speed and only through slo-mo, then how could the golfer possibly be expected to notice that it moved at all?

[wilson]

Paddy was stellar in his interview:

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2011/tournamentid=2011004/news/newsid=133215.html

But at the end of the day, it's not people calling in that annoys me - in this case it was slow motion that was used to determine the infringement. S l o w-M o t i o n

How about we put slo-mo on every 'b' player that grounds his club right behind the ball in the rough to flatten it before stepping in to his shot. If you can show lie improvement then DQ them. That is rife in the game (KP even has it on video on youtube) yet never gets called.
Slow motion? Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Bh-ZVAz48

Side Bar: Does Paddy have one of the best walks in the game? Man looks like he has somewhere to be NOW! GET OUT OF MY WAY!. He'll win again this year.

[Ignatius Reilly]

This is an example of the rules going haywire.

Harrington was UNABLE to see the ball move, "with the naked eye". Yet, he was given the penalty, because a TV, SLOW MOTION replay found that his ball moved 3 dimples forward AND 1.5 dimples back (undetectable without the slo-mo). Harrington, rightly, honestly did not see the ball move away from its original spot. No one else caught it either.

When they formulated the rules, there is NO WAY they meant microscopic movements. One of the key components of the rules of golf is that the player is expected to honestly call penalties upon him/herself. If you cannot see infractions without a high-powered telescope, it didn't happen. If you don't agree, just wait until technology improves again. Just wait until they can PROVE that every single player misplaces his ball after marking. NASA-nerd, golf couch potatoes will now have full time jobs spotting 1 millimetre misplacements and speed-dialing the Tour official rules infraction hotline (if they can get through). Madness, I tell you.

I say couch potatoes, like the one that called this one in, should have someone stomp on their bags of chips and shake their cans of Coke (or Corona).:eek:

Excuses, excuses, excuses.:mad:

It was clear as day once you watched the video a few times in high def and slow motion that his ball moved.:mad::mad:

People (note, I will not use the term "golfer", as you have proven yourself unworthy of it) like you just don't get it.:mad::mad::mad:

Until cheaters like Paddy, Villegas and Johnston are removed permanently from the game, I won't bother to watch it. There's just no point, what with all the deception (which should be a feature of the course, not the player) and such.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'd also like to see that Nicklaus fellow removed from the golf hall of fame, as he's revealed himself to be not much more than a trouble-maker who shows no respect for the rules, history or integrity of the game.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[dOubleO]

WHOA...you can only see it in slow-mo? I read the ESPN news and they didn't mention that.

I totally agree, if you can't see it with a naked eye then there should be no infraction. The rules were not made with technology in mind.

Villegas DQ...I somehow agree...but this one? Nope...worse case should just add the penalty strokes but not DQ him...

[Bentley01]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.:mad:

It was clear as day once you watched the video a few times in high def and slow motion that his ball moved.:mad::mad:

People (note, I will not use the term "golfer", as you have proven yourself unworthy of it) like you just don't get it.:mad::mad::mad:

Until cheaters like Paddy, Villegas and Johnston are removed permanently from the game, I won't bother to watch it. There's just no point, what with all the deception (which should be a feature of the course, not the player) and such.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'd also like to see that Nicklaus fellow removed from the golf hall of fame, as he's revealed himself to be not much more than a trouble-maker who shows no respect for the rules, history or integrity of the game.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

FINALLY, something you wrote that I can agree with!

Other than that, can I get you another bag of chips? Coke?:D

It's just no fun watching golf on a non-HDTV. You never know what's going on. A player could be making a great shot and it means nothing, because he's already made a horrendous blunder that will DQ him from the tournament. We might as well watch them hit shots on the range for three hours! There, the only rule is to be courteous to your fellow golfers!

[As long as you're not a midget or a basketball player, I believe we see eye to eye on a lot of things.]

[Bellyhungry]

I think Harrington should take this to the Supreme Court of Abu Dhabi/United Arab Emirates and see what the Sharia Law have to say in this matter.

[tasker]

I am thinking the DQ angle needs to be changed - I still don't understand how you can be DQ'd for signing a card that then changes is strange to me and I think this is driven from a time when such technology and viewer activity was not relevant. I think a penalty is warranted, but not DQ, just some strokes and enough strokes, say 4, to ensure that such activities are not covertly encouraged if not caught.

I think that the current plethora of DQs and call-ins will result in player taking a hyper cautious approach which will result in many reviews and clarifications and no one will win from that.

