why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

[WDM1980]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

This thread reminds me of one of GTA courses that I played yesterday.
Dragon's Fire! One of the slowest green this year.

I think it is more likely you had a good day. I have played DF numerous times and greens have always been slow.

Did you play prime-tiime? Wonder if they make them quicker on the weekend and let them grow during the week.

820 on a Saturday, so yeah, prime time.

[vermin40]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

ya, I can see the frustration part. the courses I am referring to are aimed at the better golfer. I guess i find it odd that they put so much effort and $ into the rest of the course but the greens seem to be somewhat neglected so I would hesitate to see it as a $ problem.

The one I played last night is aimed at the average golfer and has a lot of tournaments so I can see that side if it.

Being kept ultra low during hot humid weather makes them more susceptible to disease as well as being stress from the heat. Although the summer has been wet the temperatures have been fine so there should be no particular reason the greens would be shaggy. They get cut every day.

[On_Plane]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Looks like a lot of great info so far. I would echo everything said from a maintenance standpoint. Greens that are cut short on a consistent basis get stressed out. Disease can and will take over during the course of a day, which means your more educated Turf Staff need to monitor the course constantly... so when some staff are going home at 1pm or 3pm, someone needs to know what to look for later in the day, because you could have a huge problem on your hand if you don't recognize a disease until the next morning.

Courses do what they can to keep them fast without cutting, none of which am I big fan of: Rolling, Dragging, Top-dressing, I think courses still do/used to spray a growth inhibitor also.

[Jeffc]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Looks like a lot of great info so far. I would echo everything said from a maintenance standpoint. Greens that are cut short on a consistent basis get stressed out. Disease can and will take over during the course of a day, which means your more educated Turf Staff need to monitor the course constantly... so when some staff are going home at 1pm or 3pm, someone needs to know what to look for later in the day, because you could have a huge problem on your hand if you don't recognize a disease until the next morning.

Courses do what they can to keep them fast without cutting, none of which am I big fan of: Rolling, Dragging, Top-dressing, I think courses still do/used to spray a growth inhibitor also.

I guess the big question is what is the right length? Again I am not looking for blazing fast, just a good speed where I don't have to hammer everything and it doesn't look like a plinko game along the way. That speed is of course relative. I guess I also wonder how some courses will have them rolling nice, while others don't - and all in the same level of course. I suppose some have bigger budgets and are willing to take a bit more risk than others.

[The Troll]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Longer grass is less stressed.

Some people believe that fast greens = slow play.

Cutting everyday costs more in labour than simply rolling the greens or doing nothing.

[rendogski]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

I worked course maintenance for 4 summers. Our greens were quite fast at the peak of the season but it would take countless hours of work to keep them that way.

We would start with a height of cut of .140 inches at the start of the season which would gradually be brought down to .115 inches as the season moved along. We had 4 walking greens mowers. Each staff member would take about 2-2.5 hours to cut them in the morning. We would top dress the greens with a thin layer of sand weekly and seed as needed (bent grass seed is very expensive). Verticutting and Aerating was done about 4 times throughout the season and we would roll them twice a week. Since the greens were cut so short we were constantly hand watering the high spots on the greens as they got baked out often. Every afternoon you could count on 3-4 workers hand watering greens for atleast an hour.

The material and labour costs associated with keeping greens fast and at the same time receptive is a constant and expensive battle.

The same course now uses one person to cut all the greens on a riding mower, they have not been verticut once this year, the course doesn't even own a roller anymore and the Height of Cut is no where near as low as it once was. The greens are still very playable and the course remains busy. There is no doubt they were much better back in the day but at the end of the day its all about the all mighty $$.

[goshawk]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Unfortunately, lots of golfers tend to compare the greens on the course to courses that they've played where the grass has been really shaved down for some big tournament. If the course cut their greens like that on a regular basis, they would be susceptible to disease as some have stated, and the grass would be severely stressed from the heat. Most of the courses that I've played in Canada try to maintain a 8.5-10.5 speed on their greens. This promotes good growth of the grass leaves and the root system, and doesn't require daily rain or watering or excessive chemical additives.

There's also the possibility of comparing the greens here with those down south. Most greens here are bent grass (very thin leaves) or a poa anna hybrid (slightly broader leaves). The greens down south are predominantly Bermuda (much broader leaves and more aggressive roots), which has a lower tolerance to cold but much higher tolerance to heat and drought and can tolerate close cutting much better than bent grass. Bermuda greens can recover from close shaving much easier and faster than bent greens, so a good number of courses keep their greens at 10-12 speed with very little stress.

From what I've learned from speaking with several HGK's, courses that host PGA events have a terrible time keeping their greens healthy for several weeks following the event. Yes, their greens get very firm and can measure 14+ speed, but local courses trying to do that on a regular basis may be replacing greens frequently.

