LIFT, CLEAN AND PLACE

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bentley01

There's a time for playing "by the rules" (formal tournaments) and a time to play "friendly" rules. I've played both. The vast majority of golfers don't even know half the rules, let alone follow them. They still enjoy "the game". Who are we to question that? They aren't entering any tournaments. They're just out for fun with their friends/spouse, etc...

If someone is going to go on and on about the sorry state of abiding by the rules, they should be "pure". When was the last time you ever saw a golfer (other than a tour pro) call a penalty on him/herself when the ball moved after address? In 40+ years of golf, I have never, ever seen anyone call a penalty like that on himself (and I've played most of those years with serious golfers). And that's nothing. You should see the other examples of rule-bending I've seen!

No, I think it is fair to say that a handicap is merely the best estimate of one's abilities that we have right now. It is not an exact science, by any means!

I agree with you that a handicap is an approximation of one's abilities, not because the science is inexact, but because golfers do NOT enter ALL their eligible scores in to the handicap system. Since handicaps are used in most competitions at the club level with prizes distributed to those with low net scores, it's obvious that to ensure fair play, ones handicap factor must be based on all scores. Being handicap Chair at my club and having access to the relevant information, I know that 90%+ of handicap factors are bogus, making handicap competitions a joke. Members know that they are to enter scores, but don't. While some above object to the word "cheater," what other word would best describe those who do?

Being involved in the rules, handicaps and being an extensive tournament player, I have called myself for a ball moving after address, for accidentally dropping my ball marker on my ball and moving it and for signing an incorrect scorecard and the like. It's what golfers who respect the game and the rules, do.

I was under the obvious mistaken impression that this "Rules and Etiquette" section of the forum was for those who wanted to learn something about the rules/etiquette and what to do IF this or that happened, from the ones here who are better versed in the rules. Instead, if this thread is typical of the mentality of golfers in your area, it is more about how not to play by the rules, (and then objecting to being called cheaters) about how the rules are archaic and behind the times, and about bashing those who know and play by them. In the same way that most golfers try to improve their golf games and lower their scores, why not apply the same attitude to learning the rules of the game and playing by them?

[golf nut]

I noticed the LPGA doesn't conform to USGA rules they played LCP today.

[Onin3]

I only will partake in that if there are local rules permitting. Or if it is prior to or after the official Season in our case before between Nov 1 and April 14th is off season. I can use a tee on the fairway if I want

[aaagc]

Originally Posted by golf nut

I noticed the LPGA doesn't conform to USGA rules they played LCP today.

I thought this had been sorted out.

LCP is an authorised Local Rule

[aaagc]

Originally Posted by golf nut

The USGA plays the National Open strictly to the Rules of Golf, under which there is no provision for what the USGA calls “Lift, clean and cheat.” The concept of “lift, clean and place” is a PGA Tour confection, to keep scoring low in poor weather conditions.

More nonsense.

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by aaagc

More nonsense.

Would it be possible for you to explain this remark?

[wlorcb]

I think that where we are getting confused is this: LCP can be allowed with a local rule under the USGA RoG.

The USGA simply never allows that local rule to be used in any of the championships that it itself runs.

Kind of like the relief from a plugged ball in closely mowed areas controversy

[aaagc]

Originally Posted by golf nut

Would it be possible for you to explain this remark?

Certainly. You said:

The USGA plays the National Open strictly to the Rules of Golf, under which there is no provision for what the USGA calls “Lift, clean and cheat.”

The Rules of Golf specifically include two Local Rules Appendix I Part B 4b Cleaning Ball and 4c Preferred Lies

The USGA does not call either LR 'lift, clean and cheat'. Certain players may.

The PGA simply does what any Committee is entitled to do. ie use the Rules.

[A Man Called Papa]

For some reason, some seem to think that Preferred Lies (LCP) when properly in place (closely mown areas through the green or something more restrictive) are not part of the RofG. As has been pointed out throughout this thread, they are.

I believe that really good players will always prefer to play the ball down. If the conditions are difficult, the creative player with all the shots is at a distinct advantage, which is taken away by a given tournament or club committee implementing Preferred Lies.

The major tours can appear to be somewhat liberal in their election to use this part of the RofG in order to do everything possible to get an event in on schedule. The USGA (U.S. Open) is not all that concerned about how long it takes to run their event.

It is never an easy decision since many or even most of the players, including those at the top amateur levels, would much prefer to play the ball down. Hence, their derisive remarks which are the source of much of the misunderstanding.

