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Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

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  • Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

    Anyone have any experience an MOI fitting? Is there really a difference in performance and feel?

  • #2
    Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

    I am not a believer in swingweight fitting. The fact that many people use back weighting in their clubs ( including pros and the greatest golfer who ever lived = Jack did as well) makes swingweight irrelevant because you cant target a swingweight with counter weight without rendering a club essentially too heavy and unplayable. Swing weight was initially developed as a means to adjust flex in hickory shafts, you add weight to a head to reduce flex, you take it away to increase it.

    today Most companies build to a D2 ( although all the recent Ping sets I have measured are D0)

    what does D2 mean ? i can build you a driver with a 90 gram shaft and another with a 45 gram shaft both to D2 and they wont play anything the same. I can use the same shaft and head and build 2 clubs at the same length but with very different swing weights.

    double blind tests have shown that the majority of golfers cant tell a 2 -3 swingweight point difference. The same studies also showed that most choose the club with the softest flex as the one with the heaviest swing weight even if the swing weight is the same.

    companies build clubs longer to target a swing weight to the detriment of the golfer( IMO).....length is a far, far more critical to a fitting.

    " standard " swing weight , like off the shelf , "standard" length clubs, "standard" 35 inch putters that only fit a small percentage of the population properly ....we have been exposed to these for so long that when given something different even if its better , it just feels wrong

    MOI fitting is a more involved process that tries to make all clubs require the same force to swing.... a better process IMO but not for everybody , also to be done right more time consuming and costly process

    some good reading on the two''''several pages and sections, enjoy

    https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt1.php
    Last edited by Weirfan; May 18, 2017, 12:14 PM.
    "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

      Good read, thanks for the link.

      it just seems so involved and to think that going through that whole process would generate any real positives in your game. It's been around for some time, but rarely see this as an option for fittings.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

        If you want to build a MOI set yourself and have a swingweight scale
        then all you have to do is build a progressive swingweighted set

        Example: 3 iron D.0, 4 iron D0.5, 5 iron D1, 6 iron D1.5 and so on

        The exact rule is 1.3 swingweight point per inch but if you don't have an electronic swingweight scale .5 is close enough.

        Or if the head weights are bang on build in 3/8 increments or space the head weights by 8 grams instead of the standard 7 and build in 1/2 inch increments.

        If you have the MOI scale then the whole process is a lot faster and a lot easier and more accurate



        OEMS don't do it. GT does not do it. A lot of clubmakers swear by it. In the GTA i know Jim Klassen from Kona Golf does it.


        See below
        Last edited by Tintin; May 19, 2017, 02:25 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

          There is no link to this article. Written by Bill Totten formerly with Golfsmith. I just saved a copy.


          Moment of Inertia
          Matching vs.
          Swingweight Matching
          by:
          Bill Totten

          Traditional sets of irons are built to a certain swingweight established by the manufacturer.
          By building sets that employ shafts of different flexes to an identical swingweight, the
          manufacturer can keep the difference between flexes exact. In order to maintain identical
          swingweight throughout the set, the assembler of the clubs uses an age-old formula: The
          head weight increases by an identical amount as each golf club in the set gets shorter.
          Clubs that are moment of inertia (MOI) matched are assembled in the same manner,
          except for one detail. With MOI-matched sets the swingweight is progressive throughout.
          On average, each headweight increases by 8 grams per half-inch reduction in length,
          compared to 7 grams. The result is a set of irons in which the MOI of each club is constant
          and the swingweight is progressive, i.e., the swingweight increases as the irons get shorter.
          In the long irons or short irons, MOI-matched sets may feel different compared to traditional
          swingweight-matched sets, or you may have difficulty detecting any difference at all. If the
          head weights of the longest irons in both sets are exactly the same, the short irons of the
          MOI-matched set will be heavier than those of the swingweight-matched set, and they’ll
          have higher swingweights. If the head weights of the two sets’ short irons are similar, then
          the long irons of the MOI-matched set will be lighter than those of the swingweight-matched
          set.
          It is quite simple to build a set of MOI-matched irons without the expense of an MOImatching
          machine. The first method involves building a set of irons using the traditional
          half-inch length increment between heads. Simply adjust the head weights to 8-gram
          intervals, instead of the typical 7-gram difference. The MOI will match very closely
          throughout the set. Another method is to alter the length difference to 3/8 inch and keep the
          head weights 7 grams apart. Since the majority of heads are manufactured with a 7-gram
          weight interval, this is a simple assembly method — especially when adding weight to a
          head is not easily accomplished.
          In our continuing effort to help clubmakers move to the forefront of technology, Golfsmith
          has altered most of our 2008 new clubhead designs with an 8-gram weight difference
          between heads. This will streamline the building process for any clubmaker who wishes to
          try their hand at MOI-matching. Building to swingweight will still be possible if you wish.
          Simply adjust the head weights, starting with the heaviest head, and add weight to make
          the heads 7 grams apart.
          From 8 gram to 7 gram Set Adjustment
          [LEFT]8 gram Set
          101
          If you are mathematically inclined, the MOI of any club can be figured by using the
          appropriate formula. In this case MOI= Length˛ x (Head weight + Shaft weight/3). The
          length is the golf club’s final length, the shaft weight is the shaft’s cut weight before
          installation, and the head weight is simply the weight of the head. After doing the math, use
          the first four digits to the left of the answer and try to keep each club within one percent of
          the favorite club MOI.
          Last edited by Tintin; May 19, 2017, 02:21 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

