CGTF vs. CPGA

[Golftime]

Originally Posted by dekker

I hope those who read this and are trying to make the right choice as to what camp will satisfy their need won't be discouraged by the disparity of consensus.

The only thing that matters is that you find someone who communicates the lessons in the clearest most effective way for your learning style. Whether that be through imagery,concise hands on instruction or simple demonstration if you are visually inclined.

Well said.

[4ems]

Originally Posted by dekker

I hope those who read this and are trying to make the right choice as to what camp will satisfy their need won't be discouraged by the disparity of consensus.

The only thing that matters is that you find someone who communicates the lessons in the clearest most effective way for your learning style. Whether that be through imagery,concise hands on instruction or simple demonstration if you are visually inclined.

I second that.

[JSGolf]

I should apologize as I really do not want to bash or demean anyone and their choices. I have had nothing but negative experiences with the cgtf, from one member showing up at the club I worked as a youth and demanding his fees be comped. Now our head pro was not at the club and I had to ask this member of the cgtf to please leave, being 19 at the time and not that big it was not a pleasant experience. Another was a range last year where I was trying to help my gf learn the game and had a cgtf wander over and tell her that I had no idea what I was speaking about and for a fee he would show her the game. Not positive to say the least.

[racmbs]

So JSGolf....let's here about you now.

Credentials please.....and we'll be the judge as to whether or not you are qualified to even comment (excuse me, BASH) the CGTF any further.

All you've been blowing in this thread is a ton of hot air.....

[Lefty17]

In this agruement...I have friends that are both CPGA and CGTF...

You will find bad experiences with both and good experiences with both.

My course doesn't have either but a sister course has a CGTF....the guy charges through the roof and the times I've talk to him, he's shown he doesn't under stand the swing like others do. I cringe when I see him giving lessons.

On the other hand a friend of mine knows the swing inside out and nows alot probably too much about the game...

The CPGA's I know for the most part are on the good side but I know a couple that are _________.

I comes down to the knowledge that the teacher has. Good or bad experiences happen.

CGTF are a little quicker way to obtain your teaching certificate but you learn alot in a week. The CPGA teaches you the in's and out's of how to run the business side golf along with teaching.

[Golftime]

Originally Posted by JSGolf

I should apologize as I really do not want to bash or demean anyone and their choices. I have had nothing but negative experiences with the cgtf, from one member showing up at the club I worked as a youth and demanding his fees be comped. Now our head pro was not at the club and I had to ask this member of the cgtf to please leave, being 19 at the time and not that big it was not a pleasant experience. Another was a range last year where I was trying to help my gf learn the game and had a cgtf wander over and tell her that I had no idea what I was speaking about and for a fee he would show her the game. Not positive to say the least.

Sorry to hear that. Those two individuals are clearing not following the CGTF code of ethics.

[setter02]

Originally Posted by JSGolf

Another was a range last year where I was trying to help my gf learn the game and had a cgtf wander over and tell her that I had no idea what I was speaking about and for a fee he would show her the game. Not positive to say the least.

That guys has balls. Either just plain ignorant or desperate for business to pull that. Personally I would have then challenged him to a game

[goshawk]

Originally Posted by Golftime

Sorry to hear that. Those two individuals are clearing not following the CGTF code of ethics.

You got that right! I would have loved to be there to get their names and let Bob Bryant know what they are doing.

[tourdeep]

Originally Posted by Lefty17

On the other hand a friend of mine knows the swing inside out and nows alot probably too much about the game...

That was sweet Lefty thanks. I'm glad I have that in writing.

[tourdeep]

Originally Posted by racmbs

So JSGolf....let's here about you now.

Credentials please.....and we'll be the judge as to whether or not you are qualified to even comment (excuse me, BASH) the CGTF any further.

All you've been blowing in this thread is a ton of hot air.....

I'll second that!

[JSGolf]

Not sure of the relevance but what would you like to know about my credentials? Like where I have played? hcp? Tournament results?

[NickStarchuk]

As a very proud CPGA member, I think the debate might be comparing apples to oranges. The CPGA's program to develop Canadian golf professional is fantastic and it continues to grow and improve. The educators and facilitators are constantly keeping up with the trends in the golf business to ensure that all areas of the golf business are covered: from teaching to club operations. I'll stick to the instructional component for this.

The CPGA has given me a great platform to learn and research the ways that I want to teach my players and showed me that regardless of what you teach, you are still teaching people, so the program has a strong focus on how people learn and how to properly organize what you want to teach. I have no information to give on the CGTF as far as their educational curriculum, however, if I find that this organization is teaching something cutting edge that I could not find through my own research and learning, I would be a certified CGTF instructor next week. This thread will make me find out what they are all about.

