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  • #31
    Re: MOI fittings

    this level of "Custom" should be called a "C'est MOI" fitting.
    Things change.

    Ping i25, PWR75 s
    Ping i25 3w Tour65 s
    Miz 21Fli-Hi Gblue s
    TA 845s GDs300
    Clev588 53,57
    Cal i-Trax

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: MOI fittings

      There is another method of matching heft for irons that is hardly ever mentioned. It could turn out to be a Swingweight match or MOI match or neither. It can be done using a SW scale or a MOI scale


      https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt6.php

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: MOI fittings

        My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) has tested the MOI on the machine verses MOI theories on a number of occasions and has continued to state to me that the builds are very similar and the resultant MOI remains within the tolerances he had set. MOI is a math formula and if everything has been measured within tolerances then the build specs should reflect that.
        I could not tell you if they do or don't. Perhaps Jim Klassen could tell.
        However even if your TLT builds come close to MOI matching it does not mean that the MOI is right for a particular golfer. 29 TLT series means 29 different MOI matched sets

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: MOI fittings

          See to me the concept of MOI is great however I'd never be fit based on a specific MOI. I like an MOI matched set vs a SW matched set. However I'd never say fit me and build my set around XX MOI.
          Driver---Cobra King F6+ (9.5) Aldila Tour Blue 75 S 43.75"
          3W------Cobra King F6 (14.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 42.65"
          5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
          3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
          DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
          Irons------Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW C Taper S
          Wedges---Cleveland RTX 3 (52/MG 58/LG) C Taper S/KBS 610 Wedge S
          Putter-----Ping Cadence TR Sheah H w/ Flatso 1.0
          TLT'D @ Dans Custom Golf

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: MOI fittings

            Originally posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
            My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) ...
            The 1/2 to 1g difference we are often talking about is pretty much negligible as far as what a player can feel. Most cannot feel 2 -3 swingweight points, which is 4 - 6g of head weight, so 1/2g would be considered a very small deviation.
            No we don't want to get into large variations and every build has give and take, things we simply have to accept, things that we cannot control - tolerances and what we can physically measure and to what accurately.
            I spent my whole career doing high level measurement but again tolerances, machine accuracies, gage accuracies, gage R & R (repeatability and reproducibility, human error - all play a part in the fine tuning and accepting of what constitutes a great build, and what little things need to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority.
            I remember Ben as a good knowledgeable guy, probably still is, but haven’t seen him visit this forum in years.

            I spent the bulk of my career in Quality Management, and early in my career I performed GRR studies on various measurement systems. I subscribe to the theorem, that shot dispersion is diminished when the Delta Variance between clubs approaches Zero. Part of the Taguchi Loss Function. My son was a keynote speaker at the International Taguchi Symposium when he was a Grade 9 student, and got to meet the man himself ... sorry I digress.

            Large variations denotes lower quality, and many of the little things do not “need to be prioritized” if you seek to build to a Delta Variance approaching Zero. Rarely does there need to be trade-off’s, but there are cause & effect build relationships which need to be taken into account. Even if “most cannot feel 2 to 3 Swt. points”, this might lead to increased shot dispersion (accuracy). To gain the most entitlement aimed at optimization, it is no longer acceptable to use the width of the goal posts (spec limits). If a player cannot feel the difference, this does not always equate to no improvement in performance if controlled or minimized. Therefore, the characteristic should not be dismissed as acceptable or ok (simply have to accept).

            Dan your TLT concept has puzzled me for some time. Per your video you stated, "drop too low or stand too tall". I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle. An ill fitted putter illustrates this concept rather nicely. They stand closer or further away from the ball if the putter is of the wrong length.

            As a failure mode, I can visualize some golfers 'dropping down' to hit a short OEM stock wedge which is too short to begin with, but I've never built short wedges, always the fitted length of their respective 9-iron.
            Last edited by TourIQ; Dec 25, 2016, 04:30 AM.
            Adams XTD Ti 12.5* / TightLies 2 Ti / Super 9031 Tour / Ping WRX i20 Irons
            Ping WRX Tour Gorge / YES Natalie Putter B-CG / Leupold GX-4 Rangefinder
            Personal Best: 79, hoping for another sub 80 round before the Twilight Zone

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: MOI fittings

              Originally posted by TourIQ View Post
              I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle.
              Thanks so much for this post. The above clip is one of the most important statements/observations i have ever come across !