Me, I try to play by the rules and sometimes manage to do so, but I cannot imagine trying to play under that kind of scrutiny. Next thing you will see overlays on the screen showing ball marking before and after and high def etc Ignatius Reilly will have his way and "all those cheaters" will be caught red handed ;-)

Just my 2 strokes, er 2 cents :-)

[Richd]

IanJamesPoulter

Rules of Golf Book Rule 22-4 paragraph 3 line 7, "the rules of golf are complete bollocks and are stuck back in 1932". Couldn't agree more
:rofl:

[Ignatius Reilly]

FINALLY, something you wrote that I can agree with!

Other than that, can I get you another bag of chips? Coke?:D

It's just no fun watching golf on a non-HDTV. You never know what's going on. A player could be making a great shot and it means nothing, because he's already made a horrendous blunder that will DQ him from the tournament. We might as well watch them hit shots on the range for three hours! There, the only rule is to be courteous to your fellow golfers!

[As long as you're not a midget or a basketball player, I believe we see eye to eye on a lot of things.]

We agreed on something? I must have been unclear in my writing...

To be serious for moment - I do think the Tour(s) need to reconsider how they approach tv callers. From the article, they are at least beginning to think about it

The business of applying the sanction of disqualification on top of the penalty in cases where breaches are not detectable by the eye is now under review.

But they really need to go further, or professional golf on tv will become as you described. No point watching all the good shots, because you will have no idea who's in the lead or who's going to be DQ'd tomorrow. I considered PVRing everything, then watching it all in slo-mo, but watching Paddy in slo-mo seems... redundant.

And no, not coke and not Corona (aka Mexican Pepsi), but a Creemore would be nice with the chips.

And no, I'm not Muggsy Bogues;)

[landlord]

I think Harrington should take this to the Supreme Court of Abu Dhabi/United Arab Emirates and see what the Sharia Law have to say in this matter.
I think the penalty is one finger, which means he could still play golf reasonably well. As long as it's not the thumb.

[Bentley01]

We agreed on something? I must have been unclear in my writing...

To be serious for moment - I do think the Tour(s) need to reconsider how they approach tv callers. From the article, they are at least beginning to think about it
The business of applying the sanction of disqualification on top of the penalty in cases where breaches are not detectable by the eye is now under review.
But they really need to go further, or professional golf on tv will become as you described. No point watching all the good shots, because you will have no idea who's in the lead or who's going to be DQ'd tomorrow. I considered PVRing everything, then watching it all in slo-mo, but watching Paddy in slo-mo seems... redundant.

And no, not coke and not Corona (aka Mexican Pepsi), but a Creemore would be nice with the chips.

And no, I'm not Muggsy Bogues;)

Some good zingers in this one!

You can bet with the TOUR looking into anything it will be months, if not years, before we get a "ruling". Undoubtedly, they will have to define what is meant by "naked eye". What would distinguish a naked eye from a fully clothed one? What if a golfer wears glasses and doesn't have good peripheral vision? Unfair advantage to Mr. Magoo? If they go the HDTV camera route, what happens when technology makes that look like a snowy B & W TV by comparison (for our younger members, they actually had Black and White TV's before colour ones!)? Should they have huge Jumbotrons at every green and allow the spectators to vote whether an infraction has occurred? Of course, they would have to specify the level of detail to be displayed on the screen and how slow the slo-mo could be.

Once it gets to this point, we might as well slip a toonie into the machine at your local pub and play like the pros.:D

[tasker]

So if a round is completed and signed, the recent rulings seem to imply that the ability to DQ exists after the fact. So what would happen if a golfer, say Padraig Harrington for kicks, won a tournament and then I called a week later after reviewing my super HD replayomatic thingy and found he had incurred a penalty that was not found at the time? By recent example he could be DQd. Could he UNWIN the tournament? Is the fourth round any different that the first round in this respect? For this reason I think a round needs to end when a round ends not when no more callers have called in to show infractions ......

And I wonder how many players will be hiring teams of armchair analysts to try and catch those cheating co-competitors to report the infractions .....

And if players start being ultra-conservative does the shot clock keep ticking to the point that being cautious now bring pace of play penalties?

All tongue in cheek of course but it seems to me there is no real backing to the rule in a current sense.

[Bern]

This ruling is really retarded.

[Shake99]

Golf rulings have disintegrated to the Theatre of the Absurd. It would appear that the rules officials involved have lost all ability to think.

