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Old Mar 15, 2016, 12:30 PM   #1
Phatchrisrules
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Default Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Link from GolfWRX this morning...

http://www.golfwrx.com/360670/the-fa...-length-irons/

Thoughts?
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 01:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

An excellent read from a man who really knows his technology.
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 02:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Thanks for sharing that Chris.

My take is that single length clubs aren't worth the money to have built unless your swing speed is 120 mph.
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 03:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

The real question is will they work for me ?,well they didn't for me lol.now let's talk wedges
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 03:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftygolfer30 View Post
Thanks for sharing that Chris.

My take is that single length clubs aren't worth the money to have built unless your swing speed is 120 mph.
Wishon has strengthened the lofts to account for the swing speed / length differential which should put most player where they hit roughly the same distances.

I can see a lot of value for certain players who truly cannot hit mid to long irons well.

I will be offering the Wishon's from my shop and the length will be determined through my TLT Fitting methodology. Length still needs to be fit so you remain athletic relative to the target lie angle.
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 04:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

There are a lot of pluses for SL set, exact same total club weight, exact same lie, exact same length , exact same stance , exact same ball position for every iron, same flex, swingweight , same feel for every club.......

Versus 8 different club lengths, 8 different club weights, 8 different lie angles,
8 different postures/stances with multiple different ball positions.

It's easy to see which set should produce better consistency once adapted to from a lifetime of using a conventional set design.

As Dan said adjustments to lofts , clubhead design and materials used in the face and have been made to accommodate for the calculated distance differentials in the Wishon set.

For years Many golfers have been using the same length and lie angle for their 4 wedges (LW, sw, gw, PW) because it reduces variability. Some us us have also added the 9i to that so 5 clubs.

While I haven't gone to SL n the 8,7,6,5 ( which happen to be the most inconsistent irons in my set) go figure, i have thought about a hybrid SL set.

4 Wedges , 9 and 8 at 36 inches 7,6,5 at 37 inches, adjust the Lofts to get both gaps tight. Hopefully , I can build this set this summer and report back.
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 04:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
There are a lot of pluses for SL set, exact same club weight, exact same lie, exact same length , exact same stance , exact same ball position for every iron, same feel for every club.......

Versus 8 different club lengths, 8 different club weights, 8 different lie angles,
8 different postures/stances with multiple different ball positions.

It's easy to see which set should produce better consistency once adapted to from a lifetime of using a conventional set design.

As Dan said adjustments to lofts , clubhead design and materials used in the face and have been made to accommodate for the calculated distance differentials in the Wishon set.

For years Many golfers have been using the same length and lie angle for their 4 wedges (LW, sw, gw, PW) because it reduces variability. Some us us have also added the 9i to that so 5 clubs.

While I haven't gone to SL n the 8,7,6,5 ( which happen to be the most inconsistent irons in my set) go figure, i have thought about a hybrid SL set.

4 Wedges , 9 and 8 at 36 inches 7,6,5 at 37 inches, adjust the Lofts to get both gaps tight. Hopefully , I can build this set this summer and report back.
Then how come nobody on the PGA Tour uses single length clubs?
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 05:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftygolfer30 View Post
Then how come nobody on the PGA Tour uses single length clubs?
Bryson Dechambeau is the only one that is playing PGA events using them. He has been pretty successful , winning the NCAA and US Amateur and doing ok in his tour events. There is a Euro tour named Gareth Shaw who was experimenting with the pinhawk SL irons and according to the website is putting them in play . Outside that not sure. Of course Moe Norman didn't exactly play a true single length iron but he choked down in every iron to the same length which was the inspiration for the first SL design sets. He wasn't a bad ball striker.

Although the concept made an appearance 30 odd years ago, and David Lake has made a very successful living with his SL design, it's really only been gaining traction in the past 2 years. Cetainly Bryson's success has had a monumental impact. All sellers of SL irons sold out of single length sets for months after his US Amateur win. value golf can't keep up to the demand for their SL irons and are sold out again until May.