              Cheers and good health and happiness to all
              Last edited by veryold; Dec 25, 2016, 12:48 PM.
              “Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose”
              Winston S. Churchill

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: MOI fittings

                Seems to me that the posture and head position change

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: MOI fittings

                  Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                  Seems to me that the posture and head position change

                  A shorter shaft coupled with a narrower stance will lead to those positions.
                  #1 Cobra F6+ 9*, Matrix Red Tie Lite
                  #2 Tourstage 705 455 10.5*. Tour AD B11-01W S
                  2016 Cobra F6 16*, Matrix Red Tie Lite
                  Cobra F6 19*, Matrix Red Tie Lite
                  Cobra F6 22*, Matrix Red Tie R
                  Srixon Z355, 4-pw, Nippon 950H R
                  Cobra Tour Trusty 51*, 57*, DG-S200
                  Wilson Staff Southside
                  Srixon Q Star Tour ball
                  Pure Pro Grips

                  "Some day the courage of men may fail, but it will not be this day!"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: MOI fittings

                    If I remember right both Nicklaus and Hogan advocated/shared the "one ball position for all shots".
                    The illusion stems from the trailing foot being brought incrementally closer towards the front foot for every more lofted club.

                    They did differ in their woods set-up though.Hogan's stance went from slightly closed to slightly open by positioning the trailing foot further back from the target line for the driver and woods ,and moving it incrementally in and forward for the differing irons.
                    Nicklaus's preferred neutral hands let him shape a fade with his slightly open stance.
                    Hogan's hand position was weaker than Nicklaus's, so to shape his shot he closed/open his stance with his back foot according to the club in hand.
                    Things change.

                    Ping i25, PWR75 s
                    Ping i25 3w Tour65 s
                    Miz 21Fli-Hi Gblue s
                    TA 845s GDs300
                    Clev588 53,57
                    Cal i-Trax

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: MOI fittings

                      Originally posted by TourIQ View Post
                      I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle..
                      ^^^ I fully agree with you Harry

                      .... but like you state, they HAVE TO alter their stance because of the length & lie makeup of their traditional club make-up ( 1/2" length, 1/2* lie gaps per club).
                      Such golfers have the skill to manage their game with a different stance per club.

                      In my estimation MOST golfers AREN'T good players with strong fundamentals, myself included who is a mid-high single digit cap.
                      As such, why not take any help available to us with an easier-to-hit club make-up , by venturing away from the way it has always been done ?

                      Dans' TLT method is built upon a consistent Lie-Angle change per club, whose length is calculated to a constant stance ( same hand height off the ground ). Over at WRX I also speculated why not make a set with a consistent length gap per set, and adjust the Lie-Angle for a constant stance ( same hand height off the ground ). Instead of using the typical 1/2" per club length change, why not try 1/4" or 5/16" or 3/8" or 7/16" length gaps BUT ADJUST THE LIES for a constant stance.

                      The already-superior player may not need this help in a set built for stance-consistency.
                      But is the traditional 1/2" length gaps and 1/2* lie gaps the best mathematical and club-building way to get people into more consistent swing ?
                      Last edited by ARL67; Dec 26, 2016, 08:31 AM.
                      WITB:
                      Cobra King LTD with Attas 5 GoGo 60S
                      Callaway 816 14* with Kurokage TiNi 50 Stiff
                      Titleist 915HD 17.5* with Diamana S+ 70S
                      Mizuno JPX-900 4-GW with Accra 110i, TLT built by Dan
                      Nike VR Pro 54/60 with Accra 110i, TLT built by Dan
                      TM Ghost Spider 33" SuperStroke Flatso 3.0 CC

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: MOI fittings

                        Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                        I could not tell you if they do or don't. Perhaps Jim Klassen could tell.
                        However even if your TLT builds come close to MOI matching it does not mean that the MOI is right for a particular golfer. 29 TLT series means 29 different MOI matched sets
                        You are certainly right that a different MOI will live in all these TLT Series. Tuning the MOI between similar length Series builds will allow a similar MOI to exist between series.

