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Pace of Play? (tournament)

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  • #16
    Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

    [QUOTE=JGT4;899984]
    Originally posted by drawbias View Post
    Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
    I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

    "Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

    The very definition of a public player is one who is not a member of a club. Once he joins a club, he loses his status as a public player - as did Dave Bunker last year when he joined Brampton.

    Add yes, if you want to play in a Golf Association of Ontario tournament, you have to be a member in one category or another, hence the term association.

    The fellow that you refer to joined a non-member club. His beef really ought to be with the club that doesn't believe in paying membership dues - I'll guarantee that they still use their course rating even though they aren't paying to do so.

    Anyway, my rant is over, as I see is yours, so onwards and upwards.
    Asked my buddy about your comment - he did give the course owner the gears and the guy told him he paid into the association for years - 2 to 3 grand a year. Saw a course rater once in 5 yrs - guy spent 2 hours doing the rating. Got the use of the hdcp system, which he replaced with a $25 software package.
    The course rating is still listed on the scorecard - he had a ton printed up and his comment was "for what I paid to them , I won't lose any sleep over continuing to use it".

    He said Dave Bunker played in the Better ball, Mid Am and Am - he had no opportunity to do that as a 'member of a non-member club" . They revoked his Public player status but never refunded the money.

    End of rant - just wanted to be sure all the facts are on the table.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

      [QUOTE=drawbias;900802]
      Originally posted by JGT4 View Post

      Asked my buddy about your comment - he did give the course owner the gears and the guy told him he paid into the association for years - 2 to 3 grand a year. Saw a course rater once in 5 yrs - guy spent 2 hours doing the rating. Got the use of the hdcp system, which he replaced with a $25 software package.
      The course rating is still listed on the scorecard - he had a ton printed up and his comment was "for what I paid to them , I won't lose any sleep over continuing to use it".

      He said Dave Bunker played in the Better ball, Mid Am and Am - he had no opportunity to do that as a 'member of a non-member club" . They revoked his Public player status but never refunded the money.

      End of rant - just wanted to be sure all the facts are on the table.
      We have probably gone a way further along this line of discussion than we should have in this forum.
      Last edited by A Man Called Papa; Feb 17, 2012, 11:42 AM.
      People who lose faith in golf commonly convert to Catholicism, because the rules are easier to live with.

      Golf: - The Agony and the Ecstasy

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

        [QUOTE=A Man Called Papa;900831]
        Originally posted by drawbias View Post

        First of all, we have probably gone a way further along this line of discussion than we should have in this forum.

        You seem to have missed the point. An unaffiliated player can sign up with the GAO as a Public Player. However, a Member of a non-affiliated course cannot. Whether or not you agree with this policy, it is the way things are.

        You also appear to have a misunderstanding as to whose money is paid to the GAO.

        As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said: "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

        Excerpt from a online definition of a fact;

        1. Something believed to be true or real

        2. A thing that has been done, especially a crime.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

          [QUOTE=JGT4;899984]
          Originally posted by drawbias View Post
          Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
          I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

          "Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

          The very definition of a public player is one who is not a member of a club. Once he joins a club, he loses his status as a public player - as did Dave Bunker last year when he joined Brampton.


          Add yes, if you want to play in a Golf Association of Ontario tournament, you have to be a member in one category or another, hence the term association.

          The fellow that you refer to joined a non-member club. His beef really ought to be with the club that doesn't believe in paying membership dues - I'll guarantee that they still use their course rating even though they aren't paying to do so.

          Anyway, my rant is over, as I see is yours, so onwards and upwards.
          I have no dog in this fight, but I'd like clarification on the bolded bit above. It seems overly restrictive.

          IF someone is a member at two clubs, one GAO and one not, I assume they can/are a GAO club member.

          IF someone is a member at a non-GAO club, how can they be restricted from being a public member? Especially if they still play some rounds at public courses?

          How did that play out for Dave Bunker?
          Confusion will be my epitaph
          ...Iggy

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

            [QUOTE=Ignatius Reilly;900853]
            Originally posted by JGT4 View Post

            I have no dog in this fight, but I'd like clarification on the bolded bit above. It seems overly restrictive.

            IF someone is a member at two clubs, one GAO and one not, I assume they can/are a GAO club member.

            IF someone is a member at a non-GAO club, how can they be restricted from being a public member? Especially if they still play some rounds at public courses?