Of course your post is simply a troll post for as you should know there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour. There are numerous reasons why, pros being paid insane sums of money in endorsements to play a brand is part of the reason.
As well, Mentally, physically, it would be a major, major change . It would be difficult to convince a pro to abandon such a significant design concept, one that they have grown up playing with and have spent 20,30,40 years with.

you also know, ( or should) that a piece of golf equipment or golf concept doesn't need to have professional tour validation in order to be good or valid. There are many golf club designs ,golf balls made by every golf company in the world have not and never will see play on the professional tour. Then again maybe pros are playing the latest wide soled shovels by callaway, offset driver, and Costco's Callaway golf balls.

Whether we will see more tour pros make the move to SL concept , who knows, maybe it will just be Bryson and Gareth? There are however, many pros who do Have their 4 wedges the same length.

Finally, you also know that what's good for pros is not always what is good for amateurs. Otherwise , why aren't all amateurs using blades for irons with x100 shafts and so on.

SL has merit as a an iron design concept because it can reduces variability which leads to increased consistency, something that many amateurs can benefit from.
Is it perfect, no design concept is. It has attracted a large customer base in the past couple years and Bryson's success has helped increase that even more, with more companies now producing SL designs.
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Old Mar 15, 2016, 06:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
Bryson Dechambeau is the only one that is playing PGA events using them. He has been pretty successful , winning the NCAA and US Amateur and doing ok in his tour events. There is a Euro tour named Gareth Shaw who was experimenting with the pinhawk SL irons and according to the website is putting them in play . Outside that not sure. Of course Moe Norman didn't exactly play a true single length iron but he choked down in every iron to the same length which was the inspiration for the first SL design sets. He wasn't a bad ball striker.

Although the concept made an appearance 30 odd years ago, and David Lake has made a very successful living with his SL design, it's really only been gaining traction in the past 2 years. Cetainly Bryson's success has had a monumental impact. All sellers of SL irons sold out of single length sets for months after his US Amateur win. value golf can't keep up to the demand for their SL irons and are sold out again until May.

Of course your post is simply a troll post for as you should know there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour. There are numerous reasons why, pros being paid insane sums of money in endorsements to play a brand is part of the reason.
As well, Mentally, physically, it would be a major, major change . It would be difficult to convince a pro to abandon such a significant design concept, one that they have grown up playing with and have spent 20,30,40 years with.

you also know, ( or should) that a piece of golf equipment or golf concept doesn't need to have professional tour validation in order to be good or valid. There are many golf club designs ,golf balls made by every golf company in the world have not and never will see play on the professional tour. Then again maybe pros are playing the latest wide soled shovels by callaway, offset driver, and Costco's Callaway golf balls.

Whether we will see more tour pros make the move to SL concept , who knows, maybe it will just be Bryson and Gareth? There are however, many pros who do Have their 4 wedges the same length.

Finally, you also know that what's good for pros is not always what is good for amateurs. Otherwise , why aren't all amateurs using blades for irons with x100 shafts and so on.

SL has merit as a an iron design concept because it can reduces variability which leads to increased consistency, something that many amateurs can benefit from.
Is it perfect, no design concept is. It has attracted a large customer base in the past couple years and Bryson's success has helped increase that even more, with more companies now producing SL designs.
Get off your high horse for once and answer the question without being a know it all and accusing me of being a troll.

One pro, that was given as an example in the article, with a swing speed 120 mph is hardly a good example of a building method appropriate for the vast majority of amateur golfers.

"there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour." "Hundreds", really??? Please name 100, never mind hundreds.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 01:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
Bryson Dechambeau is the only one that is playing PGA events using them. He has been pretty successful , winning the NCAA and US Amateur and doing ok in his tour events. There is a Euro tour named Gareth Shaw who was experimenting with the pinhawk SL irons and according to the website is putting them in play . Outside that not sure. Of course Moe Norman didn't exactly play a true single length iron but he choked down in every iron to the same length which was the inspiration for the first SL design sets. He wasn't a bad ball striker.

Although the concept made an appearance 30 odd years ago, and David Lake has made a very successful living with his SL design, it's really only been gaining traction in the past 2 years. Cetainly Bryson's success has had a monumental impact. All sellers of SL irons sold out of single length sets for months after his US Amateur win. value golf can't keep up to the demand for their SL irons and are sold out again until May.

