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MOI fittings

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  • #16
    Re: MOI fittings

    Originally posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
    Jim, I too feel this is where the accuracy needs to live. With MOI builders are targeting a very tight weight set of variables - to really try and dial in the MOI number. We are talking less than a gram in many cases.

    To create the argument - the best of the best golfers can just begin to feel the difference of 2 - 3 swing weight points - which is 4 - 6 grams, so by dialing in less than a single gram can be an exercise that may never reap the benefits. I understand why builders go to these lengths - just as I did in the development of TLT - always got questioned as to why a second decimal place in length was necessary - it is to be the best we can be.

    Just saying - I find the athletic address position to be the biggest factor in developing a repeatable swing and swing plane, and sacrificing length for the sake of a gram or 2 - will not fly in my books. I will accept the gram or 2 and keep the player athletic all day long.
    Dan wrote," Just saying - I find the athletic address position to be the biggest factor in developing a repeatable swing and swing plane, and sacrificing length for the sake of a gram or 2 - will not fly in my books. I will accept the gram or 2 and keep the player athletic all day long."
    Question - Theoretically...How much shaft length removal would be required to achieve the desired MOI?
    Max
    " One Day At A Time"

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: MOI fittings

      Originally posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
      Not sure how improved ball flight will not be appealing as I continually get nothing but positive feedback. TLT really is not that different. OEM's are near 3 1/2 to 4 inches of length change, and standard TLT is near 3 inches total length change. Difference is I set the lie angles correctly rather than randomly (which is the only way I can describe OEM specifications.

      The hard part I feel for the OEM's to approach a method like mine is that they would have to become a full custom shop - building each set to the correct LLL - otherwise keeping inventory up for all the length Series I use would be costly. Do it as a build to order and they would succeed - but they cannot get same day deliveries.
      I would of thought lie angles stay the same .

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: MOI fittings

        Originally posted by Maxwell View Post
        Question - Theoretically...How much shaft length removal would be required to achieve the desired MOI?
        Max
        Depends on the chosen MOI but 2 grams off would be peanuts in terms of length.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: MOI fittings

          Originally posted by Tintin View Post
          Depends on the chosen MOI but 2 grams off would be peanuts in terms of length.
          I'm learning about MOI so I don't know very much about MOI. I do know,"a little bit" about swing weighting and how different parts of a golf club can change a swing weight. Dan developed "True Length Technology" and to his credit it has received awards. I wonder if a possible comprise could be made in his case knowing that small changes in a golf club could provide the desired MOI and not interfere with an athletic stance "too much" but not increase "crouching" disproportionately? Removing 0.025" off the butt end of a shaft could,"theoretically" move the MOI enough to bring it into spec and not impede a golfer swing,"all that much".
          Max
          " One Day At A Time"

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: MOI fittings

            Max, TLT and MOI do work very well together. It's just when I have reviewed the MOI build data from MOI only builders, for some reason I still see discrepancies and non uniformity in some of the lengths that they report building to.

            I build to MOI theories but will not let a heavier head stop me from building say a wedge to what is the right length and lie, so the set may loose a bit of the MOI preciseness as we transition into the wedges, but I will not sacrifice the length just to meet a number. I build to my customers specifications - not letting the club MOI specification override a proper length.

            Sorry I do not have any data to present, its just something I have noticed over the years when people have presented their MOI / length / lie build data. As MOI is a mathematical formula it has confused me as to why there is sometimes a lack of uniformity - often found in the length.
            Regards
            Dan

            Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
            True Length Technology TM
            Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
            True Frequency Technology TM
            - Developer / Owner

            Maltby Clubmaking Academy
            - Master
            Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
            - Advanced / Professional
            Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
            - Class 'A'

            Phone : 905-263-8510
            Hampton, ON
            Appointment only
            Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
            E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: MOI fittings

              Originally posted by Tintin View Post
              Depends on the chosen MOI but 2 grams off would be peanuts in terms of length.
              I agree, so I let the 2 or more grams float - altering the MOI value rather than sacrifice length.
              Regards
              Dan

              Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
              True Length Technology TM
              Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
              True Frequency Technology TM
              - Developer / Owner

              Maltby Clubmaking Academy
              - Master
              Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
              - Advanced / Professional
              Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
              - Class 'A'

              Phone : 905-263-8510
              Hampton, ON
              Appointment only
              Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
              E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: MOI fittings

                Originally posted by nearace View Post
                I would of thought lie angles stay the same .
                Not quite sure what you mean, but I will try to explain where I think you are going.

