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Old Feb 15, 2012, 10:29 AM   #1
kracker
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Default Pace of Play? (tournament)

Scenario, playing in a Club Championship 3some, day 2 or 3 two players playing at normal pace if not faster than normal (neither playing great but on pace) while 1 is playing really well,in contention but playing at a Ben Crane pace, terribly slow. Other two aren't complaining, to focused on their shite play to worry about what buddy is doing but they both recognize the pace is painfully slow and can sense frustration from the groups behind.

Situation. Marshall pulls up and talks to/1st pace of play warning to 1 of 2 players playing at the proper/normal pace (doing all the waiting). The response to marshal, we are not the problem golfers, just happen to be in a group with tournament leader who is playing painfully slow.

Question, is it the responsibility of the others in the group to be keep buddy on pace, or is it the responsibility of the marshal to deal with the player causing the pace of play issue?

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Old Feb 15, 2012, 10:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

I don't know about the local rules in your event, but on the PGA tour, they don't care who the slow golfer in the group is, the entire group gets penalized.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 12:39 PM   #3
A Man Called Papa
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

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Originally Posted by kracker View Post
Scenario, playing in a CC 3some, day 2 or 3 two players playing at normal pace if not faster than normal (neither playing great but on pace) while 1 is playing really well,in contention but playing at a Ben Crane pace, terribly slow. Other two aren't complaining, to focused on their shite play to worry about what buddy is doing but they both recognize the pace is painfully slow and can sense frustration from the groups behind.

Situation. Marshall pulls up and talks to/1st pace of play warning to 1 of 2 players playing at the proper/normal pace (doing all the waiting). The response to marshal, we are not the problem golfers, just happen to be in a group with tournament leader who is playing painfully slow.

Question, is it the responsibility of the others in the group to be keep buddy on pace, or is it the responsibility of the marshal to deal with the player causing the pace of play issue?
I don't recognize your reference to a "CC 3some".

If you are playing in a GAO or RCGA event, PofP will be taken very seriously. The first thing to get clear is that the people controlling the event are not Marshalls but rather Rules or Timing Officials. Referring to them as Marshalls is not likely to win you any points.

Generally, when a group starts to get into trouble, the Head Rules Official or Timing Official will start a monitoring process into action. Usually, they will ask one of the roving RO's to keep an eye on a group to provide information on what the problem is. In just about all cases, by the time a group reaches the scoring table the person in charge already knows who and what the problem is. Before any penalties are assesed, the players are also provided an opportunity to explain. It is very common that only one or two players in a group are penalized. Remember, that in GAO events, warnings are not issued during the round. But, as I have mentioned before, if an Official is paying special attent to your group, you might want to pick up your pace.

To answer your direct question, as a member of the group you do bear some responsibility for making an effort to keeping things moving. However, it happens that you can get caught playing with a particularly "deliberate" player. Should this happen to you, you should call this to the attention of one of the roving RO's as soon as you get a chance. I have even seen an individual in a group in contention in a provincial championship ask for and be granted a RO to do nothing else but stay on top of them. Often a group's pace can be picked up by having someone handy to sort out any trouble they get into.

I don't really know, but I find the comment about the PGA Tour to be unlikely. Certainly, in properly administered events around here every effort is made to ensure that penalties are only assigned to the offending individuals.

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Old Feb 15, 2012, 01:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

The pro tours will monitor groups. Individual players are the ones put on the clock. Their strokes will be timed and after warnings the player will be penalised, not the group
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 01:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

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I don't know about the local rules in your event, but on the PGA tour, they don't care who the slow golfer in the group is, the entire group gets penalized.
The highlighted part above is simply not true. On the PGA Tour, if the group is out of position, as defined by the Tour's rules, the group is notified that they are "on the clock" and each player in the group may be timed (how long it takes for them to make the stroke). If a player has a "bad" time (exceeded the permitted limit for a stroke), it is noted. If the group gets back into position, timing stops. After sufficient "bad" times in the same round, the offending player is penalized.
Suffice it to say, there are not many "bad" times noted since the players speed up their routine and pace to get back into position.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 01:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

In any GAO event that I have played in you have a set Tee Time and along with that a time sheet for each hole provided. For example, if U tee off at 12:00 noon and it is calculated that your 3 some should be finished the first hole in say 13 mins then the time sheet reflects 12:13. If you finish the hole at 12:15 you already know that U are 2 mins behind and the whole groups responsibility is to catch up.

