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Old Nov 4, 2016, 04:08 PM   #101
danscustomgolfshop
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

sharkhark, can you tell me your wrist to floor as hand to floor means nothing to me.

I expect you will find the short irons will become an improvement over standard length with the 2/3'rd of an inch extension. I would have played a few rounds before jumping into the 2 degree up.

The hits toward the heel tell me that you are now standing slightly too close after you got the extensions. Step back an inch or so. The club is longer now so standing in the same position is not correct.

Without doing a TLT fitting (available on line through my site with continued great success) we are still only guessing. At 6' 1" I expect you certainly need longer short irons - but you may not need longer long irons. Lie angles will dictate the correct lengths.
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Old Nov 4, 2016, 04:11 PM   #102
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bl8d View Post
@sharkhark
A (5/8)extension on your regular flex will soften the shaft more. This can add timing issues, and as you have found out with your fade has changed the face angle to slightly open as it comes into the ball.
Certainly can be. I find when I do extensions - the new length and slightly softer flex will take a few rounds to dial in the release. I tell my players not to panic here - time and probably 5 rounds will be required to dial in the feel for proper release.
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Old Nov 5, 2016, 02:06 AM   #103
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

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Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
sharkhark, can you tell me your wrist to floor as hand to floor means nothing to me.

I expect you will find the short irons will become an improvement over standard length with the 2/3'rd of an inch extension. I would have played a few rounds before jumping into the 2 degree up.

The hits toward the heel tell me that you are now standing slightly too close after you got the extensions. Step back an inch or so. The club is longer now so standing in the same position is not correct.

Without doing a TLT fitting (available on line through my site with continued great success) we are still only guessing. At 6' 1" I expect you certainly need longer short irons - but you may not need longer long irons. Lie angles will dictate the correct lengths.
I have no idea why I typed hand to floor Dan. Brain fart.
it was wrist to floor I meant to write, my wtf was a hair longer than 36.

It's funny you mention that I may need to stand a bit farther away due to new length as I told the guy initially I did feel a bit bent over too much especially in the short irons with my current std setup.
But....
I wanted to be a bit more upright & also a bit more over the ball as I feel more comfortable a bit closer to the ball to swing less flat & more upright.

I told him specifically that I couldn't bring the irons in towards me as I would prefer & it Sounds like extending he suggested does make it worse extending as I wanted better posture (more upright less slumping) and club closer especially the short irons.

if it ends up in farther away when I want to be a bit closer if anything. Maybe I should've had lie angle alone adjusted but then I was going by telling the gt guy what I felt I wanted & leaving it to him to adjust in just a layman in knowledge.

Thx for any info .
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Old Nov 5, 2016, 03:04 PM   #104
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

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I have no idea why I typed hand to floor Dan. Brain fart.
it was wrist to floor I meant to write, my wtf was a hair longer than 36.

It's funny you mention that I may need to stand a bit farther away due to new length as I told the guy initially I did feel a bit bent over too much especially in the short irons with my current std setup.
But....
I wanted to be a bit more upright & also a bit more over the ball as I feel more comfortable a bit closer to the ball to swing less flat & more upright.

I told him specifically that I couldn't bring the irons in towards me as I would prefer & it Sounds like extending he suggested does make it worse extending as I wanted better posture (more upright less slumping) and club closer especially the short irons.

if it ends up in farther away when I want to be a bit closer if anything. Maybe I should've had lie angle alone adjusted but then I was going by telling the gt guy what I felt I wanted & leaving it to him to adjust in just a layman in knowledge.

Thx for any info .
You have made several changes so I do suggest that you play a few rounds or at least hit quite a few on the range before making any more quick decisions. It takes time to get the body to accept the changes as your posture and swing plane are now different than where you were even a week ago.

After a few rounds the swing and contact will improve and ball flight will tell you if you went too far on the lie (hooks) and the length - you have to go by - am I remaining athletic? for every club - with a consistent grip position.
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Old Nov 5, 2016, 06:33 PM   #105
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

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Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
You have made several changes so I do suggest that you play a few rounds or at least hit quite a few on the range before making any more quick decisions. It takes time to get the body to accept the changes as your posture and swing plane are now different than where you were even a week ago.

After a few rounds the swing and contact will improve and ball flight will tell you if you went too far on the lie (hooks) and the length - you have to go by - am I remaining athletic? for every club - with a consistent grip position.
ok will do, thx for your feedback. played today in icy cold and shot an even 80 and the ballflight was much straighter with no hooks. Tiny baby draw. Got more comfortable throughout the round. The lie change definitely helped allot. Will see how things progress.
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Old Nov 12, 2016, 05:05 AM   #106
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

I'll post this here for others' curiosity vs dialoging directly with Dan.

