Handicap question re local ruiles

[davepratt]

I have never kept a formal handicap but I'm joining Black Diamond this year and intend to establish one. Something concerns me about 2 of their local rules. 1 is treat all fescue as a later hazard and the 2nd is if you lose a ball, all tree lines are also to be treated as lateral hazards.
I understand they are probably trying to speed up play but my concern is that if I observe these local rules, my handicap will be lower than it actually should be. Thoughts please.

[Weirfan]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

I have never kept a formal handicap but I'm joining Black Diamond this year and intend to establish one. Something concerns me about 2 of their local rules. 1 is treat all fescue as a later hazard and the 2nd is if you lose a ball, all tree lines are also to be treated as lateral hazards.
I understand they are probably trying to speed up play but my concern is that if I observe these local rules, my handicap will be lower than it actually should be. Thoughts please.

Dave,

lots of courses have similar rules. Drop areas on the other side of water hazards are another example. Ballantrae also has local rule to treat fescue as a lateral plus they have a drop area on other side of the lake on 4.

You are under no obligation to follow local rules. ( probably want to in events ) When I began seriously tracking my handicap and Ballantrae was my home course I disregarded the local rules and followed the official rules of golf.

[Benz]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

I have never kept a formal handicap but I'm joining Black Diamond this year and intend to establish one. Something concerns me about 2 of their local rules. 1 is treat all fescue as a later hazard and the 2nd is if you lose a ball, all tree lines are also to be treated as lateral hazards.
I understand they are probably trying to speed up play but my concern is that if I observe these local rules, my handicap will be lower than it actually should be. Thoughts please.

One of your options for a lateral hazard is to replay the shot under penalty of one stroke, which would be equivalent to the penalty for a lost ball. However, if you aren't sure that your ball is in an area that is considered a lateral hazard, then you are not allowed to hit a provisional ball.

That said, you should be concerned. Any course that uses general terms like 'fescue' and 'tree lines' to define their local rules is abusing the system and should have their OGA ratings recalculated. There are better ways to speed up play, e.g. improved marshaling. These particular local rules are a joke and simply a veiled way for the members to lower their handicaps, nothing more. Eventually, it will catch up with them.

[Weirfan]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

One of your options for a lateral hazard is to replay the shot under penalty of one stroke, which would be equivalent to the penalty for a lost ball. However, if you aren't sure that your ball is in an area that is considered a lateral hazard, then you are not allowed to hit a provisional ball.

That said, you should be concerned. Any course that uses general terms like 'fescue' and 'tree lines' to define their local rules is abusing the system and should have their OGA ratings recalculated. There are better ways to speed up play, e.g. improved marshaling. These particular local rules are a joke and simply a veiled way for the members to lower their handicaps, nothing more. Eventually, it will catch up with them.

Been a while so can't recall how many blind tee shots there are at BD but should in most cases be able to tell from the tee if a shot goes into the fescue or trees. If he can't then in those rare circumstances he could use the local rule.

He also has the option of playing the ball as it lies out of the defined hazard (fescue and trees) if the lie permits.

These bustardized local rules are almost always implemented to speed up play. Drop areas on other side of water to stop high cappers from hitting multiple balls in the water, trees and fescue as lateral hazards so people don't spend time searching or can't find their ball and have to walk back to re hit the shot from where it was originally struck.

Sometimes it's for safety reasons. The OB stakes on the left at Wyndance on 18 apparently do not meet the ROG criteria for OB. In a PGA event there they were removed . There is a steep slope down to the lower course in the quarry. IIRC ther are no white stakes separating the main course and the par 3 course on the right of 9, but no severe drop off. WD also had red stakes to mark the trees left of the fairway on 6 which have since been removed.

[rulie]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

One of your options for a lateral hazard is to replay the shot under penalty of one stroke, which would be equivalent to the penalty for a lost ball. However, if you aren't sure that your ball is in an area that is considered a lateral hazard, then you are not allowed to hit a provisional ball.

That said, you should be concerned. Any course that uses general terms like 'fescue' and 'tree lines' to define their local rules is abusing the system and should have their OGA ratings recalculated. There are better ways to speed up play, e.g. improved marshaling. These particular local rules are a joke and simply a veiled way for the members to lower their handicaps, nothing more. Eventually, it will catch up with them.

A couple of points re: the post quoted here:
1. You are permitted to play a provisional ball if your original ball MAY be lost outside a hazard or MAY be out of bounds. When it is known or virtually certain that your original ball is in a water hazard (includes lateral water hazard) then you MAY NOT play a provisional. The bolded statement above does not seem correct.
2. Course rating teams disregard areas that are not marked according to the Rules of golf - those local Rules would not be considered during a course rating.

Of course, in casual, non-tournament rounds you do can disregard those local Rules regarding trees and fescue and play by the Rules of golf - if the area doesn't meet the definition of a water hazard, it's not a water hazard under the Rules.
Further, the Rules of golf do authorize the Committee to mark areas within the property boundaries as out of bounds - this is often done for maintenance areas, clubhouses, parking lots and for saftey reasons. A common misconception is that "in course out of bounds" are not allowed under the Rules - they certainly are.

