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Old Jan 11, 2017, 08:32 AM   #26
Tintin
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
I'm pretty sure there's a few independent research groups that have proven FLO Spine and Pure all do nothing really to effect performance.

I know I've read it.

I'm still unsure the difference between them all

I do know that a lot of Tour players don't even know what it is or use it.

Tour vans do not have any of these processes.

A coworker of mine personally knowns brooke and brittney Henderson. They don't use FLO pure spine etc. They didn't even know what it was.
A couple years ago I caught a conversation on TV with Nick Price and Greg Norman.
They both did not know the difference between a .370 and .355 shaft
The Hendersons are great players but don't know much about technology

SST is on tour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnkPGluFWg8
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 08:49 AM   #27
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
I'm pretty sure there's a few independent research groups that have proven FLO Spine and Pure all do nothing really to effect performance.

I know I've read it.

I'm still unsure the difference between them all

I do know that a lot of Tour players don't even know what it is or use it.

Tour vans do not have any of these processes.

A coworker of mine personally knowns brooke and brittney Henderson. They don't use FLO pure spine etc. They didn't even know what it was.
Do you honestly believe that Tour players are provided with the same quality shafts that are shipped out to the masses? Or do you think that the manufacturers carefully screen the shafts they give Tour players to test out and play with to ensure they get the best possible performance from them so that their product will be seen on tour?

This test, while not 100% scientific, would lean towards it appearing to make some difference:
http://pluggedingolf.com/does-purein...ths-unplugged/

Last edited by Gridiron; Jan 11, 2017 at 08:55 AM.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 09:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

again I say...tour vans and tour pros do not use this process. They are in the business of winning matches.

Again the process and demo is cool...but we are human not machines we do not swing a shaft in perfect plane with the face every single time.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 09:32 AM   #29
Laicha
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
It does if you're dealing with a crappy shaft. If the frequency one way is 250 cpm and 260 the other way for example you are dealing with one full flex difference. And the only way to find out is to have it measured in a frequency meter. A bad shaft will wobble significantly when twanged.
Titleist is into golf clubheads not shafts

If you've got a shaft that bad, it belongs in the trash not your club. I don't know if I agree on your point with Titleist though.

Sure, they're not a shaft maker. But isn't it in their best interests to understand shaft dynamics in the production of golf clubs? They're saying that after investing money into R&D, they haven't been able to find any real performance advantages from shaft alignment. It's an add-on service that would immediately add to profits, they could offer it, but they don't.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 09:56 AM   #30
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
again I say...tour vans and tour pros do not use this process. They are in the business of winning matches.

Again the process and demo is cool...but we are human not machines we do not swing a shaft in perfect plane with the face every single time.
I mostly agree, not saying it works or it doesn't. But I have seen customers that have done well with spine-aligned shafts, and some that hated it. Actually hitting the club better before it was done. Even a guy that likes one club that is spined, and hates another one. So bottom line, people aren't robots and there's too many variables in most golfer's games to definitively say that it works or not.

If you feel like it really helps and you want to pay for the service, than by all means go for it. I'm sure there are some Tour Pros that play SST Pure'd equipment, but how many of them actually paid for it? I'd guess not that many.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 10:00 AM   #31
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
again I say..tour pros do not use this process. They are in the business of winning.
PARDON ?

2 billion dollars won by tour pros who use shaft alignment technology .

"Almost $2 Billion Has Been Made On The PGA Tour By Players Who Have Had SST PURE Their Shafts. Innovation on the PGA Tour simply doesn’t stand the test of time unless it delivers a tangible improvement to players. SST PURE is available to players on-site at each week’s Tour events. The SST PURE Tour staff typically PUREs clubs for more than a dozen players each week. "

In 2016 the following PGA pros used it, including notables such as Tiger, DJ, JR, Adam Scott , Rickie Phil, Kuch and the list goes on

