Addressing closer to the ball

[Focker Singh]

I just had another lesson with a CPGA pro and his latest advice was to address the ball about 2 inches closer than I used to. Visually it looks better, I stand taller and my posture looks better. However, I am having trouble hitting the ball nicely. I am hitting the ground about 4 inches before the ball. My instructor says that I am "casting" my right arm too soon (I am right handed). Is there a good way to practise not casting my arm too soon? I was so frustrated that I hit some balls by addressing the ball my "old way" about 2 inches further out and I hit the ball so nicely. Perhaps I am changing too many things too soon? I've had my grip revamped and some other minor swing changes all within the last month. Please :help:

[pudubny]

Focker,
I have struggled off and on for years with the same problem. Many teachers tried to teach me how NOT to cast the club. Nothing stuck.
For me, the only thing that has ever helped me get rid of this problem is swinging a weighted club. For some reason the extra weight seems to force you to hold the wrist angle longer on the downswing. If ever I stray from practising with the weighted club for very long, the habit comes back.
Added bonus for you, most are available with the "grip trainer" handle which will help you with your new grip as well.
The Momentus is the most well known example. I bought a half size club so I can swing it indoors, paid $25.00 at Golftown for it. It honestly has done wonders for my game, swing it about 10-15 minutes, 3 times a week all winter.
I see that somebody came out with a version that also incorporates the Medicus hinging idea, that will be my next model. Vijay swings this thing that looks like an axe, apparently it weighs about ten pounds. The number of pros who work with weighted clubs is impressive, I don't think you can go wrong.
Hope this helps.
Pud.

[Whoa Nelly]

Focker,
Something that worked for me was, from the top of my backswing, while descending, i'd concentrate on dropping my right elbow into my right hip. What this does is it brings the club head and the hands from the outside of the swing into the "slot" position. This will usually remedy fat shots...

[Mule56]

I just had another lesson with a CPGA pro and his latest advice was to address the ball about 2 inches closer than I used to. Visually it looks better, I stand taller and my posture looks better. However, I am having trouble hitting the ball nicely. I am hitting the ground about 4 inches before the ball. My instructor says that I am "casting" my right arm too soon (I am right handed). Is there a good way to practise not casting my arm too soon? I was so frustrated that I hit some balls by addressing the ball my "old way" about 2 inches further out and I hit the ball so nicely. Perhaps I am changing too many things too soon? I've had my grip revamped and some other minor swing changes all within the last month. Please :help:Focker,
The first thing I have to say is stick with the lessons. Building a swing does not happen over night (like I need to tell you that). Casting can be caused by the reaction to an improper weight shift. Let your instructor take you to that step next.
Pud had a good suggestion swinging a weighted club, if weight shift or straightening your back leg is not your issue (it may help you become more aware of these issues). You can get one at Canadian Tire made by Intech. 48 oz. $40.00~ compared to the Momentus you see on TV.
Again let your instructor tell you what is causing it. He's looking at your swing not us.
Mule

[Mok]

what does "casting" mean?

[shakenbake]

Casting: a common tendency to actively uncock the wrists and throw the club with the hands too early in the downswing in an attempt to accelerate the club or square the face

(from www.pgaprofessional.com (http://www.pgaprofessional.com))

It looks a lot like the flicking motion your hands/wrists make when you're fishing (i.e. "casting" the fishing rod out)...basically, a lot of the power stored up in a good wrist-cock gets wasted well before you reach impact - one common reason why a lot of amateurs don't get as much distance as you would think based on their size/strength.

The really annoying thing: I know what it is, I know what it looks like, I know that I do it all the time, BUT I JUST CAN'T STOP IT! Aaaargh...

If anyone has a better explanation, please correct me (and can you correct my casting problem while you're at it??!!).

[Focker Singh]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. A weighted club sounds like a tool I could use to help me out. Its just so frustating, I can hit the ball so much better just by having the ball 2 inches further away and now this...back to square one...feel like I'm just learning the game. :(

[pudubny]

Focker,
I suggest when you do purchase your weighted club, take it to your lesson with your pro, he will teach you how to get the most out of using it and how not to develop bad habits while using it.
Good luck!
Pud.

[freddie]

The 90* angle you should have (approx.) you have a wrist cock should be maintained all the way down through your downswing until about the point when your left arm reaches your right thigh, then the wrists should uncock releasing the club through to square.

An early release will make you hit the ground prematurely as you bottom out the swing arc behind the ball.
Also, your body weight shift may not be occuring as it should from the back to the front leg as you swing through. If you don't do the classic shift and post onto the left leg then your swing arc may be happening behind the ball.