Of course your post is simply a troll post for as you should know there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour. There are numerous reasons why, pros being paid insane sums of money in endorsements to play a brand is part of the reason.
As well, Mentally, physically, it would be a major, major change . It would be difficult to convince a pro to abandon such a significant design concept, one that they have grown up playing with and have spent 20,30,40 years with.

you also know, ( or should) that a piece of golf equipment or golf concept doesn't need to have professional tour validation in order to be good or valid. There are many golf club designs ,golf balls made by every golf company in the world have not and never will see play on the professional tour. Then again maybe pros are playing the latest wide soled shovels by callaway, offset driver, and Costco's Callaway golf balls.

Whether we will see more tour pros make the move to SL concept , who knows, maybe it will just be Bryson and Gareth? There are however, many pros who do Have their 4 wedges the same length.

Finally, you also know that what's good for pros is not always what is good for amateurs. Otherwise , why aren't all amateurs using blades for irons with x100 shafts and so on.

SL has merit as a an iron design concept because it can reduces variability which leads to increased consistency, something that many amateurs can benefit from.
Is it perfect, no design concept is. It has attracted a large customer base in the past couple years and Bryson's success has helped increase that even more, with more companies now producing SL designs.
That was not trolling as he asked you a legitimate question.

Where is this "large customer base", the word customer implying they have SL clubs? I've seen thousands of clubs come into GT over the last 13 years for regripping and have not seen one SL club including the ill fated Armour EQL design. Nor have I seen one on the course even though I play over 100 rounds per year in Canada and the USA.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 03:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
Bryson Dechambeau is the only one that is playing PGA events using them. He has been pretty successful , winning the NCAA and US Amateur and doing ok in his tour events. There is a Euro tour named Gareth Shaw who was experimenting with the pinhawk SL irons and according to the website is putting them in play . Outside that not sure. Of course Moe Norman didn't exactly play a true single length iron but he choked down in every iron to the same length which was the inspiration for the first SL design sets. He wasn't a bad ball striker.

Although the concept made an appearance 30 odd years ago, and David Lake has made a very successful living with his SL design, it's really only been gaining traction in the past 2 years. Cetainly Bryson's success has had a monumental impact. All sellers of SL irons sold out of single length sets for months after his US Amateur win. value golf can't keep up to the demand for their SL irons and are sold out again until May.

Of course your post is simply a troll post for as you should know there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour. There are numerous reasons why, pros being paid insane sums of money in endorsements to play a brand is part of the reason.
As well, Mentally, physically, it would be a major, major change . It would be difficult to convince a pro to abandon such a significant design concept, one that they have grown up playing with and have spent 20,30,40 years with.

you also know, ( or should) that a piece of golf equipment or golf concept doesn't need to have professional tour validation in order to be good or valid. There are many golf club designs ,golf balls made by every golf company in the world have not and never will see play on the professional tour. Then again maybe pros are playing the latest wide soled shovels by callaway, offset driver, and Costco's Callaway golf balls.

Whether we will see more tour pros make the move to SL concept , who knows, maybe it will just be Bryson and Gareth? There are however, many pros who do Have their 4 wedges the same length.

Finally, you also know that what's good for pros is not always what is good for amateurs. Otherwise , why aren't all amateurs using blades for irons with x100 shafts and so on.

SL has merit as a an iron design concept because it can reduces variability which leads to increased consistency, something that many amateurs can benefit from.
Is it perfect, no design concept is. It has attracted a large customer base in the past couple years and Bryson's success has helped increase that even more, with more companies now producing SL designs.
I don't think he was being a troll at all. It's a legitimate fact, if it worked so well, why don't more tour pros adopt this strategy? Surely even pros who get endorsement contracts from the big companies could get a set of SL clubs built with no questions asked. If Phil, Jordan, Rory, or Tiger of 10 years ago asked for a set of SL clubs, they would be at their doorstep made perfectly to spec by the following morning. Tour Vans are incredibly talented club builders that can make wonders happen. I question the guy who makes garbage component clubs (like actually low-end components, not components in general) for his buddies and family, charges them a stupid amount of money for literal junk and in the same breath claims they have found the secret to building golf clubs that somehow every other professional club builder has missed. Even the ones tour pros entrust their clubs, and by extension, their careers on these guys, so why is some random club-hobbiest with an ego suddenly more of an expert? It's asinine.

