Toe Droop?

[TORAIDER]

I like to play my clubs so I can feel the clubhead. If I'm building a hybrid, to say 38 inches, with a softer tipped shaft (like a Wishon GI335 R or an SK Fiber TT80)...Is it possible to estimate how much toe droop will I encounter? 1* ???

[Weirfan]

Re: Toe Droop?

I like to play my clubs so I can feel the clubhead. If I'm building a hybrid, to say 38 inches, with a softer tipped shaft (like a Wishon GI335 R or an SK Fiber TT80)...Is it possible to estimate how much toe droop will I encounter? 1* ???

Al,

I am no expert on this subject but here is my take on toe droop

one of the reason that you do a dynamic fitting with clubs and dont just have the person stand statically and fit the lie angle is due to toe droop that occurs in the swing.

I would have to say that the amount of toe droop cannot specifically as you ask but should be minimal ......


the longer the club the more potential for toe droop...some companies account for this in the std lies they make the irons but as we know there is alot more to it.

you also need to consider the clubhead design, the swing( speed and release point) and the shaft.

a longer ( heel toe) clubhead will have the C of G further away from the shaft axis in that plane...the further away it is the more toe droop.

an aggressive swing and more specifically a hard hitting mid to late release of the wrists in the down swing the more inpact that physics will have on the shaft bend and more toe droop.

as for the shaft....we have discussed longer but the tip stiffness also impacts toe droop amd forward bending of the shaft in the golf swing.

wood shafts have a smaller tip diamater so less material so almost always softer tipped than an iron shaft.

all said and done due to the nature of the golf swing I believe that the amount of toe droop will anyways be less than the the amount of forward bend of a shaft which averages say about 1.8* or so for a wood shaft depending on a host of factors

The GI 335 is a 335 tipped shaft but designed by Wishon to with stand the weight and rigors of a hybrid head ......I use the stiff without any problems in my hybrids and you have seen my woodchopper swing.

the TT80 comes in a wood shaft ( .335) and an iron shaft ( .370)

I do not recommend using wood shafts in hybrids,,,,,they are not designed for them and wont generally be effective.

the .370 TT80 shaft in a .370 hybrid head would be a far better choice than using theor wood shaft


so...if I were to try and quantify the toe droop for your swing I would definitely say under 1* so insignificant

also keep in mind that woods and hybrids are designed differently .....sole design and leading edge to not dig...and unlike irons are not blade like so do not have the same tendency to dig or catch and as a result

hope that helps

P

[Pingeye2_fan]

Re: Toe Droop?

I look at my irons and they appear a little upright at address but when I hit them on a lie board the lie angle is just right.

[swaaain]

Re: Toe Droop?

Al,


the .370 TT80 shaft in a .370 hybrid head would be a far better choice than using theor wood shaft


so...if I were to try and quantify the toe droop for your swing I would definitely say under 1* so insignificant

also keep in mind that woods and hybrids are designed differently .....sole design and leading edge to not dig...and unlike irons are not blade like so do not have the same tendency to dig or catch and as a result



P

Al,

I concure with Peter. Stay away from the .335 HB shafts. With your current swing, I cannot see you getting that much top droop right now. But if we can get you more confident in your game, that may change. Your swing is getting really solid now. Just need to get you a little more agressive with your move. Increase the club head speed a bit more.

Jeff

[TLT Dan]

Re: Toe Droop?

I want to toss this in for consideration.
I have questioned toe droop for many years or at least what the definition is? I have had discussions with many great builders (including Tom Wishon) about toe droop.

First a bit of history
Some past clubmakers have questioned the shaft orientation, and if 1 position vrs. another will change the amount of toe droop.
Many felt that with drivers - put the strong spine at 12 to keep the head from drooping - great theory, but what happens when you swing this 45 inch stick?
The answer is - the center of gravity inside the head will align with the shaft axis up near the hands. This is why a driver at contact is bent down and forward. The COG is aligning itself due to the centrifical force of the swing. It does not go past this point nor fall short of it. It does align.
So does shaft orientation aid in toe droop - no - The COG will simply get in line. This is why when you look at a driver in a static address position - the toe is well up. Swing it and it flattens but only to the point of COG alignment.