            Tintin, that is super fantastic info!!

            OK, so if I attempt this what do you think is the best way to determine the MOI that suits me and build from.

            For example:

            take a PW and add some lad tape, then keep adding until it feels right? that will be the base SW and then scale down with .5 SW increments for each additional club?

            or

            (I read somewhere) take a PW and 3 Iron (or a 4i if you don't have one) find the best feeling MOI for each club and then graph the SW vs. 1/2" increments, draw a straight line between each point. The rest of the clubs SW will be determined where it meets on the chart.

            As you can tell, I love to tinker with stuff and this sounds very interesting, be really fun to mod my set.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

              From the Tutelman website. Bottom of the page. Only caveat is finding a light 3 iron to begin with. So a better method is to find your best feeling
              favourite iron and match everything else to it. Keep in mind that your wedges usually have higher swingweights to begin with.

              https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt4.php
              Then, on 13 July 2010, a GolfWRX member called DieselG produced the following post:
              I just built my "new" set of clubs. 3-L PING BeNi ISIs. I wanted to try something different this time - MOI matching.

              I remember reading in the past about MOI matching clubs, as opposed to a standard swingweighting (example D1 for all clubs.). I found a great link at Tutelman website about this principle, that if you increase SW about 1.3 for every inch the club gets shorter you will be pretty close to MOI matched.

              I took my old Eye2s out to the range and hit balls with the 3 iron, changing the swingweight until it felt "right". I then did the same with my Pitching Wedge until it felt right.

              To temporarily adjust SW, I used pennies, and/or nickels that I "molded" into a rounded shape (the same radius as the hosel), and temporarily attached them to the hosel with tape. Each penny (2.5 grams) gave me approx 1.25+ Swingweight, and each nickel (5 grams) was about 2.5+ swingwight. I had cut one penny in half to "fine tune" as well.

              Once I discovered what felt the best, I took them home and measured and found that my 3 iron felt best around D0 and my PW Felt best around D4.5.

              I then built my BeNi ISI irons using this slope, where the 3 iron = D0, 4 iron = D0.7, 5 iron = D1.5, 6 iron = D2.2, 7 iron = D2.7, 8 iron = D3.5, 9 iron = D4.2, PW = D4.5. SW and LW were both progressively heavier as well. I have a spreadsheet I made that allows me to calculate SW to the tenth, using weight and balance point.
              . . . . .

              The results were fantastic. I love the way these irons feel. I feel much more in control than I ever have on all irons.

              If you want to test this you might try the "taping pennies or nickels" to your clubs until you determine what feels best. One swingweight for all clubs may not work best for you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                Originally posted by Ricelude View Post
                Good read, thanks for the link.

                it just seems so involved and to think that going through that whole process would generate any real positives in your game. It's been around for some time, but rarely see this as an option for fittings.
                custom builders do it.

                it is more involved and time consuming so can ramp up costs.

                I used a method similar the what Andre posted ...in the good ol days we called it "poor mans MOI build" more math involved is all
                "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                  Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                  ...I took my old Eye2s out to the range and hit balls with the 3 iron, changing the swingweight until it felt "right". I then did the same with my Pitching Wedge until it felt right.[/FONT]...

                  I then built my BeNi ISI irons using this slope, where the 3 iron = D0, 4 iron = D0.7, 5 iron = D1.5, 6 iron = D2.2, 7 iron = D2.7, 8 iron = D3.5, 9 iron = D4.2, PW = D4.5. SW and LW were both progressively heavier as well. I have a spreadsheet I made that allows me to calculate SW to the tenth, using weight and balance point.
                  As per this article, its a good approach to take the longest and shortest iron, find the most comfortable SW/MOI, take the difference, divide it by the number of clubs in the set, and that's the incremental SW increase per club. By doing this, you may actually not get the 1.3SW per inch to have a MOI match set, but rather a setup suited for the players feel.