                        This is partially why I build the way I do. A player may find an idea heft or MOI, but if the length and lie are not correct then there is no value here. If a club is too short or too long I see no value in dialing in an MOI number. This continues to go back to my point of - I takes many rounds for a player to become comfortable with their new fit - ie - lengths and lies. So to do a fitting to get a feel rather than do a fitting to get ideal lengths and lies - relative to you best athletic address is not the focal point I want - to drive all the specs of the set.

                        Once correct length and lie are determined my focus becomes - what is the best shaft weight to help create a great feel once the lengths are dialed in.

                        MOI is still just a number derived from a formula - and a tool that helps determine how close to this number you have gotten. If the MOI forces clubs that are too short or too long I see no value. This is why length and lie must be the priority. To build within a set of parameters that are attainable within the limits of this length and lie will control the MOI. Time and hours swinging the clubs will be the final test as to how successful the fitting was.

                        TLT continues to run very near 100% satisfaction and as long as total weight / swing weight considerations were dealt with in a manner that will help retain a fairly consistent feel, then I have succeeded in building in set that will have a fairly consistent MOI value (again - a number), but the priority will always be length and lie.

                        I still feel this page drives home the changes a player will be forced to do because of lengths and lies that are not correct for the player.
                        http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/un...h-and-lie.html
                        Slides 4 and 5 exhibit the flaws that live in many OEM builds.
                        Last edited by TLT Dan; Dec 26, 2016, 04:31 PM.
                        Regards
                        Dan

                        Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                        True Length Technology TM
                        Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                        True Frequency Technology TM
                        - Developer / Owner

                        Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                        - Master
                        Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                        - Advanced / Professional
                        Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                        - Class 'A'

                        Phone : 905-263-8510
                        Hampton, ON
                        Appointment only
                        Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                        E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: MOI fittings

                          Originally posted by TourIQ View Post
                          I remember Ben as a good knowledgeable guy, probably still is, but haven’t seen him visit this forum in years.

                          I spent the bulk of my career in Quality Management, and early in my career I performed GRR studies on various measurement systems. I subscribe to the theorem, that shot dispersion is diminished when the Delta Variance between clubs approaches Zero. Part of the Taguchi Loss Function. My son was a keynote speaker at the International Taguchi Symposium when he was a Grade 9 student, and got to meet the man himself ... sorry I digress.

                          Large variations denotes lower quality, and many of the little things do not “need to be prioritized” if you seek to build to a Delta Variance approaching Zero. Rarely does there need to be trade-off’s, but there are cause & effect build relationships which need to be taken into account. Even if “most cannot feel 2 to 3 Swt. points”, this might lead to increased shot dispersion (accuracy). To gain the most entitlement aimed at optimization, it is no longer acceptable to use the width of the goal posts (spec limits). If a player cannot feel the difference, this does not always equate to no improvement in performance if controlled or minimized. Therefore, the characteristic should not be dismissed as acceptable or ok (simply have to accept).

                          Dan your TLT concept has puzzled me for some time. Per your video you stated, "drop too low or stand too tall". I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle. An ill fitted putter illustrates this concept rather nicely. They stand closer or further away from the ball if the putter is of the wrong length.

                          As a failure mode, I can visualize some golfers 'dropping down' to hit a short OEM stock wedge which is too short to begin with, but I've never built short wedges, always the fitted length of their respective 9-iron.
                          I find this puzzling as I see it with every player and have fit some extremely talented players - who also THOUGHT they were no changing position.

                          Until you get a set of TLT fitting clubs in your hands you may not be able to convince yourself that you are making these changes.

                          If you have a 3 iron at 60* lie and 39 1/2 inches, then go to a W at 65 lie and 35 1/2 inches - you will be forced to either adjust your address or grip up or down on the clubs - to compensate.