                If you look at OEM's pretty much all PW's are at 64 degree of lie, but by the time you get to the 4 iron, some have 61, some 60, some 59 lie - so this is where the lie angles become very random. Some sets have 1/2 degree lie change, some jump to 1 degree near the longer irons.

                Some keep the wedges at 64 but continue to shorten the length into the other wedges. This will force you to be pulled out of your strongest address position due to a short club length. If you go shorter you need to go more upright - but even here there are limits that will start to cause grief.
                Regards
                Dan

                Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                True Length Technology TM
                Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                True Frequency Technology TM
                - Developer / Owner

                Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                - Master
                Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                - Advanced / Professional
                Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                - Class 'A'

                Phone : 905-263-8510
                Hampton, ON
                Appointment only
                Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: MOI fittings

                  Originally posted by Maxwell View Post
                  Dan wrote," Just saying - I find the athletic address position to be the biggest factor in developing a repeatable swing and swing plane, and sacrificing length for the sake of a gram or 2 - will not fly in my books. I will accept the gram or 2 and keep the player athletic all day long."
                  Question - Theoretically...How much shaft length removal would be required to achieve the desired MOI?
                  Max
                  This really depends on the head weight discrepancy. If you have a very heavy head the MOI cannot be achieved without excessive shortening. If your wedges are random in weights then the MOI moves with these discrepancies. Adding weight to the light ones is fine, but removing weight in the heavy ones is difficult.
                  Regards
                  Dan

                  Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                  True Length Technology TM
                  Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                  True Frequency Technology TM
                  - Developer / Owner

                  Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                  - Master
                  Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                  - Advanced / Professional
                  Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                  - Class 'A'

                  Phone : 905-263-8510
                  Hampton, ON
                  Appointment only
                  Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                  E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: MOI fittings

                    Originally posted by Maxwell View Post
                    I'm learning about MOI so I don't know very much about MOI. I do know,"a little bit" about swing weighting and how different parts of a golf club can change a swing weight. Dan developed "True Length Technology" and to his credit it has received awards. I wonder if a possible comprise could be made in his case knowing that small changes in a golf club could provide the desired MOI and not interfere with an athletic stance "too much" but not increase "crouching" disproportionately? Removing 0.025" off the butt end of a shaft could,"theoretically" move the MOI enough to bring it into spec and not impede a golfer swing,"all that much".
                    Max

                    unlike swing weight matching, MOI matching makes each club the same in terms of the amount of force required by the golfer to swing each club , it results in a set of clubs that are matched to each other and identical in swing feel.

                    MOI is a feel parameter and while it does improve consistency by making the amount of effort required to swing each club the same ( not variable as in swing weight matched set) I agree with Dan that putting the golfer in the correct , consistent and repeatable stance is of primary concern. Minor changes in MOI won't be noticeable.
                    "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: MOI fittings

                      Originally posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
                      Not quite sure what you mean, but I will try to explain where I think you are going.

                      If you look at OEM's pretty much all PW's are at 64 degree of lie, but by the time you get to the 4 iron, some have 61, some 60, some 59 lie - so this is where the lie angles become very random. Some sets have 1/2 degree lie change, some jump to 1 degree near the longer irons.

                      Some keep the wedges at 64 but continue to shorten the length into the other wedges. This will force you to be pulled out of your strongest address position due to a short club length. If you go shorter you need to go more upright - but even here there are limits that will start to cause grief.
                      so when my ping clubs have an orange dot they are not all the same

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: MOI fittings

                        Removing 0.025" off the butt end of a shaft could,"theoretically" move the MOI enough to bring it into spec and not impede a golfer swing,"all that much
                        ".