                  Anyone actually take one of these routs to figure out their SW spread?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                    I build to progressive swing weights all the time and the feedback from my players is nothing but positive. I play this as well and with the combination of True Length Technology fitting procedures you end up with a reduced longest to shortest length set - with lies set to the math model, and the playability, directional control and consistent feel remains very high.

                    Like stated above wedges are often a bit higher due to designers still making wedge heads a few grams heavier, but I do prefer a heavier feel in the wedges.

                    Anyone looking for a completely math modelled build, based on a TLT fitting involving a 4, 7 and PW to prove out the length's are correct, then the progressive swing weight build for a MOI theorised build - I can help.

                    My approach to how I determining the swing weight progression is a bit different that stated above due to the progressive lengths involved with the TLT build, but my theories have been well tested with very positive results.

                    Appointments are required so give me a call or email me for an appointment.
                    Regards
                    Dan

                    Dan's Custom Golf Shop - Sponsor
                    True Length Technology TM
                    Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
                    True Frequency Technology TM
                    - Developer / Owner

                    Maltby Clubmaking Academy
                    - Master
                    Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
                    - Advanced / Professional
                    Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
                    - Class 'A'

                    Phone : 905-263-8510
                    Hampton, ON
                    Appointment only
                    Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
                    E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                      Originally posted by Ricelude View Post
                      Anyone actually take one of these routs to figure out their SW spread?
                      Take a look at page 6. Hybrid type way of matching for heft.
                      https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt6.php

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                        Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                        Take a look at page 6. Hybrid type way of matching for heft.
                        https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt6.php
                        That seems to make the most sense, rather than taking one club to build from.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                          Very interesting.

                          I think it's time to head to the workshop for a little bit of experimenting.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tintin View Post
                            Re: Swing Weight vs MOI fitting

                            From the Tutelman website. Bottom of the page. Only caveat is finding a light 3 iron to begin with. So a better method is to find your best feeling
                            favourite iron and match everything else to it. Keep in mind that your wedges usually have higher swingweights to begin with.

                            https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt4.php
                            Then, on 13 July 2010, a GolfWRX member called DieselG produced the following post:
                            I just built my "new" set of clubs. 3-L PING BeNi ISIs. I wanted to try something different this time - MOI matching.

                            I remember reading in the past about MOI matching clubs, as opposed to a standard swingweighting (example D1 for all clubs.). I found a great link at Tutelman website about this principle, that if you increase SW about 1.3 for every inch the club gets shorter you will be pretty close to MOI matched.

                            I took my old Eye2s out to the range and hit balls with the 3 iron, changing the swingweight until it felt "right". I then did the same with my Pitching Wedge until it felt right.

                            To temporarily adjust SW, I used pennies, and/or nickels that I "molded" into a rounded shape (the same radius as the hosel), and temporarily attached them to the hosel with tape. Each penny (2.5 grams) gave me approx 1.25+ Swingweight, and each nickel (5 grams) was about 2.5+ swingwight. I had cut one penny in half to "fine tune" as well.

                            Once I discovered what felt the best, I took them home and measured and found that my 3 iron felt best around D0 and my PW Felt best around D4.5.

                            I then built my BeNi ISI irons using this slope, where the 3 iron = D0, 4 iron = D0.7, 5 iron = D1.5, 6 iron = D2.2, 7 iron = D2.7, 8 iron = D3.5, 9 iron = D4.2, PW = D4.5. SW and LW were both progressively heavier as well. I have a spreadsheet I made that allows me to calculate SW to the tenth, using weight and balance point.
                            . . . . .

                            The results were fantastic. I love the way these irons feel. I feel much more in control than I ever have on all irons.

                            If you want to test this you might try the "taping pennies or nickels" to your clubs until you determine what feels best. One swingweight for all clubs may not work best for you.
                            I feel this is one of the best ways to do it. I understand Math and MOI and headweight, but feel is a completely different and important part of setting things up. I did the above with an old set of Ping eye2s. It's amazing how a golfer can sense what feels best in each iron, then weighing the lead tape, and finding the player knew his or hers MOI. If a player likes the feel of a club it probably result in more confidence in playability. I knew a fitter that would ask for a players favorite club, measure it, and build the rest from the specs of that club. Lead tape is your friend.
                            ​​​​

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