[Benz]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

A couple of points re: the post quoted here:
1. You are permitted to play a provisional ball if your original ball MAY be lost outside a hazard or MAY be out of bounds. When it is known or virtually certain that your original ball is in a water hazard (includes lateral water hazard) then you MAY NOT play a provisional. The bolded statement above does not seem correct.
2. Course rating teams disregard areas that are not marked according to the Rules of golf - those local Rules would not be considered during a course rating.

Of course, in casual, non-tournament rounds you do can disregard those local Rules regarding trees and fescue and play by the Rules of golf - if the area doesn't meet the definition of a water hazard, it's not a water hazard under the Rules.
Further, the Rules of golf do authorize the Committee to mark areas within the property boundaries as out of bounds - this is often done for maintenance areas, clubhouses, parking lots and for saftey reasons. A common misconception is that "in course out of bounds" are not allowed under the Rules - they certainly are.

I was under a misconception regarding the rating procedures. I stand corrected.

I understand the normal rules for when provisionals are allowed. However, if a player is KVC that his ball is in an area of fescue that a local rule has defined as a lateral hazard, is he allowed to play a provisional?

[rulie]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

I was under a misconception regarding the rating procedures. I stand corrected.

I understand the normal rules for when provisionals are allowed. However, if a player is KVC that his ball is in an area of fescue that a local rule has defined as a lateral hazard, is he allowed to play a provisional?

Your statement (bolded in my response post) does not refer to KVC. It says "However, if you aren't sure that your ball is in an area that is considered a lateral hazard, then you are not allowed to hit a provisional ball." In my opinion, if you're not sure it's in a water hazard, and it may be lost outside the water hazard, you are permitted to play a provisional.
In the current situation, there are areas that do not meet the definition of water hazards marked as lateral water hazards, and an unauthorized local Rule.
In casual, non-tournament rounds, the players can choose to follow the unauthorized local Rule or play by the Rules of golf.

[WeekendDuff]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

The trouble with making fescue a lateral hazard to speed up play is during casual rounds people who don't find their ball will drop where they think it went in and hit three from there instead of three from the tee like they are supposed to for a lost ball. They post these scores and this lowers their handicap and so when it comes time to play in a tournament or match where the rules are followed they can't play to their cap.

You can argue they shouldn't post these scores but many folks only play these type of casual rounds and have to post something so they can play in club tournaments. Bottom line is courses shouldn't screw around with the rules of golf. Encourage players to quickly hit their provisional from the tee and not spend too much time searching for a ball in the fescue. Either that or just cut the damn stuff down.

[bk51]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

I was under a misconception regarding the rating procedures. I stand corrected.

I understand the normal rules for when provisionals are allowed. However, if a player is KVC that his ball is in an area of fescue that a local rule has defined as a lateral hazard, is he allowed to play a provisional?

No, and you know that. A provisional is only allowed if you think the ball is OB or lost OUTSIDE A WATER HAZARD. If the local rules say that fescue, stones, trees, marshmallows, pink flamingos or anything else is a lateral hazard, I guess you can play it under the rules of a lateral hazard, but you can't hit a provisional.

The trouble with making fescue a lateral hazard to speed up play is during casual rounds people who don't find their ball will drop where they think it went in and hit three from there instead of three from the tee like they are supposed to for a lost ball. They post these scores and this lowers their handicap and so when it comes time to play in a tournament or match where the rules are followed they can't play to their cap..

Yes, but it's great to play money games against them (as Vermin and I will against Mpare and Benz this summer).

[Benz]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

If the local rules say that fescue, stones, trees, marshmallows, pink flamingos or anything else is a lateral hazard...

Marshmallows and pink flamingos? Where have you been playing since the OVPA?

Yes, but it's great to play money games against them (as Vermin and I will against Mpare and Benz this summer).

Bring your cash. There's no ATM at Osprey Valley!

[A Man Called Papa]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

No, and you know that. A provisional is only allowed if you think the ball is OB or lost OUTSIDE A WATER HAZARD. If the local rules say that fescue, stones, trees, marshmallows, pink flamingos or anything else is a lateral hazard, I guess you can play it under the rules of a lateral hazard, but you can't hit a provisional.


Yes, but it's great to play money games against them (as Vermin and I will against Mpare and Benz this summer).

No. No. Don't do that. The question about hitting a provisional is very precise. Rulie has correctly set it out in his post. So don't come along now and change the parameters. Regardless of where you "think" the ball is, if there is any chance that it "may be lost outside a hazard or out of bounds", you can hit a provisional. Even if you are 99% sure that the ball is in a water hazard. I would encourage everyone to reread Rulie's first post.

[mpare]

Re: Handicap question re local ruiles

Is this your own version of Trump induced, virtual reality? My cap is going up, so it is you, my friend, who will be giving me strokes.

...


Yes, but it's great to play money games against them (as Vermin and I will against Mpare and Benz this summer).