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Old Nov 16, 2016, 11:06 AM   #26
Tintin
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Removing 0.025" off the butt end of a shaft could,"theoretically" move the MOI enough to bring it into spec and not impede a golfer swing,"all that much
".

If you meant 0.025" it would not actually matter. 0.025 would be overkill imho

0.25 might make a difference

In terms of swingweight MOI matching= 1.3 swingweight points per inch
Couple ways to build to build a MOI match set without a MOI scale.
Assuming the head weights are bang on:
3/8 length increments between each club instead of the usual 1/2 inch.
Or 8 grams difference of head weight.

Quote:
It is quite simple to build a set of MOI-matched irons without the expense of an MOImatching
machine. The first method involves building a set of irons using the traditional
half-inch length increment between heads. Simply adjust the head weights to 8-gram
intervals, instead of the typical 7-gram difference. The MOI will match very closely
throughout the set. Another method is to alter the length difference to 3/8 inch and keep the
head weights 7 grams apart. Since the majority of heads are manufactured with a 7-gram
weight interval, this is a simple assembly method — especially when adding weight to a
head is not easily accomplished.
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Old Nov 16, 2016, 11:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by nearace View Post
so when my ping clubs have an orange dot they are not all the same
Here is a video that explains the difference between TLT and a standard 1/2 increment set. Orange dot simply means that your clubs lies are 2.25 flatter than Ping's standard dot which means your posture changes on every club even though the lies are flatter


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Old Dec 8, 2016, 05:10 AM   #28
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
Depends on the chosen MOI but 2 grams off would be peanuts in terms of length.
That's what I thought based on my very little work helping Certified Class "A" Professional Club Building Society club builder," Jack Baird". If small amounts of butt end shaft removal can produce a iron with the correct MOI, then a "reasonable compromise" is possible. Interesting.
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Old Dec 8, 2016, 02:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
".

If you meant 0.025" it would not actually matter. 0.025 would be overkill imho

0.25 might make a difference

In terms of swingweight MOI matching= 1.3 swingweight points per inch
Couple ways to build to build a MOI match set without a MOI scale.
Assuming the head weights are bang on:
3/8 length increments between each club instead of the usual 1/2 inch.
Or 8 grams difference of head weight.
If you have actually done this, I would be intetested in checking the moI on the scale...

I believe that theory and actual is usually different. Some will commit and invest in equipment and most will not.
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Old Dec 11, 2016, 09:33 AM   #30
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Default Re: MOI fittings

My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) has tested the MOI on the machine verses MOI theories on a number of occasions and has continued to state to me that the builds are very similar and the resultant MOI remains within the tolerances he had set. MOI is a math formula and if everything has been measured within tolerances then the build specs should reflect that.

Please don't get me wrong, I see lots of merit in MOI and the machine should be the most accurate. I would expect if perfect MOI is your goal then as long as the machine has been properly calibrated then this would be the way to go. I simply feel that proper length and lie should always be the overriding factor, and we are talking such a small weight change that will affect an MOI build. The 1/2 to 1g difference we are often talking about is pretty much negligible as far as what a player can feel. Most cannot feel 2 -3 swingweight points, which is 4 - 6g of head weight, so 1/2g would be considered a very small deviation.

No we don't want to get into large variations and every build has give and take, things we simply have to accept, things that we cannot control - tolerances and what we can physically measure and to what accurately.