                        If you meant 0.025" it would not actually matter. 0.025 would be overkill imho

                        0.25 might make a difference

                        In terms of swingweight MOI matching= 1.3 swingweight points per inch
                        Couple ways to build to build a MOI match set without a MOI scale.
                        Assuming the head weights are bang on:
                        3/8 length increments between each club instead of the usual 1/2 inch.
                        Or 8 grams difference of head weight.

                        It is quite simple to build a set of MOI-matched irons without the expense of an MOImatching
                        machine. The first method involves building a set of irons using the traditional
                        half-inch length increment between heads. Simply adjust the head weights to 8-gram
                        intervals, instead of the typical 7-gram difference. The MOI will match very closely
                        throughout the set. Another method is to alter the length difference to 3/8 inch and keep the
                        head weights 7 grams apart. Since the majority of heads are manufactured with a 7-gram
                        weight interval, this is a simple assembly method especially when adding weight to a
                        head is not easily accomplished.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: MOI fittings

                          Originally posted by nearace View Post
                          so when my ping clubs have an orange dot they are not all the same
                          Here is a video that explains the difference between TLT and a standard 1/2 increment set. Orange dot simply means that your clubs lies are 2.25 flatter than Ping's standard dot which means your posture changes on every club even though the lies are flatter

                          Last edited by Tintin; Nov 16, 2016, 04:36 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: MOI fittings

                            Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                            Depends on the chosen MOI but 2 grams off would be peanuts in terms of length.
                            That's what I thought based on my very little work helping Certified Class "A" Professional Club Building Society club builder," Jack Baird". If small amounts of butt end shaft removal can produce a iron with the correct MOI, then a "reasonable compromise" is possible. Interesting.
                            Max
                            " One Day At A Time"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: MOI fittings

                              Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                              ".

                              If you meant 0.025" it would not actually matter. 0.025 would be overkill imho

                              0.25 might make a difference

                              In terms of swingweight MOI matching= 1.3 swingweight points per inch
                              Couple ways to build to build a MOI match set without a MOI scale.
                              Assuming the head weights are bang on:
                              3/8 length increments between each club instead of the usual 1/2 inch.
                              Or 8 grams difference of head weight.
                              If you have actually done this, I would be intetested in checking the moI on the scale...

                              I believe that theory and actual is usually different. Some will commit and invest in equipment and most will not.
                              JIM
                              Kona Golf Sales




                              WIB-

                              What Day is it?

                              But Be Sure They Will Be
                              TLT & TFT & Spined /Flo'd
                              Single Length Irons and Hybrids

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: MOI fittings

                                My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) has tested the MOI on the machine verses MOI theories on a number of occasions and has continued to state to me that the builds are very similar and the resultant MOI remains within the tolerances he had set. MOI is a math formula and if everything has been measured within tolerances then the build specs should reflect that.

                                Please don't get me wrong, I see lots of merit in MOI and the machine should be the most accurate. I would expect if perfect MOI is your goal then as long as the machine has been properly calibrated then this would be the way to go. I simply feel that proper length and lie should always be the overriding factor, and we are talking such a small weight change that will affect an MOI build. The 1/2 to 1g difference we are often talking about is pretty much negligible as far as what a player can feel. Most cannot feel 2 -3 swingweight points, which is 4 - 6g of head weight, so 1/2g would be considered a very small deviation.

                                No we don't want to get into large variations and every build has give and take, things we simply have to accept, things that we cannot control - tolerances and what we can physically measure and to what accurately.

                                I spent my whole career doing high level measurement but again tolerances, machine accuracies, gage accuracies, gage R & R (repeatability and reproducibility, human error - all play a part in the fine tuning and accepting of what constitutes a great build, and what little things need to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority.
                                Regards
                                Dan

                                Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                                True Length Technology TM
                                Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                                True Frequency Technology TM
                                - Developer / Owner

                                Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                                - Master
                                Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                                - Advanced / Professional
                                Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                                - Class 'A'

                                Phone : 905-263-8510
                                Hampton, ON
                                Appointment only
                                Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                                E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                                Comment

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