Appleby
Tommy Armour III
Ricky Barnes
Charlie Beljin
Jonas Blixt
Jason Bohn
Craig Bowden
Steven Bowditch
Scott Brown
Chad Campbell
Paul Casey
KJ Choi
Eric Compton
John Daly
Brian Davis
Bryson DeChambbeau
Luke Donald
Ken Duke
Ernie Els
Bob Estes
Nick Faldo
Bradley Farmer
Derek Fathauer
Ricky Fowler
Fabian Gomez
Andres Gonzales
Jason Gore
Rateif Gossen
James Hahn
Padraig Harrington
Jim Herman
Wes Homan
Charles Howell III
John Huh
Freddie Jacobson
Dustin Johnson
Sung Kang
Whee Kim
Matt Kuchar
Anirban Lahiri
Bernhard Langer
Danny Lee
Lucas Lee
Frank Lickliter
Andrew Loupe
Shane Lowry
Jarrod Lyle
Will MacKenzie
Ben Martin
Hideki Matsuyama
Troy Merritt
Phil Mickelson
Seung Yul Noh
Sean O’Hair
Greg Owen
Ryan Palmer
Carl Patterson
Carl Paulson
Scott Piercy
D.A. Points
Tom Purtzer
Patrick Reed
Wes Roach
Patrick Rogers
Justin Rose
Rory Sabbatini
Adam Schenk
Adam Scott
Vijay Singh
Brandt Snedeker
Brandon Steele
Chris Stroud
Hudson Swafford
Michael Thompson
Nicolas Thompson
DJ Trahan
Omar Uresti
Stan Utley
Dawie Vander-Walt
Jonathan Vegas
Camilo Villegas
Mike Weir
Steve Wheatcroft
Will Wilcox
Tim Wilkinson
Garrett Willis
Gary Woodland
Tiger Woods


As Tintin correctly states :Why they use it:
"shafts aren’t perfectly straight or perfectly round. Studies have shown that irregularities in a shaft’s structure cause off-line bending and twisting during the golf swing. This causes an increase in shot dispersion or, in irons, inconsistent performance from club to club"
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Last edited by Weirfan; Jan 11, 2017 at 10:12 AM.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 10:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Gridiron View Post
Do you honestly believe that Tour players are provided with the same quality shafts that are shipped out to the masses?
I'd include clubheads as well. They probably hit a whole bunch of them until they find the right one.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 10:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Laicha View Post
It's an add-on service that would immediately add to profits, they could offer it, but they don't.
It would add to the cost. Production time, training,labour et al. Moreover the process gets complicated with the various adjustments. I for one found the right loft setting on my F6. Once I found it I removed the adapter and aligned the shaft with the setting.

Weapons of mass production
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 11:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Whether you believe in it is up to you. SSTPuring can add to the cost of fitting.
The cost of informing yourself to the benefit of FLO is free.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 11:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
It would add to the cost. Production time, training,labour et al. Moreover the process gets complicated with the various adjustments.
Exactly !

It's for the same reasons that for off the rack they lean to using taper tipped shafts , don't measure /confirm and adjust shaft flex, clubhead loft or lie on every club ......if they did all these things that would contribute to a more consistent and better perfroming set of clubs it would cost the end user twice as much for a set of irons.

Tour Edge did offer puring as an upgrade at $25 a club. That adds up in a hurry,
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Last edited by Weirfan; Jan 11, 2017 at 12:12 PM.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 12:51 PM   #36
Laicha
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
PARDON ?

2 billion dollars won by tour pros who use shaft alignment technology .

"Almost $2 Billion Has Been Made On The PGA Tour By Players Who Have Had SST PURE Their Shafts. Innovation on the PGA Tour simply doesn’t stand the test of time unless it delivers a tangible improvement to players. SST PURE is available to players on-site at each week’s Tour events. The SST PURE Tour staff typically PUREs clubs for more than a dozen players each week. "

In 2016 the following PGA pros used it, including notables such as Tiger, DJ, JR, Adam Scott , Rickie Phil, Kuch and the list goes on