[Mule56]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. A weighted club sounds like a tool I could use to help me out. Its just so frustating, I can hit the ball so much better just by having the ball 2 inches further away and now this...back to square one...feel like I'm just learning the game. :(Focker,
Get Harvey Penieck's Little Red Book. On page 62 he tells you all you need to know about siwnging a weighted club. Ben Crenshaw once said that Harvey told him to swing the weighted club in slow motion and he when thought he was going slow then he needed to slow it down even more. I swing mine every day. Count thirty to the top, thirty to impact and thirty to the end. Always make sure you to swing at an imaginary ball.
Mule

[pudubny]

Now I do not want to get into an argument but I gotta point out that an early release or "casting" is not necessarily as bad as some people think. I got to an 8 handicap with the problem and could hit drives farther than most. The casting will not cause you to hit behind the ball unless it is combined with another problem like adjusted spine angle or bad weight shift. If you time the early release of the wrists correctly, you can be a good ball striker. Their are a few pros who do not have the classic late release of the wrists.
Anyways my point is that sometimes I think teachers spend to much time on trying to overcome this rather than teach amateurs how to use it. It is one of the more difficult aspects of the classic swing and not all amateurs can duplicate that late release.
Shelby Futch, one of the best golf teachers I am aware of talks about this problem in this article.
http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/breaking/index.ssf?/instruction/breaking/gd200401breaking90.html
If you see any videos from Shelby, I highly recommend him. Dispells a lot of myths that other teaching professionals commonly espouse.
Hope that also helps Focker.

[haribo]

First off: STAY AWAY from weighted clubs like the Momentus!!!!!! Unless you are interested in developing a serious case of the shanks do not use one.

Secondly, casting the club or fly fishing as i like to call it comes mostly also with some over the top action. I have a little drill you can do easily at home (if your ceiling is high enough of course). It is supposed to help you avoiding to come over the top/casting. But it also helps you to get a feel for the proper wrist action.

Here's the drill. Take a club, 9 or 8 iron ... not too long a club, get in your address position like you are about to hit a shot. Now, do the following (for right handers, lefties adjust accordingly), take your right hand off the club and position it on top of your left wrist. Just grab your wrist like you would hold the grip of your club. Now swing slowly. You'll find two things will happen. 1. it is physically impossible for you to cast the club/come over the top; and 2. when you start your downswing your left hand cannot go anywhere else but to drop down which also helps to get a feel for the proper wrist action. No casting whatsoever.

Good luck. haribo

[Mule56]

First off: STAY AWAY from weighted clubs like the Momentus!!!!!! Unless you are interested in developing a serious case of the shanks do not use one. Haribo,
I'm interested to find out why you say weighted clubs will give you the s......
I've used one for 4 years now and have never had that issue. Harvey Penick says everyone should use as soon as they able to lift one.
Was this a personal experience you had?
Mule

[shakenbake]

Now I do not want to get into an argument but I gotta point out that an early release or "casting" is not necessarily as bad as some people think. I got to an 8 handicap with the problem and could hit drives farther than most. The casting will not cause you to hit behind the ball unless it is combined with another problem like adjusted spine angle or bad weight shift. If you time the early release of the wrists correctly, you can be a good ball striker. Their are a few pros who do not have the classic late release of the wrists.
Anyways my point is that sometimes I think teachers spend to much time on trying to overcome this rather than teach amateurs how to use it. It is one of the more difficult aspects of the classic swing and not all amateurs can duplicate that late release.
Shelby Futch, one of the best golf teachers I am aware of talks about this problem in this article.
http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/breaking/index.ssf?/instruction/breaking/gd200401breaking90.html
If you see any videos from Shelby, I highly recommend him. Dispells a lot of myths that other teaching professionals commonly espouse.
Hope that also helps Focker.
Very true pudubny!

I've always had a casting "problem", but I've managed to work it into a swing that is straight, repeatable and relatively consistent distance-wise. Add a little common-sense and sufficient course management skills and you can be just fine.

My frustration is when I'm stuck going for the green with a 3-wood off the deck on a 400-yard par 4 and I think to myself: "If I could just get a better release and reclaim that power I'm losing, I'd be hitting my 2nd shot with a 5 or 6-iron".

But like you say, casting isn't always a fatal flaw - you can still be a pretty good ball-striker.

