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Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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  • #16
    Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

    Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
    My take on it:
    Because of the size and colours in the dispersion chart I wasn't sure I was reading it properly, but it looked to me like the MP25s performed way better than the SL set. Is that right?
    That's what I took from it too. Except for a questionable gap in the distance of his 6i to 5i (167 to 191 I think), the 25 combination seemed to be straighter and at least 1 club longer on average. So if we tie in Ryan's comments on DeChambeau's swing speed of 125 with a driver (so likely around 100 with a 6 iron), he doesn't need the extra distance a progressive set offers. He is likely hitting the sweetspot 99.5% of the time (as will most touring pros). As I took from it, the only real improvement with the SL clubs over the progressives was more consistent yardage gappings between each club. But I still argue that this is very achievable with any set, regardless of SL or progressive. As any club fitter worth their salt would be able to see that, in Ryan's case, the 5i is going almost 24 yards longer than the 6i on average, and his 6 only has a 7 yard gap from the 7. So in this case, it would make sense, assuming he wasn't dead tired at this point and making sloppy swings, that the 6 iron needs to be bumped up in loft a degree or two to accommodate proper gapping of 10-12 yards per club. He could maybe even stand to weaken the 5i a hair.

    But hey, it's only 1 test...the manufacturers know what they are doing in terms of lofts for optimal distance gapping and progression. I will trust them.

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    • #17
      Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

      i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
      i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
      (bad back...i am tall etc)
      so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

      would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

      but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

      i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

      saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
      "well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

      anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
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      • #18
        Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

        Originally posted by rgk5 View Post
        That was not trolling as he asked you a legitimate question.

        Where is this "large customer base", the word customer implying they have SL clubs? I've seen thousands of clubs come into GT over the last 13 years for regripping and have not seen one SL club including the ill fated Armour EQL design. Nor have I seen one on the course even though I play over 100 rounds per year in Canada and the USA.
        I believe that Dan and Jim ( Kona Golf) are the only two distributors of SL clubs in Canada and both just recently started doing so I wouldn't expect that you would see many if any in Canada. Perhaps they can confirm and comment on what they have observed in their short time as distributors.

        The Wishon sets are still in production afaik , due out in May. Dan and other Wishon club fitters will then have the ability to build those sets.

        Outside of David Lake's design, The SL concept that has just been pushing through in the last 2 years so very new. The Pinhawk SL heads have been selling out in the US. ....From their website

        "PLEASE NOTE: We are sold out until our next shipment that arrives late in May. We will take preorders on these as that shipment gets closer and we have an exact time frame on their arrival. The best way to be aware of when we are opening up preorders is to subscribe to our newsletter HERE. We apologize for the delay, but with the popularity of these it's out of our control - we are at the mercy of the manufacturing foundry and their backlog. "

        From what I hear, pre demand for the Wishon sets is high.

        SL are built by custom fitters ( and some hobbyists) so I doubt that GT will see much for grip replacement even if they do become popular , they will be brought to the builder or done themselves. I haven't ever brought a club to GT to get a grip installed , it doesn't mean the clubs I use aren't popular or aren't good.

        Whether SL continues to gain exposure who knows. Right now the only distributors/manufacturers are are those in the " component" world . There are some golfers who don't believe that a golf club can be any good unless it carries a brand name. Perhaps a major name will adopt the concept perhaps they won't and the SL concept will remain as an option used only by some custom fitters who use components?

        Some very good club concepts that originated in the component world have gone on to be adopted by the OEM's ( moveable weights, adjustable hosels , shaft adaptors to south shafts, square drivers to name a few ) only time will tell if SL will do the same.
        Last edited by Weirfan; Mar 16, 2016, 10:19 AM.
        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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        • #19
          Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

          Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
          DCBABY says: "Not saying touring pro's aren't smart, but what got there is the ability to adjust to each club and excel."

          If pros can adjust to each club, surely they can adjust to SL.
          IMHO: For most, especially pros, practice is conscious and playing is unconscious. Adding variables moves the playing into the conscious side of things. Not good when your playing pays your bills, or your education.

          Most definitely they could adapt; but why when what they have works. Why risk all they been grooved to do.

