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Handicapping Rule Change

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  • #16
    Re: Handicapping Rule Change

    Originally posted by NiagaraGolfGirl View Post
    Up until a couple of years ago there was a difference in equitable stroke control. Then Golf Canada decided to adopt the USGA way apparently to deal with all the snowbirds who play golf in the US over the winter. I'd bet less than 1% of snowbirds ever post their scores.
    Okay, now that we are no longer the USGA's dancing monkey, can we please go back to our better way for ESC. Counting 7 on a par three just invites sandbagging and distorts handicaps.

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    • #17
      Re: Handicapping Rule Change

      Originally posted by NiagaraGolfGirl View Post
      Up until a couple of years ago there was a difference in equitable stroke control. Then Golf Canada decided to adopt the USGA way apparently to deal with all the snowbirds who play golf in the US over the winter. I'd bet less than 1% of snowbirds ever post their scores.
      It had nothing to do with snowbirds (since they would be posting their scores on the Golf Canada site, they would use the Golf Canada ESC).
      The change was made after a statistical analysis which showed that higher handicappers were disadvantaged when that ESC system was in place. I'm sure Golf Canada can provide the data if requested to do so.

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      • #18
        Re: Handicapping Rule Change

        Originally posted by rulie View Post
        It had nothing to do with snowbirds (since they would be posting their scores on the Golf Canada site, they would use the Golf Canada ESC).
        The change was made after a statistical analysis which showed that higher handicappers were disadvantaged when that ESC system was in place. I'm sure Golf Canada can provide the data if requested to do so.
        High handicappers already counted 3 over par. It is the 10-18 group that lost the realistic and fair max of double bogey. The recent trend to try to force handicaps up is very discouraging for us baby boomers. Change to the US max of 7 plus the constant re-rating courses to lower rating and slopes is a backhanded slap to those of us who already fight aging to keep our handicaps down while the powers that be keep trying to "help us" go up. Golf is a solo game in which we measure ourselves by our handicap. The basis was fine and they need to stop helping us by disadvantaging us. My US buddies adopted the Canadian ESC I used years ago because it made more sense to them than 7's on par 3's.

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        • #19
          Re: Handicapping Rule Change

          Originally posted by Galted View Post
          High handicappers already counted 3 over par. It is the 10-18 group that lost the realistic and fair max of double bogey. The recent trend to try to force handicaps up is very discouraging for us baby boomers. Change to the US max of 7 plus the constant re-rating courses to lower rating and slopes is a backhanded slap to those of us who already fight aging to keep our handicaps down while the powers that be keep trying to "help us" go up. Golf is a solo game in which we measure ourselves by our handicap. The basis was fine and they need to stop helping us by disadvantaging us. My US buddies adopted the Canadian ESC I used years ago because it made more sense to them than 7's on par 3's.
          I understand your points. However, the purpose of the handicapping system is to provide a system which allows low handicappers and high handicappers to compete against each other on (relatively) equal footing. In the past the lower handicappers had an advantage, ie, won more than 50% of the time.

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          • #20
            Re: Handicapping Rule Change

            Originally posted by Galted View Post
            Okay, now that we are no longer the USGA's dancing monkey, can we please go back to our better way for ESC. Counting 7 on a par three just invites sandbagging and distorts handicaps.
            I think it's been 3 or 4 years since the change, and having to count those 7's on the par 3's still burns me up when it happens.

            I have discovered the cure for this: get better at the game and become a single digit h/c

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            • #21
              Re: Handicapping Rule Change

              Originally posted by wlorcb View Post
              I think it's been 3 or 4 years since the change, and having to count those 7's on the par 3's still burns me up when it happens.

              I have discovered the cure for this: get better at the game and become a single digit h/c
              That would certainly minimize the number of 7's you have to count, particularly on par 3's! Perhaps course management is included in getting better at the game?

              Of course, in competitions, there is no crutch, you must count your actual score, which may be even higher!

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              • #22
                Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                Originally posted by Benz View Post
                Just to clarify, the USGA does not define the Rules of Golf in Canada.
                Perhaps it’s worth distinguishing between the Rules of Golf which are jointly determined by the R&A and the USGA and the rules of the handicapping system of a particular country. The R&A has nothing to with handicapping unlike the USGA which deals with both the Rules of Golf and handicapping. I assume there is nothing to prevent a country like Canada adopting the USGA handicapping system, the CONGU system, the EGA system or having one entirely of its own invention. Whatever the case may be, the players will nevertheless be playing under the same rules of golf as everyone else.

                (My family does not know me as the Pedantic Old Fart for nothing. )

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                • #23
                  Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                  Originally posted by ColinL View Post
                  Perhaps it’s worth distinguishing between the Rules of Golf which are jointly determined by the R&A and the USGA and the rules of the handicapping system of a particular country. The R&A has nothing to with handicapping unlike the USGA which deals with both the Rules of Golf and handicapping. I assume there is nothing to prevent a country like Canada adopting the USGA handicapping system, the CONGU system, the EGA system or having one entirely of its own invention. Whatever the case may be, the players will nevertheless be playing under the same rules of golf as everyone else.