Appleby
Tommy Armour III
Ricky Barnes
Charlie Beljin
Jonas Blixt
Jason Bohn
Craig Bowden
Steven Bowditch
Scott Brown
Chad Campbell
Paul Casey
KJ Choi
Eric Compton
John Daly
Brian Davis
Bryson DeChambbeau
Luke Donald
Ken Duke
Ernie Els
Bob Estes
Nick Faldo
Bradley Farmer
Derek Fathauer
Ricky Fowler
Fabian Gomez
Andres Gonzales
Jason Gore
Rateif Gossen
James Hahn
Padraig Harrington
Jim Herman
Wes Homan
Charles Howell III
John Huh
Freddie Jacobson
Dustin Johnson
Sung Kang
Whee Kim
Matt Kuchar
Anirban Lahiri
Bernhard Langer
Danny Lee
Lucas Lee
Frank Lickliter
Andrew Loupe
Shane Lowry
Jarrod Lyle
Will MacKenzie
Ben Martin
Hideki Matsuyama
Troy Merritt
Phil Mickelson
Seung Yul Noh
Sean O’Hair
Greg Owen
Ryan Palmer
Carl Patterson
Carl Paulson
Scott Piercy
D.A. Points
Tom Purtzer
Patrick Reed
Wes Roach
Patrick Rogers
Justin Rose
Rory Sabbatini
Adam Schenk
Adam Scott
Vijay Singh
Brandt Snedeker
Brandon Steele
Chris Stroud
Hudson Swafford
Michael Thompson
Nicolas Thompson
DJ Trahan
Omar Uresti
Stan Utley
Dawie Vander-Walt
Jonathan Vegas
Camilo Villegas
Mike Weir
Steve Wheatcroft
Will Wilcox
Tim Wilkinson
Garrett Willis
Gary Woodland
Tiger Woods


As Tintin correctly states :Why they use it:
"shafts aren’t perfectly straight or perfectly round. Studies have shown that irregularities in a shaft’s structure cause off-line bending and twisting during the golf swing. This causes an increase in shot dispersion or, in irons, inconsistent performance from club to club"


I think these players would win regardless of the Puring. It's not like they went from not winning, to winning after discovering shaft alignment. I'm also sure that none of them had to pay to have it done, so it's a case of "why not?".

I'm positive tons of players that don't use it have won just a much, so winning is really more a matter of how good they are, not the aligning of shafts.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 12:53 PM   #37
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
Exactly !

It's for the same reasons that for off the rack they lean to using taper tipped shafts , don't measure /confirm and adjust shaft flex, clubhead loft or lie on every club ......if they did all these things that would contribute to a more consistent and better perfroming set of clubs it would cost the end user twice as much for a set of irons.

Tour Edge did offer puring as an upgrade at $25 a club. That adds up in a hurry,
I'm not sure if it is or isn't worth it for a player, but an added service would be worth it to the company if they are charging for it. It's not like it's a donation by them, you pay for it andoesn't they do the work. You don't pay and you get your club as is.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 01:10 PM   #38
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
I'm not sure if it is or isn't worth it for a player, but an added service would be worth it to the company if they are charging for it. It's not like it's a donation by them, you pay for it andoesn't they do the work. You don't pay and you get your club as is.
correct, you will see on my custom clubfitters pages that alignment etc are upgrade charges. in some instances that is also accomplished via custom shop orders.

I was speaking generally to off the rack sets , consistency and one would expect they are getting what they advertise and pay for from a specifications point of view but as has been discussed here over and over, it's not the case and to do it would price the clubs out of what most would be willing to pay.

Ideally, if somebody is serious about golf and wants exacting equipment they need to see a good club builder/fitter.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 01:23 PM   #39
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Laicha View Post
I think these players would win regardless of the Puring. It's not like they went from not winning, to winning after discovering shaft alignment. I'm also sure that none of them had to pay to have it done, so it's a case of "why not?".

I'm positive tons of players that don't use it have won just a much, so winning is really more a matter of how good they are, not the aligning of shafts.
We can also drive a car with unbalanced tires In any sports competitors will do all they can to gain that extra edge.

Even my man Tom Brady will tell you so
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 01:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laicha View Post
I think these players would win regardless of the Puring. It's not like they went from not winning, to winning after discovering shaft alignment. I'm also sure that none of them had to pay to have it done, so it's a case of "why not?".

I'm positive tons of players that don't use it have won just a much, so winning is really more a matter of how good they are, not the aligning of shafts.
This is not a new phenomena, it's been around for a while. SST just took it to the big market.