To also comment about the pros using equipment that us mortals can't play, I think is a bit of stretch too. Take Spieth for example. World #1 right now, and he plays clubs that even a decent 8-10 handicap could manage without shooting a million each round. Sure, his shafts may be stiffer, and the driving iron 3 iron is maybe a bit of stretch, but my point still stands. AP2's are not that impossible to hit. Titleist drivers and fairways again are not exactly known for their impossibility. In fact, the D2 driver may be one of the most forgiving drivers on the market right now because of how much spin it produces to help hit it straighter. Would an amateur use a 6.5 Project X? Probably not. But that isn't a fair comparison. They can very easily use that shaft, if the proper flex is applied. To stretch the analogy, it's basically saying the same thing as skinny people can't wear the exact same make of pants as somebody who has a size 42 waist. Sure they can, and vice versa. It's made from the same material, looks the same, and has the same performance benefits (i.e. keeping you warm, dry, and so you don't accidentally show off your goods to passersby) it just needs to be tailored and fit correctly to work. So yes, many, many amateurs play the same clubs that tour players do, with very good success. There are also some who play clubs and shafts that are out of their league but they enjoy what they play. So what? If we only sold golf clubs based solely on ability, 40-50% of the golf market would be gone. Titleist and Mizuno would not even make golf clubs, Nike probably wouldn't be either since they started out making blades and tiny forged CBs. If this scenario were also true, every other person you played with would be using Ping G-Max irons or Callaway XR OS. The average golfing population still needs more help than these clubs offer, but frankly I don't think the companies can make a golf club forgiving enough for the average person...they just don't put enough practice and are not skilled enough to make anything work.

To come back to your other points, I do agree single lengths have taken off a bit in the wedges. I don't think it is quite the revolution you are making it out to be, but you may have more inside information than I do...because I have absolutely none except for maybe the odd second hand input I hear from here or WRX. I personally did it for this coming season. I haven't used them yet so I can't say whether or not it has helped me or hurt. All of my wedges are 36", and play to the same length as my PW. I can definitely give a little more insight after I've played a few rounds with them. Having said all of this, I am still unsure of this further buying craze you are talking about. But again, it is outside of my market, being an employee at GT, we just don't carry that type of stuff. But I will agree with RGK5 in saying I cannot for the life of me remember ever having one person in the 11 years I've been there actually use single length clubs. Sure, we have the odd retiree bring it up from time to time because their God Moe Norman did it or some pseudo-version of it. Why do they put so much stock in one great ball striker? Hogan was a fantastic ball striker, Sergio, Henrik, etc are too....but they all used progressive lengths.

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer. Nor will there ever be, it'll always be a case of mine is better because of X and the other side will say well mine is better because of Y. And they will never meet in the middle because they don't want to. As Ryan summed up in the article, it could work for you, it may not, but make sure if you do do it, it is done properly. Based on his data, he seemed to have a little bit better distance gapping with the SL clubs, but that was about it. He was consistently shorter and more erratic with them that with the progressive lengths. So why would someone want a club that they hit shorter and more crooked? Further, why would I want a set of irons that the only thing is helping me hit it further is the loft. That means if I mis-hit my 5 iron a touch, I'm going to hit it significantly shorter than if I mis-hit my progressive length 5 iron. It doesn't make sense.

I am truthfully not trying to antagonistic, I am just not sure what any of the benefits of SL clubs are, apart from MAYBE tighter distance gapping with each club. But even in that regard, if you go through a gapping analysis with a fitter who is halfway decent, they would be able to give you even, consistent gapping with any clubs, SL or progressive.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 03:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Thank you both for the expanded explanations. They were both very helpful and answered the question I was asking.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 03:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

DeChambeau's mind > his athletic ability...

Touring pro's mind < athletic ability..

Not saying touring pro's aren't smart, but what got there is the ability to adjust to each club and excel. That's their livelihood. I wouldn't mess around to much here if I was in their shoes.