Dan:
What do you with iron heads that have "jacked lofts" ?

Such sets usually don't have stronger lofts without other design considerations.
The set is typically engineered by the manufacturer to be higher launching with lower loft, and some have face-shaping to provide more spring, etc

For example, for my next build with you, the set will either be a combo set of MP5/MP25 or a set of JPX900 Forged. Here are the stock lofts:

CLUB...MP25...JPX900F

4i....... 24.......21
5i....... 27.......24
6i....... 30.......27
7i....... 34.......31
8i....... 38.......35
9i........42.......40
PW......46.......45


In my current MP-53 TLT set, you left the lofts close to stock ( 4i=24, 5i=27, 6i=30) with some minor loft tweaking of 1 degree on others.

If I go with the JPX-900F and their stronger lofts, do you retain those strong lofts in your build ?
My planned build will have 2.0" from 4i to PW.

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Old Nov 12, 2016, 08:20 AM   #107
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

I'll hazard a guess.
Both sets have the same lie i.e 60 degrees and come custom at 38.25 long. TLT is based on a mathematical formula and lie angles. So he would probably leave the lofts alone(providing they are bang on) Your only problem would be to figure out the gaps between each club and your fairway woods or hybrids.
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Old Nov 12, 2016, 10:44 AM   #108
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
I'll hazard a guess.
Both sets have the same lie i.e 60 degrees and come custom at 38.25 long. TLT is based on a mathematical formula and lie angles. So he would probably leave the lofts alone(providing they are bang on) Your only problem would be to figure out the gaps between each club and your fairway woods or hybrids.
First off the design lie angle is not a big deal to me. Changing lie away from standard will not affect distance, but it will direction. Actually let me restate that. If we make a club flatter - the length of the club increases - so distance may go up due to increased club head speed. Even design length does not matter to me. PS. - 60 degree of lie at 38.25 is not custom. Custom is when the length and lie are physically correct for the player regardless of what the spec sheet says. Fitting to the math model - by putting the player into the correct TLT Series - will give me all the length and lie data I need - for that individual.

Lofts can be tweaked to the players preference, but the consideration of what the actual bounce is will help guide me into this decision. Last thing we want is too much bounce - or negative bounce. I always feel distances look after themselves as long as a fairly uniform loft progression is in play. My players may need to relearn their distances - but distance gaps should never be a problem.

Andy
I got no problem with either set - it really comes down to which set of heads you prefer to look at during the address. With one set near 3 degrees strong - you will hit them further than the weaker lofted set. If the goal is more distance then there is only one choice. If distance is not a priority then looks and playability would be my considerations. Both will end up wonderful sets.

Hotter faces in all likelihood will add distance. I know Wishon designs do but I am not fully versed on the Mizuno designs so I will not speculate.
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Old Nov 12, 2016, 12:49 PM   #109
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

[QUOTE=danscustomgolfshop;1594556]Actually let me restate that. If we make a club flatter - the length of the club increases - so distance may go up due to increased club head speed.QUOTE

3 degrees flatter= 1/8 of an inch longer. IMHO not enough impact to affect distance


Quote:
Even design length does not matter to me. PS. - 60 degree of lie at 38.25 is not custom. Custom is when the length and lie are physically correct for the player regardless of what the spec sheet says.
I meant off the rack


Quote:
Lofts can be tweaked to the players preference, but the consideration of what the actual bounce is will help guide me into this decision.
If you look at both sets one offers a 3 iron at the same loft as the other's 4 iron.
http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/golf-cl...jpx900-forged/
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...#entry11995956

I believe you still fit lies with length depending on the player's posture. No? Do you check the lies dynamically after let's say you fitted a guy in your number 7 series?

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Old Nov 12, 2016, 03:36 PM   #110
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

[QUOTE=Tintin;1594588]
Quote:
Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
Actually let me restate that. If we make a club flatter - the length of the club increases - so distance may go up due to increased club head speed.QUOTE

3 degrees flatter= 1/8 of an inch longer. IMHO not enough impact to affect distance




I meant off the rack




If you look at both sets one offers a 3 iron at the same loft as the other's 4 iron.
http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/golf-cl...jpx900-forged/
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...#entry11995956

I believe you still fit lies with length depending on the player's posture. No? Do you check the lies dynamically after let's say you fitted a guy in your number 7 series?
1 - Sorry, we are talking 2 different things. I said "If we make a club flatter - the length of the club increases - so distance may go up due to increased club head speed." I left out that all this is relative to my charts, so if you go from 59* to 58* then the length of the club will increase due to my build chart change from 59 to 58 within it's own Series - not that a 1 degree bend only will add length to the club. Yes it does but it is very minimal.

