The club face: Open versus Closed

[Killer21]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Been reading and studying the Trackman laws of ballfight this winter and it has re-introduced my brain to allowing the clubface and path to be where they need to be to hit a nice draw..ie: face open and path further from the inside than the face.

Funny I used to do this naturally, as I got older (47), some how hit everything off the toe and felt I needed to close the clubface more too as I was perceiving in my head I was too open at impact as I flipped it a bit too.

As in golf, do the opposite, this winter working with the numbers to re-train my brain actually opening the club and coming nice from the inside and now really starting to groove proper impact. Proper path to face ratio's. Getting some really consistent numbers in the sim - face to path. Just need to remember this in live action and trust.

The mind being the most powerful thing. I really think winter golf in simulators can have some great purpose....I know Nick is working with the numbers as well. Good stuff.

[Divot Tool]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

. . .once the downswing starts, it is TOTALLY UN-NECESSARY, AND ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to manipulate the face, shaft lean, body positions, etc.

IOW, let the auto pilot kick in on downswing (or even on backswing). . .

Just because the downswing is seemingly in 'auto-pilot' mode, it doesn't mean the subconscious mind won't try to correct or compensate for a flaw in the grip, setup, alignment, etc (or a variation of those along with potentially multiple things).

[NickStarchuk]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

... but once the downswing starts, it is TOTALLY UN-NECESSARY, AND ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to manipulate the face, shaft lean, body positions, etc.

I like this as a simple concept but it's not real. I manipulate those things every day with players and the 3D data supports it. We can apply a force and/or torque into the grip until about 3 feet from impact. The best players do it unconsciously but they are still doing it...

[Element]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Nick,

If the club face should not open during the backswing, what should it be doing?

[Playthru]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

I think the idea of rotating the face open can be potentially disastrous. In all fairness, it doesn't exactly help amateur golfers given in his book 5 Lessons, Hogan claimed that he rolled the clubface open on the takeaway as quickly as he could.


The face needs to open I agree. The manner in which it opens and when it opens however, is critical to consistency in the golf swing.

I use Hogan's book quite a bit. Can you tell me what page Hogan advocates opening the clubface on takeaway. Just curious.

[NickStarchuk]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Nick,

If the club face should not open during the backswing, what should it be doing?

I prefer the shaft twists to the left for a RH golfer, which is closing, if we use that term. When the face is closed, the player has the best chance to use his body to his advantage.

[Element]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

I prefer the shaft twists to the left for a RH golfer, which is closing, if we use that term. When the face is closed, the player has the best chance to use his body to his advantage.

Thank you,



That's the feeling I have too...shaft twisting to the left.

What about the downswing?...That's the part I'm confused about.

EDIT. I feel the the shafts should rotate to the right on the downswing. In slomotion it puts my body into perfect positions, but I feel that the weight of the clubhead easily pulls me out of position, if that makes sense.

[Tintin]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

I use Hogan's book quite a bit. Can you tell me what page Hogan advocates opening the clubface on takeaway. Just curious.

Can't recall if it's in the book but look at number 7

http://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/photos-hogan-timeless-tips#7

Pronate To Fade (February, 1956)

After years of struggling with hooking the ball, Hogan discovered a way to cut that dreaded shot out of his game completely by hitting, well, a cut. He did this by pronating his left wrist (turning the palm down) as he took the club back and then cupping it (both part of his famous "secret" he revealed in a Life Magazine article in 1955) at the top. The move got the clubface so open, that no matter how hard he swung coming down, he avoided shutting it too much. The result was a consistent, high, left-to-right ball flight that he relied on to win nine major championships.

[Playthru]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Can't recall if it's in the book but look at number 7

http://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/photos-hogan-timeless-tips#7

Pronate To Fade (February, 1956)

After years of struggling with hooking the ball, Hogan discovered a way to cut that dreaded shot out of his game completely by hitting, well, a cut. He did this by pronating his left wrist (turning the palm down) as he took the club back and then cupping it (both part of his famous "secret" he revealed in a Life Magazine article in 1955) at the top. The move got the clubface so open, that no matter how hard he swung coming down, he avoided shutting it too much. The result was a consistent, high, left-to-right ball flight that he relied on to win nine major championships.

Thanks - I had not seen this.

[cretegolf]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

"To get simple, you must go very deep" - Steve Jobs

Backing up my fellow PGA of Canada brother here, and if I may add a bit of historical (going deep) context to this thread? I should preface by saying that I'm a total nerd/snob for all thing Golf history, that includes equipment, instruction, etc.

Rather than referencing or even looking at the traditional channels of golf instruction, it can be a worthwhile journey to venture off the beaten path. Look for things/teachings that don't make sense :

- the power of Jimmy Bruen & the famed 'Bruen Loop'
- the power & teachings of Abe Mitchell
- the teachings of Mr. X
- Hogan
- Trevino

I'm referencing these because when looking at what they did/taught, they don't APPEAR to make sense. But if you knew what they INTENDED to do, then perhaps what Nick is saying would make much more sense.

Jimmy Bruen was a famous Irishman golfer that was renowned for his power and loop like swing (google or YouTube him).

Bruen didn't open the face taking the club away - he did the exact opposite. He wound his forearms into/towards the ball going back, thereby 'closing' the clubface to such an extreme, that you would think he would have killed all spectators behind him!