[vermin40]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

I guess the big question is what is the right length? Again I am not looking for blazing fast, just a good speed where I don't have to hammer everything and it doesn't look like a plinko game along the way. That speed is of course relative. I guess I also wonder how some courses will have them rolling nice, while others don't - and all in the same level of course. I suppose some have bigger budgets and are willing to take a bit more risk than others.

No right answer on correct length. A course can let the heights go up during summer by topdressing regularly plus rolling with no negative impact on green speed. Then again topdressing and rolling cost money in material and manpower. Courses are struggling on the revenue side and likely are trying their best to minimize extra maintenance expenditures.

[Jeffc]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Courses are struggling on the revenue side and likely are trying their best to minimize extra maintenance expenditures.

one course we play a lot has consistently excellent conditions and there greens are the best I have played this year in terms of speed, roll and consistency. I'd rate it on par with the two other course I mentioned. They've been getting most of my golfing budget this year. So while i know it costs $ to keep them shorter, it could/should also generate more revenue in the end - at least from my perspective. Of course I am just one golfer, though my regular golfing buddies feel the same way.

[vermin40]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

one course we play a lot has consistently excellent conditions and there greens are the best I have played this year in terms of speed, roll and consistency. I'd rate it on par with the two other course I mentioned. They've been getting most of my golfing budget this year. So while i know it costs $ to keep them shorter, it could/should also generate more revenue in the end - at least from my perspective. Of course I am just one golfer, though my regular golfing buddies feel the same way.

Then the course with the better conditions should be able to continue with more intensive maintenance if more golfers were like you. Hopefully they do.
It bothers me reading about the 2 for 1, 50% off etc then complaints about conditioning. Wish more thought like you.

[bogey5]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

Then the course with the better conditions should be able to continue with more intensive maintenance if more golfers were like you. Hopefully they do.
It bothers me reading about the 2 for 1, 50% off etc then complaints about conditioning. Wish more thought like you.

How many will pay more? I think he may have been suggesting more rounds will go to the better conditioned one even if those rounds are still discount rate.

[The Troll]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

So while i know it costs $ to keep them shorter, it could/should also generate more revenue in the end - at least from my perspective. Of course I am just one golfer, though my regular golfing buddies feel the same way.

A couple of years ago, during that wickedly hot summer we had, a lot of US courses and some Canadian courses lost greens.

The take from the USGA experts were that many US courses engaged in a green speed war. If the course across the street ran 11 then you had to be 11.5 leading them to go to 12 and on and on....

Funny thing was many of these courses did away with aeration in order to avoid missing days when neighbourhood courses were at 100%.

No question, local private clubs have slowed down their greens the last couple of years imo.

[vermin40]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

How many will pay more? I think he may have been suggesting more rounds will go to the better conditioned one even if those rounds are still discount rate.

More rounds equals more wear and tear on the course.
A course doing 40,000 rounds at $20 will look different than a course doing 10,000 at $80.
Green fee revenue is the same but course A is pounded by season end.
If I owned a course not sure which I'd prefer.
Theoretically 40,000 should spend more with beverage cars and in the clubhouse even if they're chasing the low green fee.....or maybe not.
Anybody have insight?

[trunckslammer1]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

In the Osprey thread, I quoted some numbers.
At Osprey, no discount, no coupons, no specials. The course is in the middle of nowhere. They do not rely on the meals to make money as the food is not that great. However, the 3 courses are always in great condition. The greens, although not as fast as some the the private courses are a lot faster then most public courses and are always in pristine conditions. Because they charge such high prices, most of the golfers who play there appreciate the conditions and do make the effort to replace divots and repair ball marks.
For those who are interested, Bob (Head Pro) runs a men's league every Thursday and Sunday starting around 2-3pm. Just show up at the putting green and introduce yourself.

[bogey5]

Re: why don't courses keep their greens shorter?

In the Osprey thread, I quoted some numbers.
At Osprey, no discount, no coupons, no specials. The course is in the middle of nowhere. They do not rely on the meals to make money as the food is not that great. However, the 3 courses are always in great condition. The greens, although not as fast as some the the private courses are a lot faster then most public courses and are always in pristine conditions. Because they charge such high prices, most of the golfers who play there appreciate the conditions and do make the effort to replace divots and repair ball marks.
For those who are interested, Bob (Head Pro) runs a men's league every Thursday and Sunday starting around 2-3pm. Just show up at the putting green and introduce yourself.

Never thought Osprey was typical. Can't figure how they make $$$ so always assumed they just don't care. Full credit to them for continuing to keep the conditions up but wonder how many others could do the same.