2 - All of my fitting clubs do live in their own TLT Series. All fitting club 'mini sets' are a 4 iron at 58 lie, a 7 at 61 lie and a PW at 64 lie --- all built to their corresponding lengths (as per my TLT charts). There are 16 charts for adults resulting in 16 mini sets totaling 48 fitting clubs - in both L and R hand.

With the known length's and lies - the player gets to actually swing several of the mini sets (starting with the 7 iron to try and dial in a target fit Series). So you may swing 7 irons from a Series 6,7,8 and 9 trying to get the best athletic feel. Once this is done then I introduce the 4 iron and PW to confirm what TLT build chart will be my target. This requires a few back and forth attempts but both the player and I will decide on which Series has them standing athletic as well as executing a great swing and swing path, looking at turf contact to help confirm the choice.

Many ask why we don't hit balls, and that is due to the fact that history has shown me that it will take 100's of balls to see the true effects of my fittings. You have to go through the ups and downs, the old muscle memories, defeating the poor address position the player has been living with for years.

To hit a few good balls in a row can lead to - a very poor fitting. All of my fittings that I went to over the years (visiting other fitters and getting my Certifications) while developing my system continued to lead me to wedges that were too short and long irons that were too long. My 7 iron remains very much the same length and lie as it has been for many years. TLT changed all the longer and shorter clubs around this 7 iron specification.

Now to answer your question - Of all the sets I have built over many years - there has only been less than a handful that have come back to have either the lengths or lies adjusted. What needs to be adjusted is the player - leaving behind all the muscle memory and habits that have driven them out of their strong athletic address position - from playing poorly fit clubs. There is a small learning curve to fully gain all the confidence in your new TLT set. I tell people it's near 5 rounds, and feedback from my players have confirmed this on many occasions. The dynamic confirmation happens near the 5'th round as they continue to see the straightest and most consistently struck shots of their life.
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 02:53 AM   #111
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

[QUOTE=danscustomgolfshop;1594636]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post

1 - Sorry, we are talking 2 different things. I said "If we make a club flatter - the length of the club increases - so distance may go up due to increased club head speed." I left out that all this is relative to my charts, so if you go from 59* to 58* then the length of the club will increase due to my build chart change from 59 to 58 within it's own Series - not that a 1 degree bend only will add length to the club. Yes it does but it is very minimal.

2 - All of my fitting clubs do live in their own TLT Series. All fitting club 'mini sets' are a 4 iron at 58 lie, a 7 at 61 lie and a PW at 64 lie --- all built to their corresponding lengths (as per my TLT charts). There are 16 charts for adults resulting in 16 mini sets totaling 48 fitting clubs - in both L and R hand.

.
Ok but assuming that the lie remains the same(for example a 4 iron@58 *)
you will end building a shorter 4 iron for the shorter person(or someone with longer arms) therefore a potential loss of distance. No?
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 05:22 AM   #112
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Yes the shorter the person , the shorter the (4 iron - along with all other clubs), all relative to TLT series that got confirmed during the fitting. TLT sets experience very little loss of distance (some actually gain distance due to better contact).

So to work off the 4 iron. Lets say that their own 4 is 61 lie and 39" long. After the TLT fitting we discover that they actually have a superior fit at 37 1/2" - 58 lie. This new club is 3* flat and 1 1/2" shorter. The original club would have been a hook machine without choking down excessively to get the toe down. Directional control, loss of distance and harsh contact is some of the experiences they will have.

By going shorter and flatter, chances of a pure strike go way up with straighter ball flight with great control and a solid feel. The 4 iron has gone from a hated club to a favorite club. I see and hear this all the time.

So to confirm the original design of TLT - if you are short all your clubs will be shorter than your OEM set. Mid height, you long irons will be shorter and your short irons will be longer, very tall - all your clubs will be longer.

The advancements in TLT now offer what I call reduced length sets. TLT original design had just under 3 inches of length range where OEM's are 3 1/2 to 4", where the total range is down near 1 1/2" or less. This again will drive more consistency. This is how Jeff's set is (the author of this thread).
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 05:37 AM   #113
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

The only downside to my TLT set has been the clubs sticking in the bag due to the new oversized grips I put on. I LOVE the grips... just needs a shake here and there in the hoofer to get them seated. Maybe time for a 14 way divider or a cart bag! (have I reached that point already?)