[Ems]

wow, this is a hard thread. Everyone has really good advice but which one should he follow?? I guess Focker should go back to his instructor and let him know about his frustration and some advice he's received which includes

1 - practice with weighted clubs
2 - use the "casting" to his advantage (which sounds like he is doing this, just not when he has to address the ball 2 inches closer)
3 - don't practice with weighted clubs but practice a drill to help his casting...

Sounds like you've got a lot to consult with your instructor. It'll probably eat into your one hour lesson, which as I recall, he's very strict on.

[haribo]

Haribo,
I'm interested to find out why you say weighted clubs will give you the s......
I've used one for 4 years now and have never had that issue. Harvey Penick says everyone should use as soon as they able to lift one.
Was this a personal experience you had?
Mule

Simple reason. It's hard to see what you are doing wrong behind your back. What I mean is at the top of your backswing you don't see what you or better what the ultra heavy Momentus is doing to your swing. A heavy club easily makes you change all kind of things ... i.e. wrist cock, angle (laying it off), etc. ... without you noticing it at all.

As always, practise doesn't make perfect. It makes permanent. With a heavy club like the Momentus it is very easy to ingrain bad habits. Everything feels great but because you don't actually hit balls with it you don't see what's happening. You might be in for a big surprise.

If you really want to work with a Momentus do it under the supervision of your Pro.

Yupp, been there, done that. I know also of a lot of other people who made the same experiences. It's not just me.

(call me nuts ... but I strongly believe that the Momentus is one of the reasons why David Duvals game went south. Of course I have no proof for this. Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.)

haribo

[pudubny]

Haribo,
While I strongly agree that consulting your teacher about a weighted club, I don't agree with your post.
While Duval has struggled with his game, nobody close to David believes it has anything to do with the Momentus. BTW, he was using it when he became #1 in the world, so does the Momentus get credit for that? The logic just doesn't work. See article in Golf Digest archives.
Many, if not most tour players use weighted clubs as part of a training regimen. Ask a tour player and they will tell you they are all over the ranges these days. Go to a tour event and hang out on the range, you will see them everywhere.
If you happen to see the Bay Hill broadcast yesterday, they again showed Vijay swinging the "AXE". It weighs approx 8 lbs according to Miller.
They also talked about how weighted clubs improve flexibility, a key to a more fluid swing.
As far as ruining the plane of the swing or anything else, if it does that to somebodies swing, they did not use it properly. That is not the fault of the tool, but the user.
It's easy to ingrain bad habits with a regular golf club, but we don't advocate people stop practising.
But if you practise correctly with a weighted club it can do nothing but help your strength and flexibility.

[laxgolf]

Haribo,
While I strongly agree that consulting your teacher about a weighted club, I don't agree with your post.
While Duval has struggled with his game, nobody close to David believes it has anything to do with the Momentus. BTW, he was using it when he became #1 in the world, so does the Momentus get credit for that? The logic just doesn't work. See article in Golf Digest archives.
Many, if not most tour players use weighted clubs as part of a training regimen. Ask a tour player and they will tell you they are all over the ranges these days. Go to a tour event and hang out on the range, you will see them everywhere.
If you happen to see the Bay Hill broadcast yesterday, they again showed Vijay swinging the "AXE". It weighs approx 8 lbs according to Miller.
They also talked about how weighted clubs improve flexibility, a key to a more fluid swing.
As far as ruining the plane of the swing or anything else, if it does that to somebodies swing, they did not use it properly. That is not the fault of the tool, but the user.
It's easy to ingrain bad habits with a regular golf club, but we don't advocate people stop practising.
But if you practise correctly with a weighted club it can do nothing but help your strength and flexibility.I agree with this completely. I've been using a weighted club for a few years now and have found some benefit from it. I haven't developed a case of the shanks. I can see that if you're full out swinging a weighted club it could cause some bad habits (and damage). You're only supposed to swing at half or 2/3's speed. The weighted club will train you to properly drop the club into the slot and release the club. If I can't get to a range before a round, the weighted club is the next best thing. This is directly from Penick's Little Red Book, pg 62.

Don't swing it so hard you'll hurt yourself.........swing the weighted club in slow motion. A slow motion swing develops the golf muscles, implants the correct club position in your golfing brain

You can get a weighted club from Canadian Tire for $40. I made my own for $10.

[Focker Singh]

Thanks everyone for their advice. I'll try to work everything out before the golf season. Was very frustrating not being able to hit the ball like I did before. Maybe because I addressed the ball further away from me it made me reach for the ball thus hiding my casting problem??? Then again, I don't know what the heck I'm saying so I'll just ask my instructor next time. Thanks.