I spent my whole career doing high level measurement but again tolerances, machine accuracies, gage accuracies, gage R & R (repeatability and reproducibility, human error - all play a part in the fine tuning and accepting of what constitutes a great build, and what little things need to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority.
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Old Dec 23, 2016, 03:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: MOI fittings

this level of "Custom" should be called a "C'est MOI" fitting.
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Old Dec 24, 2016, 02:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: MOI fittings

There is another method of matching heft for irons that is hardly ever mentioned. It could turn out to be a Swingweight match or MOI match or neither. It can be done using a SW scale or a MOI scale


https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt6.php

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Old Dec 24, 2016, 11:49 AM   #33
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) has tested the MOI on the machine verses MOI theories on a number of occasions and has continued to state to me that the builds are very similar and the resultant MOI remains within the tolerances he had set. MOI is a math formula and if everything has been measured within tolerances then the build specs should reflect that.
I could not tell you if they do or don't. Perhaps Jim Klassen could tell.
However even if your TLT builds come close to MOI matching it does not mean that the MOI is right for a particular golfer. 29 TLT series means 29 different MOI matched sets
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Old Dec 24, 2016, 03:50 PM   #34
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Default Re: MOI fittings

See to me the concept of MOI is great however I'd never be fit based on a specific MOI. I like an MOI matched set vs a SW matched set. However I'd never say fit me and build my set around XX MOI.
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Old Dec 24, 2016, 07:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
My old friend Ben Shipton (the very first Clubmaker to register for TLT) ...
The 1/2 to 1g difference we are often talking about is pretty much negligible as far as what a player can feel. Most cannot feel 2 -3 swingweight points, which is 4 - 6g of head weight, so 1/2g would be considered a very small deviation.
No we don't want to get into large variations and every build has give and take, things we simply have to accept, things that we cannot control - tolerances and what we can physically measure and to what accurately.
I spent my whole career doing high level measurement but again tolerances, machine accuracies, gage accuracies, gage R & R (repeatability and reproducibility, human error - all play a part in the fine tuning and accepting of what constitutes a great build, and what little things need to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority.
I remember Ben as a good knowledgeable guy, probably still is, but haven’t seen him visit this forum in years.

I spent the bulk of my career in Quality Management, and early in my career I performed GRR studies on various measurement systems. I subscribe to the theorem, that shot dispersion is diminished when the Delta Variance between clubs approaches Zero. Part of the Taguchi Loss Function. My son was a keynote speaker at the International Taguchi Symposium when he was a Grade 9 student, and got to meet the man himself ... sorry I digress.

Large variations denotes lower quality, and many of the little things do not “need to be prioritized” if you seek to build to a Delta Variance approaching Zero. Rarely does there need to be trade-off’s, but there are cause & effect build relationships which need to be taken into account. Even if “most cannot feel 2 to 3 Swt. points”, this might lead to increased shot dispersion (accuracy). To gain the most entitlement aimed at optimization, it is no longer acceptable to use the width of the goal posts (spec limits). If a player cannot feel the difference, this does not always equate to no improvement in performance if controlled or minimized. Therefore, the characteristic should not be dismissed as acceptable or ok (simply have to accept).

Dan your TLT concept has puzzled me for some time. Per your video you stated, "drop too low or stand too tall". I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle. An ill fitted putter illustrates this concept rather nicely. They stand closer or further away from the ball if the putter is of the wrong length.

As a failure mode, I can visualize some golfers 'dropping down' to hit a short OEM stock wedge which is too short to begin with, but I've never built short wedges, always the fitted length of their respective 9-iron.
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Old Dec 25, 2016, 03:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle.
Thanks so much for this post. The above clip is one of the most important statements/observations i have ever come across !

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Old Dec 25, 2016, 08:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Seems to me that the posture and head position change

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Old Dec 25, 2016, 08:42 AM   #38
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
Seems to me that the posture and head position change

A shorter shaft coupled with a narrower stance will lead to those positions.
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Old Dec 25, 2016, 10:16 AM   #39
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Default Re: MOI fittings

If I remember right both Nicklaus and Hogan advocated/shared the "one ball position for all shots".
The illusion stems from the trailing foot being brought incrementally closer towards the front foot for every more lofted club.