I use to HATE my 5 iron (which had the length and loft of a 4 iron) but now I can manage with it. As I improve my swing I'm sure that club will come along with it.

After converting to TLT and just playing 9 holes with them the clubs performed really well in Arizona over 120+ holes of golf. I haven't had a chance to touch them since but over the last few days just swing on the mat in the garage they feel just right.

We'll see how they perform after the break when I hit Stonehenge for 9 today.
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 07:31 AM   #114
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

My 4i went from 38.5" and 61* to 38.1" and 59* iirc maybe 58*

Before I'd barely hit my 4i flush (1/10) and if idid it was good for maybe 190-200y. The others would be complete mishits going barely 100-150y

Now I'm flushing my 4i 8/10 for 195y consistently and the other 2 are slight misshits that still go 175-185y. Love my 4i now
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 03:44 PM   #115
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
The advancements in TLT now offer what I call reduced length sets. TLT original design had just under 3 inches of length range where OEM's are 3 1/2 to 4", where the total range is down near 1 1/2" or less. This again will drive more consistency. This is how Jeff's set is (the author of this thread).

Almost down to SL length
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Old Nov 13, 2016, 03:58 PM   #116
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

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Almost down to SL length
Yes, my advanced TLT program allows me to reduce the math right down to single length.

Converting a traditional set to SL is not really possible (to do it to the quality level I insist on and head weights that would cause swing weight issues), but by retrofitting to a Reduced length build, retrofits in the area of 1 1/2" rather than 3 1/2" or 4" are possible. I have had good success with this and am happy to offer it as an alternative build.

For those that feel their long irons are too long and their short irons too short, a TLT retrofit or new build will improve your shot and address consistency.
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Old Nov 14, 2016, 03:58 AM   #117
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

@Dan

I get 100% why you don't have people hit balls or a launch monitor and I agree. It does take a few rounds to get used to the TLT concept. And ones ball flight won't come into play until they get consistent which I agree. (I now hit a beautifully consistent push draw with all clubs)

What I will suggest tho is a hitting net. Being able to just feel some contact without flight would be great. I've talked with quite a few guys who all got your TLT done and we all love our clubs but agreed that a net would help.
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Old Nov 14, 2016, 04:22 PM   #118
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

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Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
@Dan

I get 100% why you don't have people hit balls or a launch monitor and I agree. It does take a few rounds to get used to the TLT concept. And ones ball flight won't come into play until they get consistent which I agree. (I now hit a beautifully consistent push draw with all clubs)

What I will suggest tho is a hitting net. Being able to just feel some contact without flight would be great. I've talked with quite a few guys who all got your TLT done and we all love our clubs but agreed that a net would help.
Yes this is something I am going to look into as striking the physical ball gives the feel feedback. Thanks for your comments.
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Old Nov 22, 2016, 01:43 PM   #119
ARL67
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

I had a great visit with Dan yesterday, about 3 sets of TLT irons I have on the go.

For starters we are shortening my current TLT MP-53 set.
I wanted to take 0.25" off my 4-iron, leave my wedges at the same current length, and tweak the rest of the clubs length down the bag accordingly to Dan's "secret formula". I extrapolated my own length chart based on my current set's measurements that Dan provided last year.

Of great interest:
Whereas I previously thought of my set purely from a length standpoint from club-to-club, Dan thinks of it from a lie angle standpoint from club-to-club. The math works out nearly the same, but from a totally different viewpoint ! Dan bends his clubs to 1/10th of a degree.

My previous 4i lie angle was 58*. It will now be 58.7*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.25"

My previous 5i lie angle was 59*. It will now be 59.6*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.20"
... and so on down the bag to PW

So as one maintains their same athletic stance, the club moves either slightly closer to you ( shorter irons ) or slightly farther away from you ( longer irons ) in your stance. I never really completely clued into this perspective of club-building -> lie angle is King !

~ Andy
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Old Nov 22, 2016, 01:52 PM   #120
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

I saw your clubs today... I was in picking up my wedges after some tweaks and finally converting my last wedge into the math model. Now I just need the snow to melt so I can play some more!
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Old Nov 22, 2016, 04:12 PM   #121
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
My previous 4i lie angle was 58*. It will now be 58.7*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.25"

My previous 5i lie angle was 59*. It will now be 59.6*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.20"
... and so on down the bag to PW

~ Andy
Not sure I understand correctly. Making a club more upright makes the club longer not shorter. 1* upright on a good mesuring device equals 1/16th of an inch(
0.06 Inches)
Or did you mean that the length was reduced 0.20
and he bent the lie .7 of a degree more upright to make up for the shorter shaft?