As mentioned there are roving officials and believe me they know if you are behind or ahead and they know your situation ( lost balls etc ) and allow for that.

There is a specific rule in the rules book for this and I do not have access to it at the moment, but I think that the golfer who is causing the problem can be assessed the penalty and not necessarily the whole group.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 02:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

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In any GAO event that I have played in you have a set Tee Time and along with that a time sheet for each hole provided. For example, if U tee off at 12:00 noon and it is calculated that your 3 some should be finished the first hole in say 13 mins then the time sheet reflects 12:13. If you finish the hole at 12:15 you already know that U are 2 mins behind and the whole groups responsibility is to catch up.

As mentioned there are roving officials and believe me they know if you are behind or ahead and they know your situation ( lost balls etc ) and allow for that.

There is a specific rule in the rules book for this and I do not have access to it at the moment, but I think that the golfer who is causing the problem can be assessed the penalty and not necessarily the whole group.
You make a couple of good points. Effective and fair PofP can only be applied if there are precise guidelines available to the players as to how the PofP is being measured. There are several variations on the theme including overall time (GAO), time for swing (old GAO and it would appear PGA Tour), and combinations of both. Having someone just riding around handing out warnings and penalties would seem to be a bag of snakes to me.

The Rule you are referring to is (6-7) which deals with Undue Delay; Slow Play. It provides the authority under Note 2: for the Committee to set out PofP Guidelines as a Condition of Competition. Reference to this provision is included on the GAO HardCard and the specific guidelines for each event are available at Registration.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 02:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

Personally, The GAO is full of guys that are there to go out of their way to get players on Pace of Play or any other rules infractions or they are "looking for lost golf balls".
I have had two occasions that I had to run to get back into position - no fun.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:05 PM   #9
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Personally, The GAO is full of guys that are there to go out of their way to get players on Pace of Play or any other rules infractions or they are "looking for lost golf balls".
I have had two occasions that I had to run to get back into position - no fun.
As a GAO and Golf Canada rules official who puts in about 60 unpaid volunteer hours of work in a single tournament, I take great exception to your comments. You very clearly have no appreciation for the effort involved in becoming and acting as a rules official. You equally clearly have no basis for knowing what type of people the GAO is "full of". On the other hand, it is quite clear what you are full of.

If you had to run to get back into position, you needed to have a better understanding of the group pace of play policy before you teed up and acted accordingly.

All of the rules officials that I know will willingly help any individual understand the policy and how to better play within it, providing they don't start off by spouting abuse and nonsense.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

People, myself included, are clearly suffering from golf withdrawal.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: Pace of Play? (tournament)

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As a GAO and Golf Canada rules official who puts in about 60 unpaid volunteer hours of work in a single tournament, I take great exception to your comments. You very clearly have no appreciation for the effort involved in becoming and acting as a rules official. You equally clearly have no basis for knowing what type of people the GAO is "full of". On the other hand, it is quite clear what you are full of.

If you had to run to get back into position, you needed to have a better understanding of the group pace of play policy before you teed up and acted accordingly.

All of the rules officials that I know will willingly help any individual understand the policy and how to better play within it, providing they don't start off by spouting abuse and nonsense.
Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

"Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

I quote the GAO mission statement - "The Golf Association of Ontario is the Provincial Sport Organization for golf. We share a passion for golf, preserve the past, build the future, and champion golf’s best interests for everyone who enjoys the sport." ( Except for members of non-member clubs!!!!)

Paragraph 2- Actually, all we needed to do was talk the guy that was 13 over par after nine and dragging our time so badly into picking up. He admitted that he had entered with a dubious handicap. Guess it is my job to make sure his handicap was valid.

Paragraph 3 = Actually the fellow who was the starter for years (passed away last year I believe) was a very nice man so I will apologize to him and any that can match him as he was anything but a stuff shirt in as silly hat.
Would like to say that of all, but I don't want to end off spouting abuse and nonsense either!!
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:51 PM   #12
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[QUOTE=drawbias;899966]Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

"Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

The very definition of a public player is one who is not a member of a club. Once he joins a club, he loses his status as a public player - as did Dave Bunker last year when he joined Brampton.

Add yes, if you want to play in a Golf Association of Ontario tournament, you have to be a member in one category or another, hence the term association.

The fellow that you refer to joined a non-member club. His beef really ought to be with the club that doesn't believe in paying membership dues - I'll guarantee that they still use their course rating even though they aren't paying to do so.

Anyway, my rant is over, as I see is yours, so onwards and upwards.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Personally, The GAO is full of guys that are there to go out of their way to get players on Pace of Play or any other rules infractions or they are "looking for lost golf balls".
I have had two occasions that I had to run to get back into position - no fun.
Given what has been said above, and understanding the way the system works, I would be interested in what the situation(s) were that made it necessary for you to run?

Recognizing that it takes time to do things by the letter of the Rules, you will find that the GAO TimePar for a course is more generous than the member expected time at most courses. For instance, the Member Guideline for my course is 4:15, while the GAO TimePar for Qualifiers held there each year is 4:43.

A quick comment about PofP. Almost always, whether it is in a Championship event or just at your home course, the clamour for PofP comes from the other players.
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Old Feb 15, 2012, 07:25 PM   #14
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Given what has been said above, and understanding the way the system works, I would be interested in what the situation(s) were that made it necessary for you to run?

Recognizing that it takes time to do things by the letter of the Rules, you will find that the GAO TimePar for a course is more generous than the member expected time at most courses. For instance, the Member Guideline for my course is 4:15, while the GAO TimePar for Qualifiers held there each year is 4:43.

A quick comment about PofP. Almost always, whether it is in a Championship event or just at your home course, the clamour for PofP comes from the other players.
That is the truth!
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 05:35 PM   #15
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After sufficient "bad" times in the same round, the offending player is penalized. (PGA Tour)
When was the last time a PGA Tour player was actually penalized? Are they not just fined after an accumulation of a number of bad times, and for amounts that are never made public?

If they were penalized actual strokes, ($$$$) pace of play problems on Tour would disappear, and in time, that example would likely help reduce our playing times, as well.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 10:14 AM   #16
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[QUOTE=JGT4;899984]
Quote:
Originally Posted by drawbias View Post
Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

"Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

The very definition of a public player is one who is not a member of a club. Once he joins a club, he loses his status as a public player - as did Dave Bunker last year when he joined Brampton.

Add yes, if you want to play in a Golf Association of Ontario tournament, you have to be a member in one category or another, hence the term association.

The fellow that you refer to joined a non-member club. His beef really ought to be with the club that doesn't believe in paying membership dues - I'll guarantee that they still use their course rating even though they aren't paying to do so.

Anyway, my rant is over, as I see is yours, so onwards and upwards.
Asked my buddy about your comment - he did give the course owner the gears and the guy told him he paid into the association for years - 2 to 3 grand a year. Saw a course rater once in 5 yrs - guy spent 2 hours doing the rating. Got the use of the hdcp system, which he replaced with a $25 software package.
The course rating is still listed on the scorecard - he had a ton printed up and his comment was "for what I paid to them , I won't lose any sleep over continuing to use it".

He said Dave Bunker played in the Better ball, Mid Am and Am - he had no opportunity to do that as a 'member of a non-member club" . They revoked his Public player status but never refunded the money.

End of rant - just wanted to be sure all the facts are on the table.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:19 AM   #17
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[QUOTE=drawbias;900802]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGT4 View Post

Asked my buddy about your comment - he did give the course owner the gears and the guy told him he paid into the association for years - 2 to 3 grand a year. Saw a course rater once in 5 yrs - guy spent 2 hours doing the rating. Got the use of the hdcp system, which he replaced with a $25 software package.
The course rating is still listed on the scorecard - he had a ton printed up and his comment was "for what I paid to them , I won't lose any sleep over continuing to use it".

He said Dave Bunker played in the Better ball, Mid Am and Am - he had no opportunity to do that as a 'member of a non-member club" . They revoked his Public player status but never refunded the money.

End of rant - just wanted to be sure all the facts are on the table.
We have probably gone a way further along this line of discussion than we should have in this forum.

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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:44 AM   #18
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[QUOTE=A Man Called Papa;900831]
Quote:
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First of all, we have probably gone a way further along this line of discussion than we should have in this forum.

You seem to have missed the point. An unaffiliated player can sign up with the GAO as a Public Player. However, a Member of a non-affiliated course cannot. Whether or not you agree with this policy, it is the way things are.