                          The TLT math model for a 60* club (regardless of what club) within a TLT Series 7 would be less than 38 inches as the lie is very upright for a long iron - therefor shorten it. A 65* lie angle wedge is still going to be more than 36 inches - so only 2 inches of length differential between the longest iron and shortest iron.

                          If the lie was flattened on the 3 iron then some additional length can be kept - increasing the range. The lie on the wedge will need to be far more upright if the player wants to keep the short little 35 1/2 inch wedge.

                          I know you build to - all wedges 36" which is a good compromise and I agree with you here. I see way too many 'too short' of wedges out there and if they are full shot clubs they need to fit your athletic address.

                          The example I gave is from an average sized man - a TLT Series 7, but the lengths all change as the size becomes bigger or smaller.

                          Not meaning you - to assume that we all fit the same model and all play similar length clubs is a poor understanding of body sizes and the relationship of the club length and respected lie relative to the fitting process. I want no one making adjustments in their address position to fit the club. The club has to fit you and a big man will play longer clubs than a little man.
                          Regards
                          Dan

                          Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                          True Length Technology TM
                          Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                          True Frequency Technology TM
                          - Developer / Owner

                          Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                          - Master
                          Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                          - Advanced / Professional
                          Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                          - Class 'A'

                          Phone : 905-263-8510
                          Hampton, ON
                          Appointment only
                          Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                          E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: MOI fittings

                            Originally posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
                            I find this puzzling as I see it with every player and have fit some extremely talented players - who also THOUGHT they were no changing position.

                            I know you build to - all wedges 36" which is a good compromise and I agree with you here. I see way too many 'too short' of wedges out there and if they are full shot clubs they need to fit your athletic address.

                            The example I gave is from an average sized man - a TLT Series 7, but the lengths all change as the size becomes bigger or smaller.

                            Not meaning you - to assume that we all fit the same model and all play similar length clubs is a poor understanding of body sizes and the relationship of the club length and respected lie relative to the fitting process. I want no one making adjustments in their address position to fit the club. The club has to fit you and a big man will play longer clubs than a little man.
                            Just to clarify, as a builder who uses 1/2 inch increments in the irons, I always target the wedges and the 9-iron to be 2 inches less than the matching 5-iron. Therefore, not all sets have a 38" 5-iron and a 36" wedge. In addition, all the wedges share the iron shaft with the identical cpm frequency as the matching 9-iron, so they perform with no loss of accuracy with a full swing.

                            I learn from testing theories with an elite player, with highly developed ball striking ability. I don't need to review a lot of noise in the data with a high standard deviation. If it works with this level of player, it will generally garnish improvement with those less accomplished players ... someone like myself.

                            Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

                            He doesn't choke up or down on the grip, even when close to the green. He was instructed to do so when he was 15 years old by his coach, and he dismissed this advice the very next day, based on his own testing and cause & effect analysis. He will however moderate his swing speed, even with a driver, to hit a target distance. He learned to adapt out of necessity, as it took 12 years to find a LH'ed 3-Wood he could hit on command with confidence. It was finding the right 3W head, which posed the challenge for so many years.

                            What puzzles me, if his length and lie are ill-fitted, since they were not built to the TLT math model, then why does he generally always swing in balance, even when approaching 120+ mph?

                            Dan you alluded to prioritized trade off's ... what are they?
                            Adams XTD Ti 12.5* / TightLies 2 Ti / Super 9031 Tour / Ping WRX i20 Irons
                            Ping WRX Tour Gorge / YES Natalie Putter B-CG / Leupold GX-4 Rangefinder
                            Personal Best: 79, hoping for another sub 80 round before the Twilight Zone

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: MOI fittings

                              [QUOTE=TourIQ;1609035]
                              Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

                              QUOTE]

                              Does this unknown player keep his spine angle constant depending on the club?
                              http://www.golfloopy.com/full-swing-...t-spine-angle/

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: MOI fittings

                                So if someone would be kind to clarify for me, please: if a set of TLT irons is lined up against the wall, with all soles perfectly flat on the ground, would the end of grips be at exactly the same height on the wall for ALL clubs ?
                                Last edited by veryold; Dec 27, 2016, 08:50 AM.
                                “Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose”
                                Winston S. Churchill

                                Comment

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