DeChambeau used physics which solved a problem to him. He fully understands his logic behind it, as do others. It works for him, and most likely for others who are willing to try.

This might be a fad, but it has brought about this discussion which in turn might bring further enjoyment for others and their golfing.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 05:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgk5 View Post
That was not trolling as he asked you a legitimate question.

Where is this "large customer base", the word customer implying they have SL clubs? I've seen thousands of clubs come into GT over the last 13 years for regripping and have not seen one SL club including the ill fated Armour EQL design. Nor have I seen one on the course even though I play over 100 rounds per year in Canada and the USA.
Perhaps not irons but back when Accuform was in its heyday I asked if they would make up a set of - Driver -2wood -- 4wood and 5 wood at all 5 wood length- played them for 15 years --- and have played with a few people over the last 40 years with woods at the same length
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 05:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

My take on it:

It's easier to build SL club sets. Figuring out the new weights and lofts to create a properly gapped set is simple math and physics. Once done and tested, it's done. Easy. Peasy.

It's easier to build SL club sets. One shaft length. E.P.

Easier to build means cheaper QA: fewer differences => tighter tolerances for the same cost/effort. E. Peasy.

Easier/cheaper to build means a huge market opportunity. Same (or better) performance than your competitors at a lower price or higher margin (or both). A business's wet dream.

SL sets are easier to hit. Same posture, same stance, same swing with every club. The pro who adopts this will beat his peers and make a lot of money. The am who does this will score better, beat his friends, have more fun.

So.... with hundreds of millions of dollars available to OEMs and pros, none of them is choosing to do it?

CEO of Ping says "no thanks, I wouldn't know what to do with a much bigger bonus. Not for me. Thanks".

Rory, Jason, Bubba, Rickie, Jordan and Adam were each approached with this idea. They all had the exact same reply: "I'm comfortable hovering slightly below world #1 most of the time, thanks. That's all I was really interested in. No thanks".

Maybe.

Or maybe it's not all that good a solution for the majority. It's working for Deschambeau, some other guy on the Euro tour. That's nice. For them.

DCBABY says: "Not saying touring pro's aren't smart, but what got there is the ability to adjust to each club and excel."

If pros can adjust to each club, surely they can adjust to SL.

Because of the size and colours in the dispersion chart I wasn't sure I was reading it properly, but it looked to me like the MP25s performed way better than the SL set. Is that right?
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 05:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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Originally Posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
My take on it:
Because of the size and colours in the dispersion chart I wasn't sure I was reading it properly, but it looked to me like the MP25s performed way better than the SL set. Is that right?
That's what I took from it too. Except for a questionable gap in the distance of his 6i to 5i (167 to 191 I think), the 25 combination seemed to be straighter and at least 1 club longer on average. So if we tie in Ryan's comments on DeChambeau's swing speed of 125 with a driver (so likely around 100 with a 6 iron), he doesn't need the extra distance a progressive set offers. He is likely hitting the sweetspot 99.5% of the time (as will most touring pros). As I took from it, the only real improvement with the SL clubs over the progressives was more consistent yardage gappings between each club. But I still argue that this is very achievable with any set, regardless of SL or progressive. As any club fitter worth their salt would be able to see that, in Ryan's case, the 5i is going almost 24 yards longer than the 6i on average, and his 6 only has a 7 yard gap from the 7. So in this case, it would make sense, assuming he wasn't dead tired at this point and making sloppy swings, that the 6 iron needs to be bumped up in loft a degree or two to accommodate proper gapping of 10-12 yards per club. He could maybe even stand to weaken the 5i a hair.

But hey, it's only 1 test...the manufacturers know what they are doing in terms of lofts for optimal distance gapping and progression. I will trust them.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
(bad back...i am tall etc)
so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
"well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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That was not trolling as he asked you a legitimate question.

Where is this "large customer base", the word customer implying they have SL clubs? I've seen thousands of clubs come into GT over the last 13 years for regripping and have not seen one SL club including the ill fated Armour EQL design. Nor have I seen one on the course even though I play over 100 rounds per year in Canada and the USA.
I believe that Dan and Jim ( Kona Golf) are the only two distributors of SL clubs in Canada and both just recently started doing so I wouldn't expect that you would see many if any in Canada. Perhaps they can confirm and comment on what they have observed in their short time as distributors.