Golf has reached the point with this nonsense that the solution is to put 4 rules offiicals on each hole who will be responsible for verifying that each player on their hole complied with all of the rules and certifing their score. Once the player leaves the hole that is it. Players will no longer be required to signa scorecard and the rules officials will be required to advise a player IN ADVANCE that their ball is in a trap, ground under repair, hazard etc

[Bentley01]

Golf rulings have disintegrated to the Theatre of the Absurd. It would appear that the rules officials involved have lost all ability to think.

Golf has reached the point with this nonsense that the solution is to put 4 rules offiicals on each hole who will be responsible for verifying that each player on their hole complied with all of the rules and certifing their score. Once the player leaves the hole that is it. Players will no longer be required to signa scorecard and the rules officials will be required to advise a player IN ADVANCE that their ball is in a trap, ground under repair, hazard etc

Make that four rules officials with good eyes, an HDTV camera with super slow slo-mo capabilities and a feed to the secondary, in the booth, rules supervisors, who report directly to the Head Rules Official...who's watching TV and answering the phone from viewer "rules officials", who try to point out player infractions between mouthfuls of chips and the slurping of Cokes.

[ninja]

Slow motion? Really?

Several major sports use slow motion replays to overturn (or confirm) calls....why not golf?

Also, why can a golfer can be DQ'd during the tournament but not after?!?

[Golden Bear]

Several major sports use slow motion replays to overturn (or confirm) calls....why not golf?
There's a very good reason: Harrington was DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard. He signed that incorrect scorecard because he didn't call a penalty on himself. He didn't call that penalty on himself because he couldn't observe the problem with the naked eye.

This is a case where "golfers are expected to call penalties on themselves" is a valid distinction between golf and other sports. If the onus is on the players to call penalties on themselves, the penalties should be observable by the human eye. If it takes slow-motion replay to observe the penalty, it's questionable whether a penalty should be called in the first place, and it's even more of a problem if the player is DQ'd for not being able to see it.

[HacknSlash]

The application of this rule was stupid (notice I did not say the rule was stupid, that would upset the rules Gurus for sure).

And tell me another sport that allows people to influence the games and make calls from their couch at home.:cookoo:

This is part of what McDowell had to say. Nice to see one of the tour players speak his mind instead of towing the party line!

“The rules are there for everyone's protection. But it makes a bit of a mockery of the game when we are penalising players for something as crazy as that.

"The game has had a lot of bad press lately, stupid rules; Dustin Johnson at the PGA, there's too much of that going on nowadays.

[swingpure]

Paddy was stellar in his interview

He was. He did not question the rule or that he unknowingly broke the rule and that the rule should be applied.

From Paddy:

“I would argue, though, in general, it does serve the game well that we have the best rules of any sport. They are applied across the board all the time. It's the one thing all golfers love about their sport is the fact that we can stand up and say, we have the best rules, we are the fairest, we call them on ourselves.

“I think in this situation and other situations like that, with the new technology, maybe going forward, that the penalties can be changed. But the actual rulings have to stay where they are. You know, as I said, 1 1/2 dimples becomes, as I said, half an inch becomes an inch; where do you stop? "


McFee the rules official said:
"The movement of the ball during the specific act of replacing it is covered by Rule 20-3a and there is no penalty to this movement, but the ball must be replaced."

Watching it myself in real speed the ball obviously moved and not just by a fraction. The safe course of action whether you thought it moved all the way back or not would have been to pick it up and replace it and then no one can second guess you.

I have to admit I feel sorry for him if he honestly thought the ball had returned to it's original position.

I have already expressed my disapproval for being DQ'd after the fact by phone in's. I think as mentioned by Paddy that the consequences of the rule infraction, not the rule itself, should be reviewed.

[golfnguru]

The safe course of action whether you thought it moved all the way back or not would have been to pick it up and replace it and then no one can second guess you.



What if he had replaced it in the wrong spot by a similar amount as it was supposed to have moved and someone called it in? Theoretically I think he would still be penalized.

[dekker]

This is an example of the rules going haywire.

Harrington was UNABLE to see the ball move, "with the naked eye". Yet, he was given the penalty, because a TV, SLOW MOTION replay found that his ball moved 3 dimples forward AND 1.5 dimples back (undetectable without the slo-mo). Harrington, rightly, honestly did not see the ball move away from its original spot. No one else caught it either.