Unfortunately, the corollary is also true at the club level. Every time many members get a fleck of mud on their ball, they are in the ProShop demanding that LC&P be posted.

[bumpnrun]

Originally Posted by aaagc

Certainly. You said:

The USGA plays the National Open strictly to the Rules of Golf, under which there is no provision for what the USGA calls “Lift, clean and cheat.”

The Rules of Golf specifically include two Local Rules Appendix I Part B 4b Cleaning Ball and 4c Preferred Lies

The USGA does not call either LR 'lift, clean and cheat'. Certain players may.

The PGA simply does what any Committee is entitled to do. ie use the Rules.

..but getting back to the OP's question, the determination of whether lift clean and place is allowed is a decision of the course or the committee, not an individual foursome.

[jnj37]

Originally Posted by bumpnrun

..but getting back to the OP's question, the determination of whether lift clean and place is allowed is a decision of the course or the committee, not an individual foursome.

As the OP, I have to ask this question, bumpnrun: Firstly, I agree with your interpretation somewhat, BUT, how many times have you played a public course (in non-tournament play)when the conditions were swamp-like, basically a mud bowl, and found any posting in the pro shop that indicated LCP was in effect, or not in effect? So, if the club is ignoring the condition of the course, and there obviously wouldn't be any chairman during regular play, what do you do? Play it down and have a miserable and frustrating day? LCP and have a slightly less miserable day, but somewhere in the back of your mind worry about breaking a rule? Or, revert to the basic fact that, in this instance, this is a GAME, meant for enjoyment and sharing friendship? Tis a puzzlement.

[bumpnrun]

Originally Posted by jnj37

As the OP, I have to ask this question, bumpnrun: Firstly, I agree with your interpretation somewhat, BUT, how many times have you played a public course (in non-tournament play)when the conditions were swamp-like, basically a mud bowl, and found any posting in the pro shop that indicated LCP was in effect, or not in effect? So, if the club is ignoring the condition of the course, and there obviously wouldn't be any chairman during regular play, what do you do? Play it down and have a miserable and frustrating day? LCP and have a slightly less miserable day, but somewhere in the back of your mind worry about breaking a rule? Or, revert to the basic fact that, in this instance, this is a GAME, meant for enjoyment and sharing friendship? Tis a puzzlement.

As I've said before, it all turns on whether or not you are serious enough to carry an official handicap. I'm sure you would agree that it is not very fun to hit out of old divots in July, but that's the rub of the green.

I have no issue whatsoever with anybody enjoying themselves on the golf course - I've been known to say that the round doesn't start until you're happy with your first drive (whether that takes one or five tries).

Another stupid rule imo? The fact that unless the course or committee has said otherwise, the use of a gps is not allowed.

And from the end of October until April 15, you can have a mulligan on every hole, and we can treat woods and lost balls like lateral water hazards.

For the rest of the year, if the type of golf you play doesn't require you to keep a handicap, and everyone you play with agrees, then fill yer boots and have at er.

You also make a valid point about public courses not taking responsibility. How much would it take for them to post something on a bulletin board?

That is another place where public players are underserved and are missing out on some of the benefits of a membership. And that's another one of the reasons I want to start up a Player's Association at Osprey.

[jnj37]

Yes, I'm serious enough to carry an official handicap - I have for fifty years. The fact that it's gone from a six to presently about a ten/eleven frustrates the **** out of me. But so does looking in the bathroom mirror every morning. (Who the heck is that guy?) The only time I can remember playing LCP was in a club tournament in California, never since. But, this time of year, with some of the conditions we face, it sometimes is a tough call. If a Player's Association at Osprey comes together- count me in. My favorite course in Canada....but only the Heathlands.

jnj37

[bumpnrun]

Originally Posted by jnj37

Yes, I'm serious enough to carry an official handicap - I have for fifty years. The fact that it's gone from a six to presently about a ten/eleven frustrates the **** out of me. But so does looking in the bathroom mirror every morning. (Who the heck is that guy?) The only time I can remember playing LCP was in a club tournament in California, never since. But, this time of year, with some of the conditions we face, it sometimes is a tough call. If a Player's Association at Osprey comes together- count me in. My favorite course in Canada....but only the Heathlands.

jnj37

Yep, and I don't give it a second thought if playing in a casual round in November.

And we've had a couple of mini-tourneys already up there, and it may just get off the ground. I'll put you on the mailing list. And Heathlands is my favourite as well.