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MOI fittings
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Tintin View PostThe both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?
TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.
Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :
Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
Want to know how to tinker with your own clubs? Whats MOI? Whats the latest in club fitting technology? Use this forum to ask the experts or share your own tips and practices.
Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
Dan helped me to understand, that for very tall players with conventional length irons, or stock wedges cut too darn short, that golfers will adjust to get down to the ball.
I was going to wait until the spring/summer to observe golfers on the course, before I comment further on the spine angle.
Tintin I hope you don't take exception to this approach, as I collect some observations.Adams XTD Ti 12.5* / TightLies 2 Ti / Super 9031 Tour / Ping WRX i20 Irons
Ping WRX Tour Gorge / YES Natalie Putter B-CG / Leupold GX-4 Rangefinder
Personal Best: 79, hoping for another sub 80 round before the Twilight Zone
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Tintin View PostThe both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?
TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.
Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :
Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
Want to know how to tinker with your own clubs? Whats MOI? Whats the latest in club fitting technology? Use this forum to ask the experts or share your own tips and practices.
Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
But from my experience with my TLT build knee flex and spine angle are pretty close to the exact same wit all clubs. They very well may be or may not be but as the user they sure do feel it.
The difference between TLT and say SL which opts to give same sound angle swing and knee flex is that with TLT my ball position and hand position do change slightly as does distance from ball.
I've tried SL and even though it sounds very similar. To me it was very different. With TLT I'm still varying my AOA with ball position. SL shouldn't. Part of the problem with SL for me is the mental aspect. (Ie looking at a low lofted 4i and having it closer to middle of my stance or a PW that's so far up with a long shaft)
With TLT I the "Indian" control trajectory spin etc while maintaining almost identical if it better launch characteristics then with a stock OEM set (ie long irons have some roll and short irons are able to stop quick. And I can vary this to some degree)
With SL I found it was much more the "arrow" then the Indian. Obviously you still need to put a good swing on it however all clubs are meant to be swung the same way. I found my long irons went shorter distances and my short irons went about the same but had way to much roll. I was finding myself trying to vary ball position to aadjust spin. To me this defeated the purpose of SL.
Also tLt like OEM is still very workable (trajectory and shot shape) SL for me was not as workable.
As for MOI. I believe in the concepts of MOI however I tend to agree with fitters like Dan, Tom Wishon, Howard Jones. (I believe Maltby is of the same mindset also)
You must first fit for proper length, lie, and shaft weight. Flex, SW and or MOI are good but not at the compromise of the first 3.
As for my TLT set I believe I'm a series 6 or 7? My set ranges in SW from D2.5-D6 (my LW is an outlier at E0) having a buddy check them on an MOI scale the 4-PW were almost perfectly MOI matched. My 52* was close and my 58 was slightly different.
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Jasonp View PostAs for my TLT set I believe I'm a series 6 or 7? My set ranges in SW from D2.5-D6 (my LW is an outlier at E0) having a buddy check them on an MOI scale the 4-PW were almost perfectly MOI matched. My 52* was close and my 58 was slightly different.
It could be a higher MOI or a lower MOI than what you are getting.
When fitted by Dan were impact labels used?
Fitters use impact labels to either determine:
1)proper length
2) proper MOI
3) Lie angles
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Re: MOI fittings
I've tried SL and even though it sounds very similar. To me it was very different. With TLT I'm still varying my AOA with ball position. SL shouldn't
I played a set of SL irons extensively this season. I made them from conventional Wishon 752 heads, drilling out weight low on the wedges etc and adding lead tape low on the longer irons. The head weight was 271g. Length 37", in superlight steel. I stopped at a 30* 6 iron. I could only get marginal height out of the 5 iron except from the tee or a flushed hit off the fairway. This is my 3rd and by far most successful build of SL irons.
I tried a softer shaft, less tip trim, in my 6 iron. It didn't help the trajectory any, but it did affect my swing negatively.
As to other points raised here:
-Varying offset throughout my set created no problem whatsoever. I was glad to have it because it helps with keeping shorter irons down and longer ones up. I dislike SL designs that have the exact same casting but with different lofts. That is a simplistic way of designing, without considering the trajectory goals. Pinhawks, for example.
-Ball position is not the big deal with SL irons. The fact that you are swinging one club over and over is the big deal. With this set, by playing only one club, I learned to move the ball back and forward in order to work the ball low and high. Once I learned it with one club, I had it with all of them, automatically.
