Video Review - Decision Change

[Shadow]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

The player is responsible for signing an accurate scorecard.

Lexi either knew or ought to have known she committed the infraction. Without the extra two stroke penalty, a player who knows they have broken a rule might as well pretend they didn't and see if it comes to light.

Precisely why the additional two stroke penalty must remain.

[wlorcb]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Where did I claim to know that?

Did I put that forth as a hypothetical?

Why did you edit the quote in such misleading fashion in an attempt to discredit me? How does that further the discussion. Do you think it does?

Please quote specifically my assertion that I believe she cheated. Accurately, encapsulating the entire context ofmy post.

Please answer.

Why did you conclude that I think she cheated and do you think that is an accurate representation of my post to the other members of this forum?

You're right, I missed the 'hypothetical' word in the previous sentence.

[Benz]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Happens all the time in every other sport. Calls are missed. Life moves on. Sport isn't perfect. I'm OK with it. It's not absurd. It's all sport. Furthermore until every shot is recorded then it is not fair and equitable.

This ^^^^

When video review is used during a team sport (hockey, football, baseball), there is only one game underway and that game stops until a final ruling is made. Golf is different in that there are (usually) many 'games' underway simultaneously, and only a few of them receive the video coverage and subsequent scrutiny regarding potential rules violations. This puts the marquee players (who receive the bulk of the TV coverage) at a clear disadvantage relative to the rest of the field (who receive little or none at all). That is simply unfair.

If there is an issue of uneven levels of officiating, then perhaps more officials are in order. The NHL did this when they added an extra referee in response to problems where calls were simply missed because a single official could not be reasonably expected to see everything on every play (also aided by allowing linesmen to call minor penalties).

[Galted]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

This ^^^^

When video review is used during a team sport (hockey, football, baseball), there is only one game underway and that game stops until a final ruling is made. Golf is different in that there are (usually) many 'games' underway simultaneously, and only a few of them receive the video coverage and subsequent scrutiny regarding potential rules violations. This puts the marquee players (who receive the bulk of the TV coverage) at a clear disadvantage relative to the rest of the field (who receive little or none at all). That is simply unfair.

If there is an issue of uneven levels of officiating, then perhaps more officials are in order. The NHL did this when they added an extra referee in response to problems where calls were simply missed because a single official could not be reasonably expected to see everything on every play (also aided by allowing linesmen to call minor penalties).

I would have to agree that there is a line being drawn between golf integrity of calling on oneself and the current gotcha mentality where the inconsequential cannot be overlooked. Lexi made an awkward angle replacement missing precise spot by no more than the baby fingernail tolerance rulies are taught. And on what essentially is a gimmee length. Why wasn't the caller ignored?

[JGT4]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

I would have to agree that there is a line being drawn between golf integrity of calling on oneself and the current gotcha mentality where the inconsequential cannot be overlooked. Lexi made an awkward angle replacement missing precise spot by no more than the baby fingernail tolerance rulies are taught. And on what essentially is a gimmee length. Why wasn't the caller ignored? Hard not to wonder about a Korean sponsor and a Korean winner!

Just a couple of points on this.

In the video clip I saw of the referee informing Lexi of the facts, she could be clearly heard to say that the ball had been replaced an inch away - so not a baby fingernail. I acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily change your point but we should try to stick to the facts as we know them.

In all my years of officiating at all levels, I have only come across a gotcha mentality in officiating in two individuals, both of who responded well to on the job education.

[Nosechug]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

It's not the job of the officials to protect players from there own carelessness.

Please explain, with specificity, what my experiences marking my ball have to do with Lexi Thompson?

Let's think of it this way - and I am being hypothetical.

Lexi got careless. Realized after she did it that she had moved the ball 1/4-1/2 inch. In a world with no scorecard penalty, she can just say "I'll take my chances that nobody saw it. I've already incurred the penalty, the worst that can happen is they call me on it". I don't like that situation.

In the current world she thinks "I better self assess the penalty because if I don't I could get an extra two". There needs to be an incentive to self assess penalties.

With Specificity, your experiences marking a ball while distracted by outside influences would be completely different from Lexi Thompson's, unless you've played in an LPGA major (which I am assuming you have not). The point being that there are a multitude of things which could lead to a careless marking of the ball which ANY GOLFER would not notice.

As for the extra 2 shot penalty, we are clearly of different beliefs. When she signed her scorecard, she believed it to be correct. When the committee assessed the penalty, and changed the score on that hole, the scorecard she submitted and signed for does not exist anymore. Therefore how is she card she signed incorrect, she has not signed the new card.

You believe it should not matter, and that's ok. I do understand that as golfers we call penalties on ourselves. I am of the belief that clerical errors when recording scores and/or scorecards adjusted for infractions found after the fact should be corrected and do not deserve a 2 stroke penalty.

[Galted]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Just a couple of points on this.

In the video clip I saw of the referee informing Lexi of the facts, she could be clearly heard to say that the ball had been replaced an inch away - so not a baby fingernail. I acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily change your point but we should try to stick to the facts as we know them.