            How did that play out for Dave Bunker?
            While not getting into opinions of GAO Policies, I'll take a moment to clarify what JGT4 has already set out.

            There are two categories of players who can participate in GAO Events. Those who are Members of GAO affiliated courses, and individuals (Public Players) who are not Members of any course. If you choose to be a Member of a course which for whatever reason elects to carry on outside of the RCGA/GAO umbrella, then you cannot be registered with the GAO as a player who meets their definition of a Public Player. Also, if you are a Member of one of their courses, then by their definition, you are no longer a Public Player (Bunker's situation when after playing as a Public Player, he joined Brampton, moving from Public Player to Member of a RCGA/GAO member course.

            Above, Larry Longo, Tournament Manager of the GAO is quoted as simply stating the GAO published policy. Having your Members participate in GAO events is one of the features of a club being an RCGA/GAO member. To take the conversation to the next level would require an involved discussion of individual and club's and owner's attitude toward support for the overall structure of the game. Such a discussion in my opinion belongs on a different forum.
            Last edited by A Man Called Papa; Feb 17, 2012, 02:07 PM.
            People who lose faith in golf commonly convert to Catholicism, because the rules are easier to live with.

            Golf: - The Agony and the Ecstasy

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

              It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
              Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
              What's In The Bag:
              Driver: Taylormade M2 9.5*
              3 Wood: Taylormade M2 15*
              Utility(s): TM Superfast 18*
              Irons: Cally Big Bertha 7-AW
              Wedge: Cleveland Forged 588 60*
              Putter: STX Sync 4

              What's In The Bag FLA:
              Driver: Talyormade M2 9*
              3 Wood: Taylormade M2 15*
              Utility(s): TM Superfast 18* Cobra 26* 32*
              Irons: Cally Big Bertha 7-AW
              Wedge: Cleveland 56* 60*
              Putter: STX Sync 4

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                Originally posted by just123123 View Post
                It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
                Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
                No. It is not about where you play, it is about where you are, or are not, a Member. Again, if you are a Member of any course, you not allowed to pay a separate fee and register as a GAO Public Player. To play in GAO events, you must either be a member of a RCGA/GAO club or be a Public Player GAO Member. (There are some special policies to deal with players from outside of the GAO jurisdiction such as the Ottawa Region.)
                Last edited by A Man Called Papa; Feb 17, 2012, 05:10 PM.
                People who lose faith in golf commonly convert to Catholicism, because the rules are easier to live with.

                Golf: - The Agony and the Ecstasy

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                  Originally posted by just123123 View Post
                  It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
                  Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
                  I just went to the GAO website and followed the procedure to join the public player programme. The very first screen has one, and only one question,
                  on it.

                  Are you a club member?

                  If you answer Yes, then this is what you see next.

                  Can I join the Public Player Program if my club is not a member of the GAO/Golf Canada?
                  No. The Public Player Program was created for golfers who are not members of Private or Semi-Private Golf Clubs. You cannot gain access to membership or services through this program without relinquishing your membership at your club.







                  I agree with Papa that if we are going to move into a debate on the merits of this, we should move it to a different board. Although we are kind of low on rules issues at the moment.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                    Originally posted by JGT4 View Post

                    Can I join the Public Player Program if my club is not a member of the GAO/Golf Canada?
                    No. The Public Player Program was created for golfers who are not members of Private or Semi-Private Golf Clubs. You cannot gain access to membership or services through this program without relinquishing your membership at your club.
                    Are juniors excepted?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                      See post #22.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                        Originally posted by Shadow View Post
                        Are juniors excepted?
                        GAO Junior Eligibility Statement:


                        "Juniors must be members of the Golf Association of Ontario to participate in any GAO tournaments (including GAO Junior tournaments)."
                        People who lose faith in golf commonly convert to Catholicism, because the rules are easier to live with.

                        Golf: - The Agony and the Ecstasy

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                          So much for me playing in a GAO tournament this summer as I will be joining the Highlands at Bradford. I guess I will be able to track my handicap on the Golf Canada site until I join the non-member club.