When they formulated the rules, there is NO WAY they meant microscopic movements. One of the key components of the rules of golf is that the player is expected to honestly call penalties upon him/herself. If you cannot see infractions without a high-powered telescope, it didn't happen. If you don't agree, just wait until technology improves again. Just wait until they can PROVE that every single player misplaces his ball after marking. NASA-nerd, golf couch potatoes will now have full time jobs spotting 1 millimetre misplacements and speed-dialing the Tour official rules infraction hotline (if they can get through). Madness, I tell you.

I say couch potatoes, like the one that called this one in, should have someone stomp on their bags of chips and shake their cans of Coke (or Corona).:eek:
Exactly ,no payer gets it absolutely right when he marks the ball and comes back to it later. The fact you can use any size or type of marker already guarantees that.

[Rusty]

Re: What happens if an infraction is spotted after the final round of a tournament is completed?

According to commentary on the Golf Channel, infractions reported after the completion of the tournament have no bearing on the outcome of the tournament. So, if Mr. Zealous Observer calls in after the "tournament is official" there is no post-facto penalty assessed and the final standings, and winnings, are unaltered.

Rusty

[swingpure]

What if he had replaced it in the wrong spot by a similar amount as it was supposed to have moved and someone called it in? Theoretically I think he would still be penalized.

I don't know how anyone could really tell, once you pick it up and put it back beside the coin any thoughts of whether it moved a dimple or two would be eliminated, because no one could tell and it would meet the requirements of the rule.

What surprised me was he gave it a good nudge as opposed to just a glancing brush. I thought he was a little too casual about what he did being a professional and all. I like him, but felt he made a mental error.

Once again I do not think the consequences are correct, but that was discussed in full on another thread.

[dekker]

Harrington admitted that the ball was moved but ever so slightly, possibly rotated 3dimples and then rolled back very close to its former location.
The mistake was not marking again and relocating to it original position even though this would have been mostly symbolic as it is virtually impossible to do so exactly. He knew the rule but saw no point since in his mind the roll and return distance difference was almost imperceptible. Lesson learned.

[wilson]

Saw Rors today take 10-15 seconds on the 4th green to mark, then remark his ball just like you mentioned should be done.
I'm sure this (and the other infractions) has some of them spooked.

[Momo]

I think Harrington should take this to the Supreme Court of Abu Dhabi/United Arab Emirates and see what the Sharia Law have to say in this matter.

A little bit uncalled for here.

As for the infraction, Paddy agrees the ball moved in his interview and said that its normal for something like that to happen because of the humps and bumps from balls landing on the green (rephrased that part). Should he be disqualified?

I don't know. I'm strongly against anyone getting disqualified for a tv caller especially if its not reported during the round. If you sign the card and your playing partners are ok with the score, its good enough for me. Too bad that you can be disqualified after the fact for something like that.

I have a question though... if he called a referee over and said what happened and got the wrong advice because he'd say the ball is exactly where it was, could he still get disqualified? Basically if the ref gives you wrong advice and you follow it, would you still be disqualified if a tv caller said that everyone was wrong?

[SliceHooker]

What if he had replaced it in the wrong spot by a similar amount as it was supposed to have moved and someone called it in? Theoretically I think he would still be penalized.

I was just going to post something to this regard. I would suspect that chances are most, if not all, times someone marks their ball on the green that the ball is NOT placed in the exact spot it was lifted from. It can be extremely close but chances are it's not exact. All we need now is for someone to start zooming in to the markings and overlaying a before and after picture. Everyone DQ'ed!!!

[sLuGo]

I think it's a TGN member calling all these in....the SAME person!

[mpare]

I've played with many who somehow manage to always replace their ball at least an inch or two ahead of their marker. My personal favourite was a guy in Ottawa who placed his marker ahead of the ball, then when he replaced the ball placed it ahead of the marker. If he had a chance to mark his ball a few times on the same green, he could turn a 3 footer into a gimme. :D

I was just going to post something to this regard. I would suspect that chances are most, if not all, times someone marks their ball on the green that the ball is NOT placed in the exact spot it was lifted from. It can be extremely close but chances are it's not exact. All we need now is for someone to start zooming in to the markings and overlaying a before and after picture. Everyone DQ'ed!!!