In all my years of officiating at all levels, I have only come across a gotcha mentality in officiating in two individuals, both of who responded well to on the job education.

On Golfworx a self professed nerd did a deep dive and measured it exactly from zoomed video as just less than half an inch. That was my fact basis. And it was sideways microscopically further not closer to the hole. However, that is first I heard that Lexi stated an exaggerated distance which I guess gets the rulies off the hook. Surprised though that their examination would not have been as precise as the Golfworx guy if there is a tolerance norm.

Re gotcha mentality, I am referring to all this video review nonsense rather than leaving it to player and competitors judgement as is the case for everybody not on camera. I do believe most rulies would have remained oblivious to Lexi's carelessness as was her playing partner. The penalty far exceeded the inconsequential error on her part.

I still advocate slackening the precision rules so that the emphasis is more on hitting shots rather than inconsequential placement that is just a gotcha!

[Shadow]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Golf is different in that there are (usually) many 'games' underway simultaneously, and only a few of them receive the video coverage and subsequent scrutiny regarding potential rules violations. This puts the marquee players (who receive the bulk of the TV coverage) at a clear disadvantage relative to the rest of the field (who receive little or none at all). That is simply unfair.

Is your solution, then, to disregard Lexi's obvious two stroke penalty solely because Ashlee Bunch, who was first off at 7:00 am, did not receive video coverage?

[Shadow]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

On Golfworx a self professed nerd did a deep dive and measured it exactly from zoomed video as just less than half an inch. That was my fact basis. And it was sideways microscopically further not closer to the hole. However, that is first I heard that Lexi stated an exaggerated distance which I guess gets the rulies off the hook.

Would you feel the same way if the half inch move was to avoid playing over a spike mark?

[Ignatius Reilly]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Is your solution, then, to disregard Lexi's obvious two stroke penalty solely because Ashlee Bunch, who was first off at 7:00 am, did not receive video coverage?

Yes.

Because we don't have video to examine to find any breaches she (Ashlee) made.

I would be fine with that outcome. Absolutely fine with it. I would prefer it. (just in case that hasn't been abundantly clear to date... ).

I think that by ignoring call-ins, Lexi would have won, and that she was the most legitimate winner.

[Galted]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Would you feel the same way if the half inch move was to avoid playing over a spike mark?

Absolutely, why should someone face obstacles left by competitors? In any case, I have never seen an inconsiderate pro walking as close to the hole as her ball. It was within rulies own tolerance level quoted here, so why was she penalized?

[Shadow]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Absolutely, why should someone face obstacles left by competitors? In any case, I have never seen an inconsiderate pro walking as close to the hole as her ball. It was within rulies own tolerance level quoted here, so why was she penalized?

In this regard, a player will not have to CHEAT to win, in 2019.

[Shadow]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Yes.

Because we don't have video to examine to find any breaches she (Ashlee) made.

I would be fine with that outcome. Absolutely fine with it. I would prefer it. (just in case that hasn't been abundantly clear to date... ).

I think that by ignoring call-ins, Lexi would have won, and that she was the most legitimate winner.

Obviously Lexi would have won had the officials not been permitted to examine the evidence that she broke a rule and became the undeserving winner of the ANA.

That anyone would be OK with Rhu getting screwed of winning this major I find quite disconcerting. I wonder if those of similar mindset would feel the same if it was Rhu (Korean) who had broken the rule, and won, instead of Lexi (America's darling) if call-ins were banned?

Clearly then, some don't care if players have to abide by all the rules. The good thing is that those in charge, do.

[Jeffc]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Obviously Lexi would have won had the officials not been permitted to examine the evidence that she broke a rule and became the undeserving winner of the ANA.

That anyone would be OK with Rhu getting screwed of winning this major I find quite disconcerting. I wonder if those of similar mindset would feel the same if it was Rhu (Korean) who had broken the rule, and won, instead of Lexi (America's darling) if call-ins were banned?

Seriously? You are playing the racist card? I could care less who won. Is it fair if a rule was broken on Friday but not called in since it wasn't telecast or if it was found out Sunday night one had cheated?

[Ignatius Reilly]

Re: Video Review - Decision Change

Obviously Lexi would have won had the officials not been permitted to examine the evidence that she broke a rule and became the undeserving winner of the ANA.

That anyone would be OK with Rhu getting screwed of winning this major I find quite disconcerting. I wonder if those of similar mindset would feel the same if it was Rhu (Korean) who had broken the rule, and won, instead of Lexi (America's darling) if call-ins were banned?

Clearly then, some don't care if players have to abide by all the rules. The good thing is that those in charge, do.

No.

I think that with only 10% (a made up number) of the shots televised, and the majority of those televised being of players in contention, we actually have NO IDEA what other breaches, cheats (no, I don't think there is much cheating at all, and certainly not in this case), or misdemeanors are out there.

We really NEVER have any idea how many rules breaches there are on the course. Given that, I think the "best" solution is to ban call-ins and accept that that is imperfect, but better.

FWIW I find both Lexi and Ryu equally appealing...

I also think Ryu probably feels her win will always sport an asterisk.