If you imagine though, a pencil on the face of the club, perhaps it's a good visual to get what Nick's trying to have you INTEND to do - keep that pencil pointing at the line of flight until you absolutely physically can't anymore - that's what Jimmy Bruen did so beautifully. Perhaps you could consider doing the same thing after impact - so rather than intending to shut the face, you keep it pointing at the line of flight just a bit longer, but you have to engage your body to do that (Trevino intended to do this and he was of course fantastic).

As for Abe Mitchell, it is suspected (SITD forum/channel has lots of videos and mention of Abe's teachings) that Hogan read Abe's books to help him out with this because Hogan perhaps coyly cites 2 Abe ism's in his 5 Lessons book (which is perhaps taken too literally): the 1st was mention of Pronation/Supination. Abe Mitchell mentions these terms in his book 'Down to Scratch' from 1933. He warned that these terms might confuse golfers so he cited them as being correct, but went on not to use them throughout the remainder of the book. The other of course was the hook being the 'terror of the field mice' quote - Abe said that in his book, and what were his 2 books about (Down to Scratch 1933, Length on the Links 1935)?? They were about how to put slice on the ball/anti-hook - Hogan anyone!! That image of Hogan's arms being wound up? Mitchell's main drill was a belt drill where he'd tie up either the trail arm or both arms to teach proper forearm winding, muscle resistance, and use of body. That image in 5 Lessons of the inner legs/feet feeling the sensation/resistance? That's just about all that Abe Mitchell talked about.


How did Abe advocate doing that? Well he wound his muscles (forearms & leg muscles TOWARDS the ball/target line throughout the backswing). A good visual is to think of Tom Brady or a great Baseball pitcher - their forearm position on their throwing hand is where the palm is facing DOWN or as Abe referred to this as 'wound'. Remember that Hogan coyly said to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you think you should? So rather than allowing the clubface to OPEN going back, make it 'CLOSE'. Put another way, have your forearms move COUNTER Clockwise going back (think of how your forearms rotate as you sweep a broom back along the ground).

If I may humbly say, those 2 books did more for me in Ball Striking than 30 years of searching, ball beating, buying equipment, etc. If hitting a 1 or 2 Iron or old Persimmon wood is the acid test of a good golf swing, those teachings were the ONLY thing that allowed me the ability to do that.

Why Mr. X and who the hell is Mr. X??!! He's the only other Golf Instruction source I've come across that talks about winding the forearms. He also echoes Abe Mitchell's talk of resisting with the legs via Ground Pressures - despite Ground Reaction Forces/Force Plates/Ground Pressure being all the modern rage, they've been understood and referenced by the old Masters for generations, but perhaps not explained as well.

Mickey Wright understood this leg/ground pressure implicitly, as did George Knudson, both revered for their ball striking prowess.

Hogan & Trevino I put on the list because their swings were quite unorthodox but they were both considered to be the best ball strikers of all time - remember what Nick said about DJ with his shut face? Trevino did that all day every day!!

I could go on for hours about this stuff and I'm guilty of trolling (is that the right word?), but what Nick's onto is spot on great stuff.

I went out and ordered all of Mr. X's books which are a treasure trove of great golf knowledge (shin post, forearm winding/proper hinge to counter the cantileverage of the club, using the head as a counter weight to the center of mass, must keep plumb line/base of neck still, etc). I learned about him by picking up a Golf Monthly 'Golfing Legends Tips from the Tour' magazine while at an Airport last summer.

I also have Abe Mitchell's 2 books from the 1930's that are exceptional. I think some people over on GolfWrx forum and SITD forum might have uploaded passages of these, but I can't recommend them highly enough for understanding this concept that Nick's talking about.

Cheers, Chris

[cretegolf]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

From what Nick said earlier in the thread:

so what if I told you that almost everything about Open and Closed as you know it was misleading, or wrong, and that just by knowing something that you would hit the ball better tomorrow?

Reminds me of that Karate Kid scene where Sensei's making the kid 'wax on, wax off' to understand the motion of parrying. To understand one thing is to understand everything.

Brings me back to the broom reference, kind of a 'wax on, wax off' thing I guess. But when you know that you already perform that motion doing other activities (sweeping with broom, skipping a rock on water, etc.), you COULD hit the ball better almost immediately!

Chris

[Hope469]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

This thread was a great read. It is truly amazing how many "lost in translation" scenarios were encountered throughout. IMO, I might be wrong or "lost in translation", it is very evident, in any powerful golf swing, the players club face will be "shut" or "cupping" the ball at impact while producing a forward downward strike to the ball.. there are however the "sweepers" who might show a little less "cupping" or forward/downward motion. By allowing the club face to open too much or close too much on the backswing, this would expose parts of the clubhead which are really not supposed to be included thus creating a mishmash of different bad golf shots and would create more difficulty "squaring" the club back to impact position. My only issue, (which was posted) is that the club face doesnt really open or close (unless twisted in the hands), the shoulders just rotate the club around the body with the face square to the shaft position.. sure it might seem like its opening (or closing), and some might create the twisting action with a poor grip or takeaway, or very unique swing, however in general, the face shouldnt close or open at all really, maybe a little at impact with the hands. Also, feeling like the club is shut on the backswing, could in theory limit the shoulder turn for some, which would create an arm and hands swing, thus resulting in less distance and less control. I dont however, feel like Nick was being misleading or hard to understand.. Seemed pretty clear I dunno, JMO

[Tintin]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

What say you?

[Hope469]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Yes shaft angle (position) changes depending on how you take the club away

[Hope469]

Re: The club face: Open versus Closed

Like Dustin Johnson, bend (push) of the angle right away