The Wishon sets are still in production afaik , due out in May. Dan and other Wishon club fitters will then have the ability to build those sets.

Outside of David Lake's design, The SL concept that has just been pushing through in the last 2 years so very new. The Pinhawk SL heads have been selling out in the US. ....From their website

"PLEASE NOTE: We are sold out until our next shipment that arrives late in May. We will take preorders on these as that shipment gets closer and we have an exact time frame on their arrival. The best way to be aware of when we are opening up preorders is to subscribe to our newsletter HERE. We apologize for the delay, but with the popularity of these it's out of our control - we are at the mercy of the manufacturing foundry and their backlog. "

From what I hear, pre demand for the Wishon sets is high.

SL are built by custom fitters ( and some hobbyists) so I doubt that GT will see much for grip replacement even if they do become popular , they will be brought to the builder or done themselves. I haven't ever brought a club to GT to get a grip installed , it doesn't mean the clubs I use aren't popular or aren't good.

Whether SL continues to gain exposure who knows. Right now the only distributors/manufacturers are are those in the " component" world . There are some golfers who don't believe that a golf club can be any good unless it carries a brand name. Perhaps a major name will adopt the concept perhaps they won't and the SL concept will remain as an option used only by some custom fitters who use components?

Some very good club concepts that originated in the component world have gone on to be adopted by the OEM's ( moveable weights, adjustable hosels , shaft adaptors to south shafts, square drivers to name a few ) only time will tell if SL will do the same.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post
DCBABY says: "Not saying touring pro's aren't smart, but what got there is the ability to adjust to each club and excel."

If pros can adjust to each club, surely they can adjust to SL.
IMHO: For most, especially pros, practice is conscious and playing is unconscious. Adding variables moves the playing into the conscious side of things. Not good when your playing pays your bills, or your education.

Most definitely they could adapt; but why when what they have works. Why risk all they been grooved to do.

Maybe 5-10 years down the line, we'll see this becoming more common in the collegiate and pro ranks.

IMHO, SL clubs allowed DeChambeau to move into the unconscious side of playing.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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Originally Posted by sharkhark View Post
i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
(bad back...i am tall etc)
so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
"well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
Tommy Armour tried this a few years ago with their EQL and it didnt catch on. I dont think anyone here is bashing at all. IF they worked better then some OEM would build them and they would sell . Pretty simple. The idea makes sense to a degree ...I just can't figure out how I would hit a 7 iron length club 220 yards with a 4 iron head on it.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:17 AM   #21
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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Perhaps not irons but back when Accuform was in its heyday I asked if they would make up a set of - Driver -2wood -- 4wood and 5 wood at all 5 wood length- played them for 15 years --- and have played with a few people over the last 40 years with woods at the same length
Yes, true. But I think we can all agree that woods are too long to begin with. From personal experience, I play my woods "short" compared to manufacturer standards, but about on par with tour player lengths. 45" driver, 42.75 or 43 inch 3 wood and I think 42" 5 wood. I can't remember off the top of my head, but those seem to ring a bell.

I think a better option would be to play a driver at 44.5-44.75 inches, which is actually the standard Cobra as adopted the past two years. And then play accordingly long fairways. So maybe 42.5 3 wood and and 41.5 5. It is no secret either that shorter = more control. Therefore, it could be argued that in a SL set your long irons would provide you more control, your 6/7 iron would see no change, and your 8-PW would actually be more erratic because they are longer than standard, by up to 2.5 inches if you compare a PW to a "standard" 6 iron length, going in typical .5 inch increments.

WeirFan's idea may be the best of both worlds, but it would be MEGA hard to adjust to. Single length wedges, fine, sure I am on board with that, and then single length mid irons, single length long irons, and then single length woods. It might be the answer and sounds like it could work on paper. At the same time though, you are always dealing with one or two clubs that are much shorter than standard, one or two that are bang on standard, and a few that are massively long to standard. Again, based off of conventional length setups.