          Maybe 5-10 years down the line, we'll see this becoming more common in the collegiate and pro ranks.

          IMHO, SL clubs allowed DeChambeau to move into the unconscious side of playing.

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          • #20
            Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

            Originally posted by sharkhark View Post
            i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
            i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
            (bad back...i am tall etc)
            so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

            would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

            but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

            i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

            saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
            "well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

            anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
            Tommy Armour tried this a few years ago with their EQL and it didnt catch on. I dont think anyone here is bashing at all. IF they worked better then some OEM would build them and they would sell . Pretty simple. The idea makes sense to a degree ...I just can't figure out how I would hit a 7 iron length club 220 yards with a 4 iron head on it.

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            • #21
              Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

              Originally posted by cuonthe1t View Post
              Perhaps not irons but back when Accuform was in its heyday I asked if they would make up a set of - Driver -2wood -- 4wood and 5 wood at all 5 wood length- played them for 15 years --- and have played with a few people over the last 40 years with woods at the same length
              Yes, true. But I think we can all agree that woods are too long to begin with. From personal experience, I play my woods "short" compared to manufacturer standards, but about on par with tour player lengths. 45" driver, 42.75 or 43 inch 3 wood and I think 42" 5 wood. I can't remember off the top of my head, but those seem to ring a bell.

              I think a better option would be to play a driver at 44.5-44.75 inches, which is actually the standard Cobra as adopted the past two years. And then play accordingly long fairways. So maybe 42.5 3 wood and and 41.5 5. It is no secret either that shorter = more control. Therefore, it could be argued that in a SL set your long irons would provide you more control, your 6/7 iron would see no change, and your 8-PW would actually be more erratic because they are longer than standard, by up to 2.5 inches if you compare a PW to a "standard" 6 iron length, going in typical .5 inch increments.

              WeirFan's idea may be the best of both worlds, but it would be MEGA hard to adjust to. Single length wedges, fine, sure I am on board with that, and then single length mid irons, single length long irons, and then single length woods. It might be the answer and sounds like it could work on paper. At the same time though, you are always dealing with one or two clubs that are much shorter than standard, one or two that are bang on standard, and a few that are massively long to standard. Again, based off of conventional length setups.

              Personally, I just feel that the potential distance discrepancies that are fixed are not enough to make the average guy switch to something like this. If we take Ryan's post as gospel (since I haven't seen any other launch monitor data of a similar test), then the average guy will stand to lose about 1 club of total distance in long/mid irons, and then as the set progresses shorter to a 7iron, suddenly they re-gain the distance back, but now control becomes an issue.

              Call me a nay-sayer all you want. I just see more merit to progressive lengths. I think clubs need to be about 1/2 shorter than they are now, so back to "standard" of about 8-10 years ago. But that's beside the point. As long as manufacturers keep putting in these light weight, soft shafts, they need the extra length to get a reasonable swing weight without making the head as heavy as a sledgehammer and risk weakening the shaft in flex any further.

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              • #22
                Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                Originally posted by sharkhark View Post
                i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
                i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
                (bad back...i am tall etc)
                so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

                would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

                but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

                i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

                saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
                "well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

                anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
                No one is bashing or "dripping with disgust". I simply stated that the concept has never been greatly accepted by the golfing public. The EQL set was poorly executed and by that time, Tommy Armour was on the down slide. Knowing the OEMs as well as I do and viewing the static state of the game, if they thought they could augment their revenue stream with single length clubs it would have happened already. Companies like Wishon and Pinhawk serve a very small segment of the market with quality products and Chris and I never stated otherwise.
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                • #23
                  Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                  Regarding the testing /experiment and findings of the author and his comparison of his mp25 set to a single length set.

                  I have no idea how old he is but let's say 50.