They did differ in their woods set-up though.Hogan's stance went from slightly closed to slightly open by positioning the trailing foot further back from the target line for the driver and woods ,and moving it incrementally in and forward for the differing irons.
Nicklaus's preferred neutral hands let him shape a fade with his slightly open stance.
Hogan's hand position was weaker than Nicklaus's, so to shape his shot he closed/open his stance with his back foot according to the club in hand.
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Old Dec 25, 2016, 04:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle..
^^^ I fully agree with you Harry

.... but like you state, they HAVE TO alter their stance because of the length & lie makeup of their traditional club make-up ( 1/2" length, 1/2* lie gaps per club).
Such golfers have the skill to manage their game with a different stance per club.

In my estimation MOST golfers AREN'T good players with strong fundamentals, myself included who is a mid-high single digit cap.
As such, why not take any help available to us with an easier-to-hit club make-up , by venturing away from the way it has always been done ?

Dans' TLT method is built upon a consistent Lie-Angle change per club, whose length is calculated to a constant stance ( same hand height off the ground ). Over at WRX I also speculated why not make a set with a consistent length gap per set, and adjust the Lie-Angle for a constant stance ( same hand height off the ground ). Instead of using the typical 1/2" per club length change, why not try 1/4" or 5/16" or 3/8" or 7/16" length gaps BUT ADJUST THE LIES for a constant stance.

The already-superior player may not need this help in a set built for stance-consistency.
But is the traditional 1/2" length gaps and 1/2* lie gaps the best mathematical and club-building way to get people into more consistent swing ?
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Old Dec 26, 2016, 11:22 AM   #41
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
I could not tell you if they do or don't. Perhaps Jim Klassen could tell.
However even if your TLT builds come close to MOI matching it does not mean that the MOI is right for a particular golfer. 29 TLT series means 29 different MOI matched sets
You are certainly right that a different MOI will live in all these TLT Series. Tuning the MOI between similar length Series builds will allow a similar MOI to exist between series.

This is partially why I build the way I do. A player may find an idea heft or MOI, but if the length and lie are not correct then there is no value here. If a club is too short or too long I see no value in dialing in an MOI number. This continues to go back to my point of - I takes many rounds for a player to become comfortable with their new fit - ie - lengths and lies. So to do a fitting to get a feel rather than do a fitting to get ideal lengths and lies - relative to you best athletic address is not the focal point I want - to drive all the specs of the set.

Once correct length and lie are determined my focus becomes - what is the best shaft weight to help create a great feel once the lengths are dialed in.

MOI is still just a number derived from a formula - and a tool that helps determine how close to this number you have gotten. If the MOI forces clubs that are too short or too long I see no value. This is why length and lie must be the priority. To build within a set of parameters that are attainable within the limits of this length and lie will control the MOI. Time and hours swinging the clubs will be the final test as to how successful the fitting was.

TLT continues to run very near 100% satisfaction and as long as total weight / swing weight considerations were dealt with in a manner that will help retain a fairly consistent feel, then I have succeeded in building in set that will have a fairly consistent MOI value (again - a number), but the priority will always be length and lie.

I still feel this page drives home the changes a player will be forced to do because of lengths and lies that are not correct for the player.
http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/un...h-and-lie.html
Slides 4 and 5 exhibit the flaws that live in many OEM builds.
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Old Dec 26, 2016, 03:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
I remember Ben as a good knowledgeable guy, probably still is, but haven’t seen him visit this forum in years.

I spent the bulk of my career in Quality Management, and early in my career I performed GRR studies on various measurement systems. I subscribe to the theorem, that shot dispersion is diminished when the Delta Variance between clubs approaches Zero. Part of the Taguchi Loss Function. My son was a keynote speaker at the International Taguchi Symposium when he was a Grade 9 student, and got to meet the man himself ... sorry I digress.

Large variations denotes lower quality, and many of the little things do not “need to be prioritized” if you seek to build to a Delta Variance approaching Zero. Rarely does there need to be trade-off’s, but there are cause & effect build relationships which need to be taken into account. Even if “most cannot feel 2 to 3 Swt. points”, this might lead to increased shot dispersion (accuracy). To gain the most entitlement aimed at optimization, it is no longer acceptable to use the width of the goal posts (spec limits). If a player cannot feel the difference, this does not always equate to no improvement in performance if controlled or minimized. Therefore, the characteristic should not be dismissed as acceptable or ok (simply have to accept).