Personally, I just feel that the potential distance discrepancies that are fixed are not enough to make the average guy switch to something like this. If we take Ryan's post as gospel (since I haven't seen any other launch monitor data of a similar test), then the average guy will stand to lose about 1 club of total distance in long/mid irons, and then as the set progresses shorter to a 7iron, suddenly they re-gain the distance back, but now control becomes an issue.

Call me a nay-sayer all you want. I just see more merit to progressive lengths. I think clubs need to be about 1/2 shorter than they are now, so back to "standard" of about 8-10 years ago. But that's beside the point. As long as manufacturers keep putting in these light weight, soft shafts, they need the extra length to get a reasonable swing weight without making the head as heavy as a sledgehammer and risk weakening the shaft in flex any further.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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Originally Posted by sharkhark View Post
i think that all of us have an iron in our set that we have greater confidence in than the others and enjoy hitting more than others....for me it would probably be my 8 or 9 iron....
i find my long irons a bit harder to hit consistent and my shorter irons i hit well mostly...but i have a tendency to stand up in swing because i am bent over more than i like.
(bad back...i am tall etc)
so what does that sound like? that a single length set mimicking my 8 iron (roughly that) would put me in a comfy position all the time.

would it work out that way for distance and accuracy in real life? dunno. i will wait and see how this new resurgence in interest works for Wishon and the like.

but what i don't get? is the ferver that some are coming into this thread with to bash the idea. Going on and on about how bad an idea it is (when i am guessing most have not even had the chance to try a single length).

i get some being doubtful or slightly cautious on it...but the overzealous slam downs over those interested in it is baffling?

saying things like "well if it is so good why wouldn't the pro's use it?" (well holy bejesus they play what they are paid to play...and most oem do not offer these).
"well if it were so good why wouldnt titleist...or ping etc etc be working on a set" (well holy bejesus...many products in the world started and became mainstream...until someone challenged the norm and the product evolved...who is to say that 5 years from now...with most products in golf getting maxed out in what they can do...that they do not tackle being more comfy in position with one length and swingweight and lie angle?)

anyhow...back to the dripping with disgust and disinterest and criticism over the idea that most seem to feel...........
No one is bashing or "dripping with disgust". I simply stated that the concept has never been greatly accepted by the golfing public. The EQL set was poorly executed and by that time, Tommy Armour was on the down slide. Knowing the OEMs as well as I do and viewing the static state of the game, if they thought they could augment their revenue stream with single length clubs it would have happened already. Companies like Wishon and Pinhawk serve a very small segment of the market with quality products and Chris and I never stated otherwise.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:46 AM   #23
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Regarding the testing /experiment and findings of the author and his comparison of his mp25 set to a single length set.

I have no idea how old he is but let's say 50.

He's comparing the dispertion of a design of set length he might have used for 30-40 years to one he is trying for the first time. One that is quite different in many key respects. Also using a clubhead design (we are not told which SL head he tested) that is likely different from his own mo25

I'm not surprised at all that he didn't hit the SL clubs as well.
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 06:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftygolfer30 View Post

"there have been hundreds of great and successful golf club designs and companies that never made it to or big on tour." "Hundreds", really??? Please name 100, never mind hundreds.
Next time you visit a GT, look at the number of different iron set designs that are on the shelf, maybe 50 different sets.....how many of those club heads are in play on the lpga/PGA? Maybe 1/3 , 1/2 of them ? And that is just this year's models. kzg,mwIshon, Golfworks, golfsmith ,TNT, etc etc etc have all designed very good heads over the years but few if any of their many designs were played on , so yes hundred

So because 1/2 - 2/3 of the iron set designs sold at GT are not played on the PGA tour does that mean that they are no good? No !
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Old Mar 16, 2016, 07:02 AM   #25
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Default Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

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Originally Posted by Weirfan View Post
Regarding the testing /experiment and findings of the author and his comparison of his mp25 set to a single length set.

I have no idea how old he is but let's say 50.

He's comparing the dispertion of a design of set length he might have used for 30-40 years to one he is trying for the first time. One that is quite different in many key respects. Also using a clubhead design (we are not told which SL head he tested) that is likely different from his own mo25

I'm not surprised at all that he didn't hit the SL clubs as well.
He is in his late twenties.
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