As far as golf teachers go, I have learned from world wide PGA members, CGTF and USGTF members, and great players with no affiliation to either group. My current mentor has no affiliation with any professional golf organization and yet has numerous tour players and has developed some of the worlds best junior golfers for over 15 years. I have learned more about the science in golf from 'regular-joes' who have an intense passion to find out WHY things happen, and through alot of detailed discussion, I have increased my knowledge of why things happen the way they do... and from there, I figure out a way to correct my players. So when it comes to teaching somebody how to improve their golf swing, does a certification really matter? I could put up 5 websites that if a person was to spend the next 4 months reading, you would be Very knowledgeable in the how's and why's of the golf swing.

So, at the end of the day, a great golf instructor has 3 things:

1. the ability to create a good rapport with a player and communicate effectively
2. an understanding of ball flight, and the abstract thinking to work backwards from here to find the cause to the affect (slice, hook, pull, fat, thin, etc)
3. a passion to continue to learn about the many different ways to get the ball to fly to a selected target

The CPGA has helped me with #3 and the first two I continue to learn on my own.

[northernpro]

Originally Posted by NickStarchuk

As a very proud CPGA member, I think the debate might be comparing apples to oranges. The CPGA's program to develop Canadian golf professional is fantastic and it continues to grow and improve. The educators and facilitators are constantly keeping up with the trends in the golf business to ensure that all areas of the golf business are covered: from teaching to club operations. I'll stick to the instructional component for this.

The CPGA has given me a great platform to learn and research the ways that I want to teach my players and showed me that regardless of what you teach, you are still teaching people, so the program has a strong focus on how people learn and how to properly organize what you want to teach. I have no information to give on the CGTF as far as their educational curriculum, however, if I find that this organization is teaching something cutting edge that I could not find through my own research and learning, I would be a certified CGTF instructor next week. This thread will make me find out what they are all about.

As far as golf teachers go, I have learned from world wide PGA members, CGTF and USGTF members, and great players with no affiliation to either group. My current mentor has no affiliation with any professional golf organization and yet has numerous tour players and has developed some of the worlds best junior golfers for over 15 years. I have learned more about the science in golf from 'regular-joes' who have an intense passion to find out WHY things happen, and through alot of detailed discussion, I have increased my knowledge of why things happen the way they do... and from there, I figure out a way to correct my players. So when it comes to teaching somebody how to improve their golf swing, does a certification really matter? I could put up 5 websites that if a person was to spend the next 4 months reading, you would be Very knowledgeable in the how's and why's of the golf swing.

So, at the end of the day, a great golf instructor has 3 things:

1. the ability to create a good rapport with a player and communicate effectively
2. an understanding of ball flight, and the abstract thinking to work backwards from here to find the cause to the affect (slice, hook, pull, fat, thin, etc)
3. a passion to continue to learn about the many different ways to get the ball to fly to a selected target

The CPGA has helped me with #3 and the first two I continue to learn on my own.

Nick..I agree with your summation..I will not judge
a teacher by his affiliation but judge his quality by results..JMO

[HLgolf]

Nick and Northernpro,

Thank you very much for your opinion and the other guy who started as CGTF and then continued with CPGA.
As most of you said already, at this time of my career, going through CPGA program is just not an option unless I win 6/49
And CGTF program seems to fit right in to fill the gap for people who are still passionate about the game and teaching but not really interested in the rest of golf business, including becoming a head pro of a golf course.
I also found out that, as an example, that Sandra Post golf academy also has CGTF instructor providing lessons (not to mention other golf courses listing their instructors and some of them are CGTF ceritified).

At the end of the day, CGTF or CPGA, still a piece of paper (yes, CPGA has a better visibility for sure). What matters is how good the person is in teach.

[WINTHORPE]

Hey Gentlemen,

I am not a golf expert like some of you guys, but I do come from an educated backround in learning styles/patterns and have had a most recent personal experience that can shed light on this subject. Being a high handicapper and needing to improve my much needed confidence for my corporate golf outings, I went on a major search for a golf instructor.

Reading some of the posts, I would have to agree with Nick and Marcus... that is doesn't matter if your Cpga or Cgtf... there are great instructors in both affiiations I am sure. Its really all about the individual and where the Knowledge base came from.

I actually started my search here on TGN about a month ago and asked all you guys for your guidance. Many instructor names were given to me and I took it upon myself to research these individuals looking for there backround and testimonials or anythign of that nature. I also called the local golf magazines and asked there opinions. After calling a few of these guys and even interviewing a few, I decided on a great individual.