There is no denying that these guys are good. However, winning golfers don't make changes easily and without purpose. They are certainly not going to allow changes to their clubs without reason. They tend to be resistant to change and highly sensitive to minor fluctuations in feel or performance. That tells me that they wouldn't do it simply for the sake of doing it. They can play whatever ball and clubs they want too , free.


Jack's personal clubmaker for 40 years thinks it makes a difference:

"I'm embarrassed to think about how many Majors the boss would have won if I knew about PUREing when he was playing.
Jack Waulcotte, personal club maker for Jack Nicklaus for more than four decades, a Master club builder and member of the Club Builders Hall of Fame"

Not everyone will believe in it , and that is fine. I've been aligning shafts for a long time so have seen up close the variability within a shaft and between shafts. It can be significant, in terms of flex alone can be a whole flex just based on how a shaft is aligned, repeatable and consistent bend plane amongst other things.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 01:25 PM   #41
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
again I say...tour vans and tour pros do not use this process. They are in the business of winning matches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
PARDON ?

2 billion dollars won by tour pros who use shaft alignment technology .

"Almost $2 Billion Has Been Made On The PGA Tour By Players Who Have Had SST PURE Their Shafts. Innovation on the PGA Tour simply doesn’t stand the test of time unless it delivers a tangible improvement to players. SST PURE is available to players on-site at each week’s Tour events. The SST PURE Tour staff typically PUREs clubs for more than a dozen players each week. "

In 2016 the following PGA pros used it, including notables such as Tiger, DJ, JR, Adam Scott , Rickie Phil, Kuch and the list goes on

Appleby
Tommy Armour III
Ricky Barnes
Charlie Beljin
Jonas Blixt
Jason Bohn
Craig Bowden
Steven Bowditch
Scott Brown
Chad Campbell
Paul Casey
KJ Choi
Eric Compton
John Daly
Brian Davis
Bryson DeChambbeau
Luke Donald
Ken Duke
Ernie Els
Bob Estes
Nick Faldo
Bradley Farmer
Derek Fathauer
Ricky Fowler
Fabian Gomez
Andres Gonzales
Jason Gore
Rateif Gossen
James Hahn
Padraig Harrington
Jim Herman
Wes Homan
Charles Howell III
John Huh
Freddie Jacobson
Dustin Johnson
Sung Kang
Whee Kim
Matt Kuchar
Anirban Lahiri
Bernhard Langer
Danny Lee
Lucas Lee
Frank Lickliter
Andrew Loupe
Shane Lowry
Jarrod Lyle
Will MacKenzie
Ben Martin
Hideki Matsuyama
Troy Merritt
Phil Mickelson
Seung Yul Noh
Sean O’Hair
Greg Owen
Ryan Palmer
Carl Patterson
Carl Paulson
Scott Piercy
D.A. Points
Tom Purtzer
Patrick Reed
Wes Roach
Patrick Rogers
Justin Rose
Rory Sabbatini
Adam Schenk
Adam Scott
Vijay Singh
Brandt Snedeker
Brandon Steele
Chris Stroud
Hudson Swafford
Michael Thompson
Nicolas Thompson
DJ Trahan
Omar Uresti
Stan Utley
Dawie Vander-Walt
Jonathan Vegas
Camilo Villegas
Mike Weir
Steve Wheatcroft
Will Wilcox
Tim Wilkinson
Garrett Willis
Gary Woodland
Tiger Woods


As Tintin correctly states :Why they use it:
"shafts aren’t perfectly straight or perfectly round. Studies have shown that irregularities in a shaft’s structure cause off-line bending and twisting during the golf swing. This causes an increase in shot dispersion or, in irons, inconsistent performance from club to club"
And to expand on this further, Scott Garrison is the go-to guy on the PGA Tour for custom builds and he %100 uses the SST PURE'ing unit on almost all of them. So not sure where you get information that they don't use SST Pure because it's not correct.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 02:11 PM   #42
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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And to expand on this further, Scott Garrison is the go-to guy on the PGA Tour for custom builds and he %100 uses the SST PURE'ing unit on almost all of them. So not sure where you get information that they don't use SST Pure because it's not correct.
Wow just wow
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 02:16 PM   #43
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Wow just wow
Just stating the WOW factor baby.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 02:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
again I say...tour vans and tour pros do not use this process. They are in the business of winning matches.