[Shadow]

I've played with many who somehow manage to always replace their ball at least an inch or two ahead of their marker. My personal favourite was a guy in Ottawa who placed his marker ahead of the ball, then when he replaced the ball placed it ahead of the marker. If he had a chance to mark his ball a few times on the same green, he could turn a 3 footer into a gimme. :DI learned this from Chris. :)

[Chambokl]

I've played with many who somehow manage to always replace their ball at least an inch or two ahead of their marker. My personal favourite was a guy in Ottawa who placed his marker ahead of the ball, then when he replaced the ball placed it ahead of the marker. If he had a chance to mark his ball a few times on the same green, he could turn a 3 footer into a gimme. :D

But I am sure you still manage to get his $$ . . . . :)

[P25]

Wow. This is just wrong. Unfortunately technology has advanced to a point where things are seen on tv that just can't be seen in person. The rules need to be changed IMO. This kind of thing is happening far too often nowadays, and I don't believe golfers today are any less honest than in the past. What that says to me is this kind of thing likely has happened for yrs, but was not detected.

I really wonder about the people that sit at home and call this kind of BS in.

[Bentley01]

I've played with many who somehow manage to always replace their ball at least an inch or two ahead of their marker. My personal favourite was a guy in Ottawa who placed his marker ahead of the ball, then when he replaced the ball placed it ahead of the marker. If he had a chance to mark his ball a few times on the same green, he could turn a 3 footer into a gimme. :D

Note to Toronto captain, bring high definition camcorders to record Ottawa players marking putts on the greens.:D

[Bellyhungry]

Wow. This is just wrong. Unfortunately technology has advanced to a point where things are seen on tv that just can't be seen in person. The rules need to be changed IMO. This kind of thing is happening far too often nowadays, and I don't believe golfers today are any less honest than in the past. What that says to me is this kind of thing likely has happened for yrs, but was not detected.

I really wonder about the people that sit at home and call this kind of BS in.

I actually think viewers' call-ins and the subsequent uproars are actually good because they put pressure on the golf governing bodies to if not reform the rules, but at least take a hard look at them. And hopefully common sense eventually prevails.

The more high profile the DQ is and the more bizzare how they are DQ'd, the better...

[mpare]

On occasion I did manage to get a few of his dollars.

But I am sure you still manage to get his $$ . . . . :)

[mpare]

You needn't worry. He's not on the team. But it might be good to record post-game events. :)

Note to Toronto captain, bring high definition camcorders to record Ottawa players marking putts on the greens.:D

[P25]

I actually think viewers' call-ins and the subsequent uproars are actually good because they put pressure on the golf governing bodies to if not reform the rules, but at least take a hard look at them. And hopefully common sense eventually prevails.

The more high profile the DQ is and the more bizzare how they are DQ'd, the better...

Totally agree.

[caddishack]

I want to know how this caller knew who to call?
I cant believe it is so easy to get through to the officials.

They have a hotline cheater number or something? :D

[ginrin]

Ever notice how every pro that gets caught takes the high road!That's because they know the rules are there to protect the game and the competition.They know they are under a microscope but they get compensated a lot for their worries.

[Shadow]

I actually think viewers' call-ins and the subsequent uproars are actually good because they put pressure on the golf governing bodies to if not reform the rules, but at least take a hard look at them. And hopefully common sense eventually prevails.

The more high profile the DQ is and the more bizzare how they are DQ'd, the better...Bang on. And this is why the ruling bodies NOW include the use of TV coverage to protect the integrity of the game, the players and the competition.

One good that comes out of the player's screw ups, is that the average golfer gets to learn a little about the rules.

[A Man Called Papa]

Ever notice how every pro that gets caught takes the high road!That's because they know the rules are there to protect the game and the competition.They know they are under a microscope but they get compensated a lot for their worries.

I like to think that is also because they understand the implications of pulling threads on the fabric of the RofG. In the absence of specific, well thought through alternatives, they have come to respect the rules as they are and the processes under which they are changed. As likeable as the gratuitous comments by some Pros seem to be regarded, they are always short on any kind of specifics or recognition of the consequences. Do you really believe that if any the top players had a persuasive, workable, beneficial modification to the rules that had not been considered, on which there was some kind of concensus, that the ruling bodies would not listen? Perhaps many of you need to consider that after constant study and scrutiny, the rules are the way they are because that is how they need to be.

[swingpure]

Looks like they made a sensible rules change. :)

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/tour-insider/rule-change-spare-disqualification-42389/

[dillon1up]

glad to see they have changed the rule for these unintentional infractions caught on camera and DQ is out with penalty stroke in.


http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2011/04/usga-ra-soften-incorrect-scorecard-dq-rule.html

[Ignatius Reilly]

I look forward to Shadow's and Papa's condemnation of the "non-golfers" who have authored this change ;)

[northernpro]

maybe..if they can DQ the rest of the field..Tiger could win another
major..:rolleyes: