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Handicapping Rule Change

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  • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

    So much for the Ryder Cup as most of my rounds are solo or with buddies from work who don't know what a handicap is......
    MEMBER OF THE 2008/2011/2014/2016TGN/OGF RYDER CUP CHAMPS!

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    • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

      Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
      without playing out the hole in match play ,particularly 2 man team play which is what I play most, how is one to establish a valid score without playing out the hole to completion. A player can be out of a hole after a tee shot, holes are conceded with out players even reaching the green.
      Conceded putts are not uncommon. Not playing out hole requires counting most likely score. Holes unplayed gets par plus handicap strokes applicable on that hole.

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      • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

        Originally posted by Galted View Post
        Conceded putts are not uncommon. Not playing out hole requires counting most likely score. Holes unplayed gets par plus handicap strokes applicable on that hole.
        some conceded putts can be 30 footers , if my partner is 2 feet away. Do I count 1 , 2 , 3 ?

        Most likely score is interesting, if I hit it OB off the tee on a par5 , hit 3 off the tee, get around the green , say in the green side bunker in 5 and declare myself out of the hole because my partner is on in 3. what is my most likely score 7, 8 , 9 ? I could as easily make up and down for a 7 as I can leave a bunker shot in the bunker and chip again and 2 putt for 9. ( of course depends on the persons cap as to the max they can enter)

        I would think par plus the handicap would be a better solution for all incomplete holes.

        the par plus strokes is understandable IMO
        Last edited by Weirfan; Jan 28, 2016, 08:33 PM.
        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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        • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

          Originally posted by OKHC View Post
          Hi Galted;

          at first glance it does seem like the slope rating is taking wild swings at your course, but:
          slope rating = (113/21) * (bogey rating - course rating);
          so, assuming (somewhat unreasonably, but not crazily) that the course rating stayed at 69.0 at your course,
          a bogey rating (BR) of 90 yields a slope rating (SR) of 115;
          BR 91 yields SR 117;
          BR 92 yields SR 124;
          BR 93 yields SR 130.
          So if the course raters, over the years, vary the BR from 90 to 93, as the trees grow, etc., the SR varies from 115 to 130, and I'll suggest that these swings aren't as wild as you were thinking.
          Thank you. My bad as it seems I fall in the majority that have always assumed slope was a rated difficulty factor to normalize different courses and tees. Actual differences in true course difficulty is ignored rendering the complete handicap system as questionable in my mind.

          My evening reading confirms my thinking that other factors have very little impact with consistent mentions that clearly say that distance is the primary rating determinant and each other factor has very minimal impact. Ironically, technology has rendered driving distance as a useless measure. Where once only the best overall golfers hit the 220 yard carry rating basis, now that is well within the reach of many within all handicap levels. The lack of a reliable difficulty measure in the process defies logic. The current processes are better than none at all, but not by much.

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          • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

            Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
            some conceded putts can be 30 footers , if my partner is 2 feet away. Do I count 1 , 2 , 3 ?

            ** I believe such case should be considered unfinished and most likely prevails (how you would finish in a similar situation more than 50% of the time is how I remember it).

            Most likely score is interesting, if I hit it OB off the tee on a par5 , hit 3 off the tee, get around the green , say in the green side bunker in 5 and declare myself out of the hole because my partner is on in 3. what is my most likely score 7, 8 , 9 ? I could as easily make up and down for a 7 as I can leave a bunker shot in the bunker and chip again and 2 putt for 9. ( of course depends on the persons cap as to the max they can enter)

            **(how you would finish more than 50% of the time is how I remember it but sounds like max per ESC would likely cover this case)

            I would think par plus the handicap would be a better solution for all incomplete holes.
            ** I might agree except that would not encourage people to pick up after maximum ESC as advocated for improving speed of play.

            the par plus strokes is understandable IMO
            Responses within your questions.
            Last edited by Galted; Jan 28, 2016, 08:47 PM.

            Comment


            • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

              Originally posted by Galted View Post
              Thank you. My bad as it seems I fall in the majority that have always assumed slope was a rated difficulty factor to normalize different courses and tees. Actual differences in true course difficulty is ignored rendering the complete handicap system as questionable in my mind.

              My evening reading confirms my thinking that other factors have very little impact with consistent mentions that clearly say that distance is the primary rating determinant and each other factor has very minimal impact. Ironically, technology has rendered driving distance as a useless measure. Where once only the best overall golfers hit the 220 yard carry rating basis, now that is well within the reach of many within all handicap levels. The lack of a reliable difficulty measure in the process defies logic. The current processes are better than none at all, but not by much.
              Course rating is actually based on 10 different factors. The most significant, I would imagine, is distance but it's not the only factor. There's even a psychological factor.

              Originally posted by OKHC View Post
              hi AlfaG:

              the 21 comes from the equation in the Handicap System Manual;
              I think that Dean Knuth, the inventor of the Slope Rating System, would say that 21 is the handicap index of a bogey golfer.

              (Americans have handicap indexes; Canadians have handicap factors but that's a different discussion).
              Thanks. I didn't know that there was a number (index or factor) assigned to bogey golfers other than nominally, rating plus 18 and, I guess any adjustment for slope. The additional three strokes must be based on an average slope (113). While there used to be a difference between factors and indexes (indices?), with ESC made equivalent been USGA and RCGA, they're virtually the same now.

              Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
              without playing out the hole in match play ,particularly 2 man team play which is what I play most, how is one to establish a valid score without playing out the hole to completion. A player can be out of a hole after a tee shot, holes are conceded with out players even reaching the green.
              Here is the information you are looking for (my italics):

              Q: What score do I post for holes that I didn’t play, or didn’t finish?

              A: Under the Handicap System, each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played, or not played under The Rules of Golf.

              When a hole is started but not finished (including conceded strokes), the player must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in a player’s best judgment, the number of strokes that it would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. When recording this score, the number should be preceded by an “X” (ex. X-4).

              When a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under The Rules of Golf, the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to. When recording this score, the number should be preceded by an “X”. For example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated stroke holes. If that player does not play one of those holes, the player must record a score of par plus one.

              Please note: These adjusted hole scores may not exceed the player’s Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) limit (as defined in Section 4-3 of the Golf Canada Handicap Manual, and also explained in the following FAQ).
              Last edited by AlfaGolfer; Jan 29, 2016, 05:38 PM. Reason: Adjusted for correct terminology.

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              • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                Originally posted by AlfaGolfer View Post
                If a competitive golfer, one who plays in net or flighted events, plays, for example 60 rounds a season and declares 40 of those as practice rounds and therefore doesn't enter them in their record, then I would say that is inappropriate and a form of sandbagging.

                Match play rounds must be recorded in one's record.

                Yes, if someone wants to cheat, they will, whether there's another golfer present or not so, why provide an opportunity to avoid peer review through scrutiny of one's scoring record by disallowing rounds played alone?
                The key requirement for posting a score is that you have tried to play to your potential. A number of people that like to compete only play to a different level when something is on the line. The peer review does nothing about this as it is hard to prove and peers tend to be oblivious anyways when nothing is on the line. In fact, it is not uncommon for many of us to score our own games and those are posted. It is ridiculous to distrust those playing alone.

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                • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                  Looks like I am saving money this year and finding a new system to keep my handicap. Any suggestions
                  Driver - Taylormade SIM MAX 9.0 Diamana S
                  3W - Taylormade M4
                  5 wood - Callaway X Hot
                  4 Hybrid - Taylormade R15
                  Irons - Taylormade 2017 P790 5-PW
                  Wedge - 52 Raw Jaws/56 MD 2 tour grind
                  Putter - Scotty Cameron Newport 2

                  Comment


                  • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                    Originally posted by Galted View Post
                    The key requirement for posting a score is that you have tried to play to your potential. A number of people that like to compete only play to a different level when something is on the line. The peer review does nothing about this as it is hard to prove and peers tend to be oblivious anyways when nothing is on the line. In fact, it is not uncommon for many of us to score our own games and those are posted. It is ridiculous to distrust those playing alone.
                    I am agreeing with you on this. It is impossible to get into someone's head and, people react differently to pressure.

                    The system isn't foolproof, by any means, but it does strive to achieve equity across golfers of different abilities.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                      Originally posted by AlfaGolfer View Post
                      I am agreeing with you on this. It is impossible to get into someone's head and, people react differently to pressure.

                      The system isn't foolproof, by any means, but it does strive to achieve equity across golfers of different abilities.
                      When wide open courses with a slope of 132 are far easier to score on than a difficult one with a 116 slope, factors are unfairly decreased doing the exact opposite. The overwhelming weighting of distance over difficulty factors is too academic and just plain wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                        hi again Galted; remember what aaagc said: " ... Slope is not a measure of difficulty per se. It is only an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course between a scratch and bogey golfer. ..."

                        A "wide open course" should be "easier to score on" than a "difficult" course, regardless of the slope rating.

                        Dean Knuth, who invented the slope rating system, is a mathematician, and the system is statistically rigorous. His "Pope of Slope" website has a lot of interesting articles.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                          Now that trusting golfers is out and solo rounds are out, when will the next shoe drop, namely: all rounds must be attested by another Golf Canada member?
                          This isn't a dress rehearsal. Enjoy yourself. There's no do-over.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                            Originally posted by mpare View Post
                            Now that trusting golfers is out and solo rounds are out, when will the next shoe drop, namely: all rounds must be attested by another Golf Canada member?
                            I think a judge and lawyers should be present @ the 18th hole with a Bible and under oath sworn testimony be given as to the validity and honesty of said round.

                            Only then can it go to a jury to decide whether that score may be entered.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                              Originally posted by OKHC View Post
                              hi again Galted; remember what aaagc said: " ... Slope is not a measure of difficulty per se. It is only an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course between a scratch and bogey golfer. ..."

                              A "wide open course" should be "easier to score on" than a "difficult" course, regardless of the slope rating.

                              Dean Knuth, who invented the slope rating system, is a mathematician, and the system is statistically rigorous. His "Pope of Slope" website has a lot of interesting articles.
                              Maybe that is not the intention, but the 132 slope on an easier course does distort handicap index to the detriment of when you return to home course with 116 slope. Conversely, the 116 slope on a tougher course raises handicap for benefit on away courses. Who really cares if a scratch golfer and bogey golfer are treated equitably when those are rare match ups. I certainly have zero interest in competing against a scratch golfer on any basis.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                                Originally posted by Galted View Post
                                Maybe that is not the intention, but the 132 slope on an easier course does distort handicap index to the detriment of when you return to home course with 116 slope. Conversely, the 116 slope on a tougher course raises handicap for benefit on away courses. Who really cares if a scratch golfer and bogey golfer are treated equitably when those are rare match ups. I certainly have zero interest in competing against a scratch golfer on any basis.
                                Well, it is what it currently is, and it's the best we've got. If you have concerns or suggestions for improvement, and it seems that you have, I'm sure that the GAO Handicap Committee would listen.
                                Here's their contact info: https://gao.ca/about-us/office-staff-location/

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