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Old Nov 22, 2016, 04:44 PM   #122
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Making a club more upright makes its vertical height off the ground longer.

Your last sentence has you looking at the change from a length point of view, but the result is the same.
As you stated, reducing length by 0.25" requires an increase of 0.7* in lie to maintain the same athletic stance.
Dan's math model is driven by lie angle. We plug in a lie increase of 0.7* and it tells us the club length will be 0.25" shorter.

Imagine I have my 4i in hand and am in my athletic stance.
Then imagine I am frozen still and the 4i head is frozen to the ground.
Bend the shaft upright. It no longer sits in my hands, and the handle is away from me and higher up.
Unfreeze the head from the ground and slide the entire club towards me until fits in my hands. You will need to butt trim the shaft to get me in the same grip position. The toe of the 4i head will also now be a bit closer to me too.

So our stance with club in hand defines a right angled triangle.

1. Traditional sets are based both on length increments of 0.5" and 0.5* lie change per club, but I'll choose the length increment as the driving factor. But there is no trigonometric relationship between clubs as our hand & stance position need to change for each club.

2. TLT sets are driven by the lie angle increments as the driving factor ( as I've seen in Dan's spreadsheet ) in a trigonemetric relationship between clubs. In my initial MP-53 set, each club 4-PW had 1.0* lie change. We pick the lie, the length is calculated for us for our same athletic stance. My tweak to this MP-53 set is that we are making the lie increment now 1.1* per club, thus shortening each club, starting at the new shorter 4i length ( based on an 0.7* increase in its lie ).

3. Still another person / method may feel the distance of the toe increments away from them should be the driving factor in a trigonemetric relationship between clubs. Maybe they want each successive club to be 0.25" farther away from them ?

Anyway, my visit to Dan was enlightening in thinking about club make-up where lie angle increments are the starting point.
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Last edited by ARL67; Nov 22, 2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Old Nov 23, 2016, 01:39 AM   #123
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
Imagine I have my 4i in hand and am in my athletic stance.
Then imagine I am frozen still and the 4i head is frozen to the ground.
Bend the shaft upright. It no longer sits in my hands, and the handle is away from me and higher up.
Unfreeze the head from the ground and slide the entire club towards me until fits in my hands. You will need to butt trim the shaft to get me in the same grip position. The toe of the 4i head will also now be a bit closer to me too.
.
Ok now I get what you"re saying. This article explains it well
http://blog.hirekogolf.com/2007/11/w...s-do-you-need/

Lie
Golf club lie also has an effect on the length as well. The diagram on the right shows the “Triangle” formed by the length of the club (A), distance in the vertical direction from the butt end of the golf grip to the ground (B) and the horizontal distance from the back edge of the heel of the club to butt end of the club (C).In the following charts, the lie angle of each club will be listed as well.

By altering the lie of the club, a manufacturer could theoretically change the B length.Below in the chart are 4 clubs that are the same length, but different lie angles.For each 1° increase in the lie angle, the butt end raised approximately 1/3” off of the ground with the center of the sole touching the ground.In lieu of making the club longer to accommodate a taller individual or one with a high WTF measurement, some golf clubmakers may opt to change the lie angle.
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Old Nov 23, 2016, 02:25 AM   #124
ARL67
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Dan's chart midway down his page explains it too:

http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/tlt-and-tft.html
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Old Nov 23, 2016, 04:33 AM   #125
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Default Re: What my TLT set looks like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
I had a great visit with Dan yesterday, about 3 sets of TLT irons I have on the go.

For starters we are shortening my current TLT MP-53 set.
I wanted to take 0.25" off my 4-iron, leave my wedges at the same current length, and tweak the rest of the clubs length down the bag accordingly to Dan's "secret formula". I extrapolated my own length chart based on my current set's measurements that Dan provided last year.

Of great interest:
Whereas I previously thought of my set purely from a length standpoint from club-to-club, Dan thinks of it from a lie angle standpoint from club-to-club. The math works out nearly the same, but from a totally different viewpoint ! Dan bends his clubs to 1/10th of a degree.

My previous 4i lie angle was 58*. It will now be 58.7*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.25"

My previous 5i lie angle was 59*. It will now be 59.6*
Because of the increase in lie, the length shortens up ~ 0.20"
... and so on down the bag to PW

So as one maintains their same athletic stance, the club moves either slightly closer to you ( shorter irons ) or slightly farther away from you ( longer irons ) in your stance. I never really completely clued into this perspective of club-building -> lie angle is King !

~ Andy
Your adjustments seem miniscule to me,3 sets of tlt on the go ,what's the difference between the 3 ?
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