                  He's comparing the dispertion of a design of set length he might have used for 30-40 years to one he is trying for the first time. One that is quite different in many key respects. Also using a clubhead design (we are not told which SL head he tested) that is likely different from his own mo25

                  I'm not surprised at all that he didn't hit the SL clubs as well.
                  "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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                  • #24
                    Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                    Originally posted by Leftygolfer30 View Post

                    "there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour." "Hundreds", really??? Please name 100, never mind hundreds.
                    Next time you visit a GT, look at the number of different iron set designs that are on the shelf, maybe 50 different sets.....how many of those club heads are in play on the lpga/PGA? Maybe 1/3 , 1/2 of them ? And that is just this year's models. kzg,mwIshon, Golfworks, golfsmith ,TNT, etc etc etc have all designed very good heads over the years but few if any of their many designs were played on , so yes hundred

                    So because 1/2 - 2/3 of the iron set designs sold at GT are not played on the PGA tour does that mean that they are no good? No !
                    Last edited by Weirfan; Mar 16, 2016, 11:03 AM.
                    "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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                    • #25
                      Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                      Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
                      Regarding the testing /experiment and findings of the author and his comparison of his mp25 set to a single length set.

                      I have no idea how old he is but let's say 50.

                      He's comparing the dispertion of a design of set length he might have used for 30-40 years to one he is trying for the first time. One that is quite different in many key respects. Also using a clubhead design (we are not told which SL head he tested) that is likely different from his own mo25

                      I'm not surprised at all that he didn't hit the SL clubs as well.
                      He is in his late twenties.
                      In the Hamilton Golf + CC Embroidered Ping Hoofer

                      Club Champion Callaway AI Smoke 11*, Aldila Ascent 40 A Flex​​
                      Srixon F45 4-wood, 17*, KuroKage 606 S
                      TXG Custom T. Made SIM Max 21* 7-wood, Accra FX 140 2.0 M2
                      TXG Custom Cobra Tech 5-hybrid, KBS TGI 75 R

                      TXG Custom PXG 0211 6-Pw, 1* up, Recoil ESX 460 R
                      PXG 0211 GW, 50*, UST Recoil Dart R
                      TXG Custom Cleveland CBX 54*, Tour Issue DG Spinner 115

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                      • #26
                        Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                        Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
                        Next time you visit a GT, look at the number of different iron set designs that are on the shelf, maybe 50 different sets.....how many of those club heads are in play on the lpga/PGA? Maybe 1/3 , 1/2 of them ? And that is just this year's models. kzg,mwIshon, Golfworks, golfsmith ,TNT, etc etc etc have all designed very good heads over the years but few if any of their many designs were played on , so yes hundred

                        So because 1/2 - 2/3 of the iron set designs sold at GT are not played on the PGA tour does that mean that they are no good? No !
                        The majority of clubs (maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of them?) aren't aimed at pros or expert players. They've got a lot of kid's sets, beginner sets, budget sets, game improvement...
                        Last edited by Ignatius Reilly; Mar 16, 2016, 11:27 AM. Reason: Trying to be less obnoxious....
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                        • #27
                          Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                          Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
                          The majority of clubs (maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of them?) aren't aimed at pros or expert players. They've got a lot of kid's sets, beginner sets, budget sets, game improvement...
                          that and money talks in the pro world.
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                          • #28
                            Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                            Originally posted by sharkhark View Post
                            i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
                            i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
                            (bad back...i am tall etc)
                            so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

                            would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

                            but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

                            i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

                            saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
                            "well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

                            anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
                            Asking a question isn't bashing or saying it's a bad idea. Learn to read and comprehend before you fly off the handle just because I'm the one that asked the question.

                            As stated, SL has been around before and isn't a new idea. Again, IMO, if it was such a good idea then people who's livelihood depends on the golf clubs they use would be using them.

                            And, like rgk5 said, if OEMs thought there was a market for it then I guarantee you'd they'd be developing and selling it.

                            Maybe I'll be proven wrong in 5 years but I doubt it.


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                            • #29
                              Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                              I kinda think SL would work but not single plane... most of us aren't big enough to come up with SS without more wrist bend...

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                              • #30
                                Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

                                If I interpreted Tom Wishon correctly, he is of the opinion that there are three lengths in a single length set.
                                One length for the woods, another for the irons, and still another for the wedges.
                                Putters, the acknowledged ugly duckling, grow to any length.

                                So maybe we should call it a Musketeer set? Four for one and one for all?
                                things change

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