You no more need to have "ONE" ball position with SL than you do with your regular clubs. If a golfer is expected to be able to learn now to hit a ball lower or higher with regular clubs, why not with SL? The extension of this is that you might want to play your SL PW an inch rearward and your longer irons an inch forward. Might. If you can, that's good! If not, oh well, no big deal. But there is this mindset that you have to find the exact ball position for SL clubs and stick to it. No. Once you get familiar with your one club, you can do what you want with it, subject to your skills.
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Tintin View PostFair enough JasonP. It does not mean that the MOI is right for you though.
It could be a higher MOI or a lower MOI than what you are getting.
When fitted by Dan were impact labels used?
Fitters use impact labels to either determine:
1)proper length
2) proper MOI
3) Lie angles
His fitting involved taking swings with my clubs and then 3 different TLT sets. Dan analyzed my swings and address positions to help me determine which series fit me best. This was done off of grass however no balls hit. We were easily able to see if I was fat or thin.
I did advise Dan of what I felt were some flaws that I could see. I was lucky because I was already fitted for my CTapers S so we knew based on questions he asked they were a good fit for my retro build.
The issues i identified that would make TLT fitting experience better would be.
1) hitting net with balls
2) I wasn't sure exactly the shaft weights/flex were in the TLT test clubs. The feels of these could make them appear as an illfit IMO. I suggested "more TLT clubs as test clubs.
Essentially have at least the most popular series in R, S and X Flex.
Have the R in 3 weight ranges Sub 100g, 100-110g, 120+ or some mid basically light mid and heavy
Suggest same for S flex
x flex canbe just mid and heavy
I've tried "MOI" I don't buy it in the sense of right or wrong. Unless a moi is grossly too high or too low.
However if you ask Wishon or Howard Jones if you find the proper shaft weight in a fitting and decide to MOI match you will be within a comfortable MOI range. In which it is pretty impossible to have an MOIthats too high or low.
And I think that's why I had such success with my TLT as I've already been fit for shafts and my build was a retro build. I knew a 115-125g shaft was optimal for me in a Stiff flex.
Given i was a series 7 (just checked) my build didn't get extremely long or short. I can see MOI issues if I had to get super long (likely would need a lighter shaft and stiffer)
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by TourIQ View PostI
I was going to wait until the spring/summer to observe golfers on the course, before I comment further on the spine angle.
Tintin I hope you don't take exception to this approach, as I collect some observations.
list as you've been at it for quite some time
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Re: MOI fittings
Tintin
As for SL. Yes varying ball position was effective at manipulating height. However. If I moved it forward to get say a "normal height" spin was a touch too low. If I tried to get a high shot goodluck holding a green. And adding spin resulted in low shots. I think a 37.25+" 9i/wedge had to do with that.
With my current setup I can hit spinny shots that are a touch lower but still nice height. Or higher softer shots with still enough spin to not fly a green
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Tintin View PostI'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I am surprised that it isn't on your
list as you've been at it for quite some time
http://www.golfdna.com/150methods.htmAdams XTD Ti 12.5* / TightLies 2 Ti / Super 9031 Tour / Ping WRX i20 Irons
Ping WRX Tour Gorge / YES Natalie Putter B-CG / Leupold GX-4 Rangefinder
Personal Best: 79, hoping for another sub 80 round before the Twilight Zone
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Jasonp View PostTintin
As for SL. Yes varying ball position was effective at manipulating height. However. If I moved it forward to get say a "normal height" spin was a touch too low. If I tried to get a high shot goodluck holding a green. And adding spin resulted in low shots. I think a 37.25+" 9i/wedge had to do with that.
With my current setup I can hit spinny shots that are a touch lower but still nice height. Or higher softer shots with still enough spin to not fly a green
Your Titleist AP2-4 iron is set at 61* of lie. The TLT series 7 4 iron length is very close to 37.25 (Actually a tad over 1/16 longer) Originally it was set at
38.50 so by going TLT the club was shortened 1.25 inches+- peanuts
However the loft of your AP2 4 iron is set at 23 degrees and some SL 4 iron(Pinhawk for example) is set at 20 degrees.For a truer or more exact comparison you should have compared the Pinhawk 5 iron vs your AP2 5 iron ( 25 loft vs 26)
IMHO the real deal or game changer between the 2 happens from the 9 iron on down.
Over the holidays I was in contact with Cobra(Puma)
In my opinion 37.25 SL is too much on the long side. for a set of SL. I was told however that they can be custom fitted.
At over $1000 though I will wait for rgk5's review
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Re: MOI fittings
I got to try the cobra SL. Are they not 37.25"? Maybe they're 37.5
As for my 4i it had 24* of loft and was 38.5" and I think 61* Lie
It is now at 24* loft 38.1" and 59* lie
My wedges are 36.35" at 64* lie.