Hybrids have the same theory (as do irons). Should the toe be up as high as the driver in static - no, but it will still need to be 3 -5 degrees up, where irons are 2 - 3 degrees up (at static). Why, because the COG of hybrids and irons are no where near as far back and away as a driver. When you swing a hybrid and an iron - they too will flatten, but only until the COG is in line.

So Al, 1 degree is not correct - more like 3-5 depending on the design of the head. If it is a hybrid with a very long face it will droop more. The COG will align if you use a .335 and it will align if you use a .370
The only varience is if you cannot load the shaft (way too stiff) This is the only thing that will not allow alignment.

[TourIQ]

Re: Toe Droop?

Al,

I concure with Peter. Stay away from the .335 HB shafts. With your current swing, I cannot see you getting that much top droop right now. But if we can get you more confident in your game, that may change. Your swing is getting really solid now. Just need to get you a little more agressive with your move. Increase the club head speed a bit more.

Jeff

Jeff, for hybrids do you think a head design with 335 or 370 tip diameter is better and why
From your experience, can you elorable on what happens to both distance and accuracy?

[TLT Dan]

Re: Toe Droop?

Harry, I'll take a shot at this, although there is some defence for the .335
Many builders do use the .335 shaft to get more tip action - hence - allowing the potential for higher ball flight, greater spin - which is a game improvement feature. The softer tip will allow the ball to get up quicker.

Personally, the hybrids I have liked were all .370 tip - My thought being I am replacing an iron and still look at a hybrid as an iron replacement, so feel and length pushed me to this.

Would I like the softer tip, as this truly is a transition club?
Perhaps, but common feel is very important to me.

Currently I have removed all hybrids from my bag as they all tend to be draw / hook machines to me. A softer tip would even be more discouraging. Why do I hook them? - because almost all hybrids are designed too toe up for my liking. Many are designed around a 60 degree lie, but are replacing a 56 and 57 degree lie club. - causing the hook if built to the club replacement length.

Are hybrids as popular as when they first came out? Not for me. I'm back to playing a 4 iron then a 7 wood

Jeff, for hybrids do you think a head design with 335 or 370 tip diameter is better and why
From your experience, can you elorable on what happens to both distance and accuracy?

[TORAIDER]

Re: Toe Droop?

Many are designed around a 60 degree lie, but are replacing a 56 and 57 degree lie club. - causing the hook if built to the club replacement length.

The Wishon 585HI mix well with the 560s Dan, they are able to adjust the lie angle....as are the new Wishon 331H hybrid. Both are worth a look.

[TourIQ]

Re: Toe Droop?

Harry, I'll take a shot at this, although there is some defence for the .335
Many builders do use the .335 shaft to get more tip action - hence - allowing the potential for higher ball flight, greater spin - which is a game improvement feature. The softer tip will allow the ball to get up quicker.
Personally, the hybrids I have liked were all .370 tip - My thought being I am replacing an iron and still look at a hybrid as an iron replacement, so feel and length pushed me to this. Would I like the softer tip, as this truly is a transition club?

Yes Dan an iron replacement so I too feel more comfortable with a 370 shaft over the 335. My guess without any hard data is the 370 tip would be more stable and hence provide an extra level of accuracy over its 335 counterpart. My son 'fb' tried a Wishon 335 tip and hated it, then fell in love with the 370 Genex 3DX. The 335 would probably have a higher launch but the head is designed to 'get it up' anyway, so I do not feel the need to drop down to 335. I know the Nickent when they first come out were 370 what the boys and I play today and it was a favorite for many of the Nationwide tour guys with no endorsement money. For the more accomplished players I match the 370 hybrid shaft to their iron and wedge set, so the only variable is the head itself. Works for me