You also appear to have a misunderstanding as to whose money is paid to the GAO.

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said: "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

Excerpt from a online definition of a fact;

1. Something believed to be true or real

2. A thing that has been done, especially a crime.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:02 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=JGT4;899984]
Quote:
Originally Posted by drawbias View Post
Paragraph 1-Yes, perhaps too rough on these guys but my impression is what it is.
I will counter with the following quote from Larry Longo of the GAO as to a player that was a paid Public player and then joined a non-member club:

"Because you are a member of a non-member club, you cannot participate in any events,"

The very definition of a public player is one who is not a member of a club. Once he joins a club, he loses his status as a public player - as did Dave Bunker last year when he joined Brampton.


Add yes, if you want to play in a Golf Association of Ontario tournament, you have to be a member in one category or another, hence the term association.

The fellow that you refer to joined a non-member club. His beef really ought to be with the club that doesn't believe in paying membership dues - I'll guarantee that they still use their course rating even though they aren't paying to do so.

Anyway, my rant is over, as I see is yours, so onwards and upwards.
I have no dog in this fight, but I'd like clarification on the bolded bit above. It seems overly restrictive.

IF someone is a member at two clubs, one GAO and one not, I assume they can/are a GAO club member.

IF someone is a member at a non-GAO club, how can they be restricted from being a public member? Especially if they still play some rounds at public courses?

How did that play out for Dave Bunker?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:50 PM   #20
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[QUOTE=Ignatius Reilly;900853]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGT4 View Post

I have no dog in this fight, but I'd like clarification on the bolded bit above. It seems overly restrictive.

IF someone is a member at two clubs, one GAO and one not, I assume they can/are a GAO club member.

IF someone is a member at a non-GAO club, how can they be restricted from being a public member? Especially if they still play some rounds at public courses?

How did that play out for Dave Bunker?
While not getting into opinions of GAO Policies, I'll take a moment to clarify what JGT4 has already set out.

There are two categories of players who can participate in GAO Events. Those who are Members of GAO affiliated courses, and individuals (Public Players) who are not Members of any course. If you choose to be a Member of a course which for whatever reason elects to carry on outside of the RCGA/GAO umbrella, then you cannot be registered with the GAO as a player who meets their definition of a Public Player. Also, if you are a Member of one of their courses, then by their definition, you are no longer a Public Player (Bunker's situation when after playing as a Public Player, he joined Brampton, moving from Public Player to Member of a RCGA/GAO member course.

Above, Larry Longo, Tournament Manager of the GAO is quoted as simply stating the GAO published policy. Having your Members participate in GAO events is one of the features of a club being an RCGA/GAO member. To take the conversation to the next level would require an involved discussion of individual and club's and owner's attitude toward support for the overall structure of the game. Such a discussion in my opinion belongs on a different forum.

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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:56 PM   #21
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It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 04:44 PM   #22
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It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
No. It is not about where you play, it is about where you are, or are not, a Member. Again, if you are a Member of any course, you not allowed to pay a separate fee and register as a GAO Public Player. To play in GAO events, you must either be a member of a RCGA/GAO club or be a Public Player GAO Member. (There are some special policies to deal with players from outside of the GAO jurisdiction such as the Ottawa Region.)

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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:22 PM   #23
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It is possible to be a member of a non GAO club, play public courses and still play in GAO sanctioned events.
Can't you join the GAO by paying a separate fee and register your score at registered courses?
I just went to the GAO website and followed the procedure to join the public player programme. The very first screen has one, and only one question,
on it.

Are you a club member?

If you answer Yes, then this is what you see next.

Can I join the Public Player Program if my club is not a member of the GAO/Golf Canada?
No. The Public Player Program was created for golfers who are not members of Private or Semi-Private Golf Clubs. You cannot gain access to membership or services through this program without relinquishing your membership at your club.







I agree with Papa that if we are going to move into a debate on the merits of this, we should move it to a different board. Although we are kind of low on rules issues at the moment.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:01 PM   #24
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Can I join the Public Player Program if my club is not a member of the GAO/Golf Canada?
No. The Public Player Program was created for golfers who are not members of Private or Semi-Private Golf Clubs. You cannot gain access to membership or services through this program without relinquishing your membership at your club.
Are juniors excepted?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 07:41 PM   #25
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See post #22.
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