                          Originally posted by A Man Called Papa View Post
                          No. It is not about where you play, it is about where you are, or are not, a Member. Again, if you are a Member of any course, you not allowed to pay a separate fee and register as a GAO Public Player. To play in GAO events, you must either be a member of a RCGA/GAO club or be a Public Player GAO Member. (There are some special policies to deal with players from outside of the GAO jurisdiction such as the Ottawa Region.)
                          This isn't a dress rehearsal. Enjoy yourself. There's no do-over.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                            Hmmmmm... thanks for that. So it's again about honor. If you are a member of a non GAO course and you check the "non member box...you're in? Who's going to know?
                            It also makes you wonder, why an individual should be excluded from playing events just because the course they belong to doesn't want to be a GAO member. Is the GAO potentially losing individual member dollars? Are they trying to penalize golfers & their clubs by not participating in the GAO? Is there a dollar factor at play here? Some sort of power struggle? Can someone explain why the GAO is limiting potential members?



                            Originally posted by JGT4 View Post
                            I just went to the GAO website and followed the procedure to join the public player programme. The very first screen has one, and only one question,
                            on it.

                            Are you a club member?

                            If you answer Yes, then this is what you see next.

                            Can I join the Public Player Program if my club is not a member of the GAO/Golf Canada?
                            No. The Public Player Program was created for golfers who are not members of Private or Semi-Private Golf Clubs. You cannot gain access to membership or services through this program without relinquishing your membership at your club.







                            I agree with Papa that if we are going to move into a debate on the merits of this, we should move it to a different board. Although we are kind of low on rules issues at the moment.
                            Originally posted by A Man Called Papa View Post
                            No. It is not about where you play, it is about where you are, or are not, a Member. Again, if you are a Member of any course, you not allowed to pay a separate fee and register as a GAO Public Player. To play in GAO events, you must either be a member of a RCGA/GAO club or be a Public Player GAO Member. (There are some special policies to deal with players from outside of the GAO jurisdiction such as the Ottawa Region.)
                            What's In The Bag:
                            Driver: Taylormade M2 9.5*
                            3 Wood: Taylormade M2 15*
                            Utility(s): TM Superfast 18*
                            Irons: Cally Big Bertha 7-AW
                            Wedge: Cleveland Forged 588 60*
                            Putter: STX Sync 4

                            What's In The Bag FLA:
                            Driver: Talyormade M2 9*
                            3 Wood: Taylormade M2 15*
                            Utility(s): TM Superfast 18* Cobra 26* 32*
                            Irons: Cally Big Bertha 7-AW
                            Wedge: Cleveland 56* 60*
                            Putter: STX Sync 4

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                              Originally posted by just123123 View Post
                              Hmmmmm... thanks for that. So it's again about honor. If you are a member of a non GAO course and you check the "non member box...you're in? Who's going to know?
                              It also makes you wonder, why an individual should be excluded from playing events just because the course they belong to doesn't want to be a GAO member. Is the GAO potentially losing individual member dollars? Are they trying to penalize golfers & their clubs by not participating in the GAO? Is there a dollar factor at play here? Some sort of power struggle? Can someone explain why the GAO is limiting potential members?
                              Yes to most of your questions.
                              I dont know the detailed working of the GAO, but I believe it is funded by members and member courses. Some courses don't join the GAO, thus avoiding the membership fees. So, IMO, fair enough that they cannot participate in GAO funded events.
                              I also note that public courses, like Indian Wells, are not members of GAO so they don't have an official slope rating for their course. So if you play at Indian Wells and go to enter your score in the GAO handicap system, you will not find Indian Wells there.
                              I am sure there are others on this forum with much more information on this subject.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

                                It's one thing to deny the clubs that don't pay their dues, the benefits of membership. It's quite another to deny them to individuals who are more than willing to pay their dues to join the association. The policy is clearly directed at discouraging those who would like to play in tournaments from joining clubs who are not members of the GAO. From my perspective, this policy is wrong-headed.

                                Originally posted by Playthru View Post
                                Yes to most of your questions.
                                I dont know the detailed working of the GAO, but I believe it is funded by members and member courses. Some courses don't join the GAO, thus avoiding the membership fees. So, IMO, fair enough that they cannot participate in GAO funded events.
                                I also note that public courses, like Indian Wells, are not members of GAO so they don't have an official slope rating for their course. So if you play at Indian Wells and go to enter your score in the GAO handicap system, you will not find Indian Wells there.
                                I am sure there are others on this forum with much more information on this subject.
                                This isn't a dress rehearsal. Enjoy yourself. There's no do-over.

                                Comment

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