                  (My family does not know me as the Pedantic Old Fart for nothing.
                  This is true, but unfortunate as it just causes confusion.

                  Perhaps the game is approached differently overseas and that may require a difference in approach, but I think the US and Cdn players have a lot in common. It's certainly of no benefit to keep the factor vs index distinction. Is it?

                  CONGU seems an unnecessary player at the table, but I imagine it would be difficult to transition their role to the R&A, assuming the R&A is even interested.
                  "Confusion" will be my epitaph
                  ...Iggy

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                    Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
                    This is true, but unfortunate as it just causes confusion.

                    Perhaps the game is approached differently overseas and that may require a difference in approach, but I think the US and Cdn players have a lot in common. It's certainly of no benefit to keep the factor vs index distinction. Is it?

                    CONGU seems an unnecessary player at the table, but I imagine it would be difficult to transition their role to the R&A, assuming the R&A is even interested.
                    That distinction is a copyright issue. The USGA own "handicap index".

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                      Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post

                      CONGU seems an unnecessary player at the table, but I imagine it would be difficult to transition their role to the R&A, assuming the R&A is even interested.
                      CONGU is the largest handicap provider outside the USA. In addition to GB & Ireland, it is used widely in Asia. The European Golf Association (the third largest provider) use essentially the same system plus slope.

                      The R&A territory covers the whole of the rest of the world outside the USA and Mexico and the countries involved use a multitude of handicapping systems.

                      The working party looking at a worldwide system comprise (from an erratic memory) the R&A, USGA, CONGU, the EGA, South Africa, Australia and Argentina
                      Putting isn't golf, greens should be treated almost the same as water hazards: you land on them, then add two strokes to your score.
                      - Chi Chi Rodriguez

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                      • #26
                        Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                        Originally posted by rulie View Post
                        I understand your points. However, the purpose of the handicapping system is to provide a system which allows low handicappers and high handicappers to compete against each other on (relatively) equal footing. In the past the lower handicappers had an advantage, ie, won more than 50% of the time.
                        I have to disagree. It is the low handicappers who always complain about being screwed by the handicap system and I tend to agree. Handicap is all hocus pocus that solves nothing except to reward the higher handicap for an aberration. There was nothing wrong with the previous ESC other than snowbirds having to post two different scores when they also maintained a USGA cap. Now that there will be two different again with the USGA solo ruling, we can go back to our better way.

                        Once told that the fairest handicap is to subtract average number of pars or better from 18. That is a golfer's true ability.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                          Originally posted by Galted View Post
                          I have to disagree. It is the low handicappers who always complain about being screwed by the handicap system and I tend to agree. Handicap is all hocus pocus that solves nothing except to reward the higher handicap for an aberration. There was nothing wrong with the previous ESC other than snowbirds having to post two different scores when they also maintained a USGA cap. Now that there will be two different again with the USGA solo ruling, we can go back to our better way.

                          Once told that the fairest handicap is to subtract average number of pars or better from 18. That is a golfer's true ability.
                          Just because they complain doesn't make it factually correct.
                          Stating again that the snowbirds had nothing to do with the change in ESC. It was based on a statistical analysis, available from Golf Canada should you wish to inquire.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                            Here's the notice that the GAO released back in 2012 to announce that change... I knew I saw that reference to snowbirds somewhere. The reference is under the heading "IMPACT OF THE NEW ESC METHODOLOGY"

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                            • #29
                              Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                              Originally posted by rulie View Post
                              Just because they complain doesn't make it factually correct.
                              Stating again that the snowbirds had nothing to do with the change in ESC. It was based on a statistical analysis, available from Golf Canada should you wish to inquire.
                              Presumably, there was a statistic analysis behind the original ESC deviation from the USGA version? There is no tracking of matches between high and low handicaps so how did they determine a percentage advantage. Spouting a non-existent analysis to justify adopting the weaker USGA approach for consistency is just spin. It is more likely that the Clublink influence over the RCGA drove the decision (only one with north/south members). Similar marketing-induced influence as seeing most CL courses with slope ratings in the 130's when many of us know that our 115 sloped courses are far more difficult.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Handicapping Rule Change

                                Originally posted by NiagaraGolfGirl View Post
                                Here's the notice that the GAO released back in 2012 to announce that change... I knew I saw that reference to snowbirds somewhere. The reference is under the heading "IMPACT OF THE NEW ESC METHODOLOGY"

                                https://gao.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...xplanation.pdf
                                Certainly that is correctly identified as an impact of the change. However, it wasn't the reason for the change, which is outlined in the paragraph (section) above that, "Why the change to ESC methodology."

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