My instructor has taken it upon himself to go travel the world and learn and spend time with the best instructors. His knowledge base, backround, and reputation were excellent. We have been together a month now and I have learned so much and have referred him to many colleauges.

So basically I am saying.. I could care less if he was cpga or cgtf.. its nice he happens to be certified by the CPGA but i didnt care...He has learned from guys I would myself would want to learn from and he is only 15 min from my house!!

You can basically be an average guy who spends countless hours reading books and analyzing golf swings on youtube.. and you would probably know more then the average cpga or cgtf instuctor.... there are diamond in the rough out there ...

so do your research gentlemen,,, I did! and if paid off.....

cheers,

JP

[20Yr Golfer]

Boy Winthorpe, you must be one of those guys who reads the labels of every jar in the supermarket and it takes you 3 hours to do groceries! HAHAHAHA. That is great news. I would love to possibly find an instructor or someplace close to my place, ( Erin Mills and Burnhamthorpe)

Anyway I hope that your instructor can communicate and build rapport with many a person, cuz like you said it doesn't really matter about the certification if they have done their homework like you have!

Good luck

FORE

[torresj]

I would like to know if anyone out there has gone through the program who can talk a bit about the level of difficulty of the written rules test. Are the questions basic or advance? How many questions? Did you find the test difficult? any help on the type of questions asked etc.

Any light that could be shed on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks!!!

[Golftime]

Originally Posted by torresj

I would like to know if anyone out there has gone through the program who can talk a bit about the level of difficulty of the written rules test. Are the questions basic or advance? How many questions? Did you find the test difficult? any help on the type of questions asked etc.

Any light that could be shed on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks!!!

Which organization's test are you referring to?

[torresj]

Ops! Sorry for the confusion - CGTF certification written rules test.

Thanks!!!

[hogannut]

I took my certificate in 1997, so have a vague memory of the test. Couldn't have been to tough....I passed!!

You can obviously read the previous pages for peoples overall thoughts, but I felt I got my money's worth from the course. What I like about the CGTF is they don't give you any false promises, they pretty much say from day 1 that this course gives you a starting point, and from there it is up to the individual on how serious they want to take it.

[Golftime]

Originally Posted by torresj

Ops! Sorry for the confusion - CGTF certification written rules test.

Thanks!!!

As I recall there were about 40 questions. Some questions were easy and some were difficult. Use of a rule book was allowed and even encouraged. Part of the exercise I think was to make sure that you could find information when you needed it. A lot of the questions had been covered in the rules session as well so things should have been fresh in our minds.
If you have a basic understanding of the rules and paid attention then it wasn't too onerous.
The Playing ability test and the teaching test were far more difficult. It is one thing to have an understanding of fundamentals but explaining to an experienced teacher how you would deal with certain problems is quite another challenge.

[101623]

Originally Posted by hogannut

Let's talk about the inaccuracies of this post......

I worked at a golf course in 1994 where the CPGA head pro had moved to Canada and had to take the entire 5 year program again after being a class A pro in Scotland.

The reality of the CPGA program is their members are taught all aspects of the golf business, with teaching being a part of the overall curriculum. By no means am I saying the CGTF program on its own will produce the next Butch Harmom, but to say the CPGA program is a 5 year program about how to teach is also not correct.

If I chose I could pay my back dues and be an up to date CGTF instructor again, I just don't want to teach anymore.

There are MANY high quality teachers with no affiliation to either sanction, and are better than lots of CGTF and/or CPGA.

Also the majority of CPGA guys who do most of the teaching at any given golf are NOT class A pro's, they are apprentices going through the program, and many of them can't break 80. VERY FEW class A pro's are the main teacher at the particular golf course as they are to busy running their businesses.

As for CPGA guys teaching playing pro's I will say that there is a better than 50/50 chance those guys have been teaching those players who are now pro since they were kids probably playing out of their club.

I don't know for sure, but what are the credentials for the top teachers in the world like Butch, Haney for example. Are they USGA club pro's? I don't think so!

First off the pro you speak of was from Scotland and I stated as a CPGA Class A Pro you now do not have to go through the whole course coming from Canada to another country. Maybe back in 94 you may have had to do so but not now. Trust me I know many fellow pros who work in China and Europe.

Also all the top Pro's such as Haney and Harmon are fellow PGA members, in case you didn't know CPGA is the Canadian division of the PGA.

One more thing, no one said the CPGA requires 5 years education on how to teach. Were the hell did you get that from.