I have a reduced length TLT build and I'm almost certain it was series 7?
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Jasonp View PostI got to try the cobra SL. Are they not 37.25"? Maybe they're 37.5
As for my 4i it had 24* of loft and was 38.5" and I think 61* Lie
It is now at 24* loft 38.1" and 59* lie
My wedges are 36.35" at 64* lie.
I have a reduced length TLT build and I'm almost certain it was series 7?
but can be custom made to shorter or longer.
The numbers posted above are series 7. If the lie had been kept at 61 then the length would have been 37.35
Glad they worked out for you.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: MOI fittings
I'm lucky enough to know a mizuno rep, who's also friends with a Cobra rep. Also know another guy who knows a cobra rep who was invited to try the stuff. I tagged along.
I think if SL was the first set I had ever hit it could maybe work? I just think SL designs need to evolve a bit more to help with optimal launch conditions.
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Tintin View PostThe both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?
TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.
Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :
Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
Want to know how to tinker with your own clubs? Whats MOI? Whats the latest in club fitting technology? Use this forum to ask the experts or share your own tips and practices.
Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
TLT actually is very compatible with MOI - just like 3/8'ths of an inch increment. Your comments about the long and short Series will create high and low MOI values - outside of what most talk about as normal, but that is because I put the length way ahead of the MOI value. You don't hear many talk of MOI when doing reduced or extended length very often.
A long TLT Series will produce higher MOI numbers than what we traditionally see, but there is no way of lowering these numbers due to the length of the club. But I always will put length ahead of MOI. In a set that perhaps has a 38" wedge the MOI value will be high and a lighter shaft (or head) is the only way to reduce. This does get considered when choosing the shaft. By the way I have a great number of customers who do play 38" wedges and are playing some of the best golf of their life. These are very big powerful men that really don't care that a golf club weighs 30g more.
As far as your comments on knee and spine - yes I am after one singular position. My recommendation is to NOT alter this position, but like Jason stated, he does change the AOA. This I consider a players choice, but the singular athletic address position is my goal.Regards
Dan
True Length Technology TM
Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
True Frequency Technology TM
- Developer / Owner
Maltby Clubmaking Academy
- Master
Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
- Advanced / Professional
Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
- Class 'A'
Comment
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Re: MOI fittings
Originally posted by Jasonp View PostNo impact labels were used. I suggested to dan this and a hitting net.
His fitting involved taking swings with my clubs and then 3 different TLT sets. Dan analyzed my swings and address positions to help me determine which series fit me best. This was done off of grass however no balls hit. We were easily able to see if I was fat or thin.
I did advise Dan of what I felt were some flaws that I could see. I was lucky because I was already fitted for my CTapers S so we knew based on questions he asked they were a good fit for my retro build.
The issues i identified that would make TLT fitting experience better would be.
1) hitting net with balls
2) I wasn't sure exactly the shaft weights/flex were in the TLT test clubs. The feels of these could make them appear as an illfit IMO. I suggested "more TLT clubs as test clubs.
Essentially have at least the most popular series in R, S and X Flex.
Have the R in 3 weight ranges Sub 100g, 100-110g, 120+ or some mid basically light mid and heavy
Suggest same for S flex
x flex canbe just mid and heavy
I've tried "MOI" I don't buy it in the sense of right or wrong. Unless a moi is grossly too high or too low.
However if you ask Wishon or Howard Jones if you find the proper shaft weight in a fitting and decide to MOI match you will be within a comfortable MOI range. In which it is pretty impossible to have an MOIthats too high or low.
And I think that's why I had such success with my TLT as I've already been fit for shafts and my build was a retro build. I knew a 115-125g shaft was optimal for me in a Stiff flex.
Given i was a series 7 (just checked) my build didn't get extremely long or short. I can see MOI issues if I had to get super long (likely would need a lighter shaft and stiffer)
My TLT fitting rack has been a tool to confirm the correct length and lie - allowing the player to swing a long (4) a mid (7) and a short club (PW) in each of the series. This way they can confirm that each end of their iron set will in fact keep them athletic.
There is an additional 15 clubs or so that have shaft weight from 40g - 130 in irons and 50 - 90g for the drivers so total weight can be tested. Over time more clubs get added as additional testing is sometimes required.Regards
Dan
True Length Technology TM
Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
True Frequency Technology TM
- Developer / Owner
Maltby Clubmaking Academy
- Master
Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
- Advanced / Professional
Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
- Class 'A'
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