Again the process and demo is cool...but we are human not machines we do not swing a shaft in perfect plane with the face every single time.

I have had shafts (completely built OEM drivers - no grip) that when I oscillate on my frequency machine - they immediately went 90* and spun in a circle. If this is the state of shaft that is desirable, so be it, but it will never find its way into a club that I build.

If within 1 cycle of oscillation - with never any chance of FLO - it has left its intended line (down the line of the swing path) - and this is perceived as a quality build then I have been wasting my time for years, working on proof of concept. The frequency machine cannot even get a reading, so there is no way of even knowing what flex this shaft is.

Shafts like this will promote all over the face contact. There is no consistency. There is no quality. This is a sloppy build in every sense.

By removing every possible discrepancy is the only way to build a quality product. Sorry I cannot disagree more about the value of FLO.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 03:07 PM   #45
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Laicha View Post
If you've got a shaft that bad, it belongs in the trash not your club. I don't know if I agree on your point with Titleist though.

Sure, they're not a shaft maker. But isn't it in their best interests to understand shaft dynamics in the production of golf clubs? They're saying that after investing money into R&D, they haven't been able to find any real performance advantages from shaft alignment. It's an add-on service that would immediately add to profits, they could offer it, but they don't.
Consider this.
a big reason Titleist disavows the need to Pure their mass produced "for Titleist" shafts is that the licence fee to Pure is more than Titleist pays someone to produce the "made for" shaft.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 05:30 PM   #46
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
correct, you will see on my custom clubfitters pages that alignment etc are upgrade charges. in some instances that is also accomplished via custom shop orders.

I was speaking generally to off the rack sets , consistency and one would expect they are getting what they advertise and pay for from a specifications point of view but as has been discussed here over and over, it's not the case and to do it would price the clubs out of what most would be willing to pay.

Ideally, if somebody is serious about golf and wants exacting equipment they need to see a good club builder/fitter.

Ah right. We are saying/thinking the same thing. There's a good chance it might be worth doing in my driver and 3 wood. Maybe even 5 wood. Beyond that, I see diminishing returns for my skill level, 10 handicap
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 06:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by bl8d View Post
Consider this.
a big reason Titleist disavows the need to Pure their mass produced "for Titleist" shafts is that the licence fee to Pure is more than Titleist pays someone to produce the "made for" shaft.
Russ Ryden has measured the "made for" or what is now called the Plus Series Diamana's and has stated the radial consistency is extremely good.

A shaft with high radial consistency could still be SST Pured but it might be extremely difficult to quantify the effect.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 07:17 PM   #48
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
several of the best shafts I have ever used never cost more than $50 USD
We drew the same conclusion as you did Peter.

My best player is using a new shaft from 2009 model year I paid $25 USD for.
It replaced the 2004 shaft from the same manufacturer that cost $80 CAD
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 07:23 PM   #49
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
It does if you're dealing with a crappy shaft. If the frequency one way is 250 cpm and 260 the other way for example you are dealing with one full flex difference. And the only way to find out is to have it measured in a frequency meter. A bad shaft will wobble significantly when twanged.
Titleist is into golf clubheads not shafts.
Great video thanks for posting Tintin.

There were a few clubmakers from Spinetalkers forum back about 15 years ago who wanted the crappy shaft with a large frequency differential. Once properly aligned they were called Super Shafts. I was active on the group for about 7 years and one of the early members.

My worst shaft I like to show others, had a frequency differential of 15 cpm or 1.5 flexes.
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Last edited by TourIQ; Jan 11, 2017 at 07:30 PM.
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Old Jan 11, 2017, 07:24 PM   #50
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Default Re: Driver Fitting Cost

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Originally Posted by bl8d View Post
Consider this.
a big reason Titleist disavows the need to Pure their mass produced "for Titleist" shafts is that the licence fee to Pure is more than Titleist pays someone to produce the "made for" shaft.
and they don't want to admit there might be a problem with the millions of drivers already sold
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