Dan your TLT concept has puzzled me for some time. Per your video you stated, "drop too low or stand too tall". I do not see this with good players with strong fundamentals. They don’t address the ball with more or less knee flex vs. the golf club they have in their hands, but rather they vary their address position (in/out distance) to the ball, to compensate for the length of the club, which has a different lie angle. An ill fitted putter illustrates this concept rather nicely. They stand closer or further away from the ball if the putter is of the wrong length.

As a failure mode, I can visualize some golfers 'dropping down' to hit a short OEM stock wedge which is too short to begin with, but I've never built short wedges, always the fitted length of their respective 9-iron.
I find this puzzling as I see it with every player and have fit some extremely talented players - who also THOUGHT they were no changing position.

Until you get a set of TLT fitting clubs in your hands you may not be able to convince yourself that you are making these changes.

If you have a 3 iron at 60* lie and 39 1/2 inches, then go to a W at 65 lie and 35 1/2 inches - you will be forced to either adjust your address or grip up or down on the clubs - to compensate.

The TLT math model for a 60* club (regardless of what club) within a TLT Series 7 would be less than 38 inches as the lie is very upright for a long iron - therefor shorten it. A 65* lie angle wedge is still going to be more than 36 inches - so only 2 inches of length differential between the longest iron and shortest iron.

If the lie was flattened on the 3 iron then some additional length can be kept - increasing the range. The lie on the wedge will need to be far more upright if the player wants to keep the short little 35 1/2 inch wedge.

I know you build to - all wedges 36" which is a good compromise and I agree with you here. I see way too many 'too short' of wedges out there and if they are full shot clubs they need to fit your athletic address.

The example I gave is from an average sized man - a TLT Series 7, but the lengths all change as the size becomes bigger or smaller.

Not meaning you - to assume that we all fit the same model and all play similar length clubs is a poor understanding of body sizes and the relationship of the club length and respected lie relative to the fitting process. I want no one making adjustments in their address position to fit the club. The club has to fit you and a big man will play longer clubs than a little man.
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Old Dec 26, 2016, 10:02 PM   #43
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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I find this puzzling as I see it with every player and have fit some extremely talented players - who also THOUGHT they were no changing position.

I know you build to - all wedges 36" which is a good compromise and I agree with you here. I see way too many 'too short' of wedges out there and if they are full shot clubs they need to fit your athletic address.

The example I gave is from an average sized man - a TLT Series 7, but the lengths all change as the size becomes bigger or smaller.

Not meaning you - to assume that we all fit the same model and all play similar length clubs is a poor understanding of body sizes and the relationship of the club length and respected lie relative to the fitting process. I want no one making adjustments in their address position to fit the club. The club has to fit you and a big man will play longer clubs than a little man.
Just to clarify, as a builder who uses 1/2 inch increments in the irons, I always target the wedges and the 9-iron to be 2 inches less than the matching 5-iron. Therefore, not all sets have a 38" 5-iron and a 36" wedge. In addition, all the wedges share the iron shaft with the identical cpm frequency as the matching 9-iron, so they perform with no loss of accuracy with a full swing.

I learn from testing theories with an elite player, with highly developed ball striking ability. I don't need to review a lot of noise in the data with a high standard deviation. If it works with this level of player, it will generally garnish improvement with those less accomplished players ... someone like myself.

Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

He doesn't choke up or down on the grip, even when close to the green. He was instructed to do so when he was 15 years old by his coach, and he dismissed this advice the very next day, based on his own testing and cause & effect analysis. He will however moderate his swing speed, even with a driver, to hit a target distance. He learned to adapt out of necessity, as it took 12 years to find a LH'ed 3-Wood he could hit on command with confidence. It was finding the right 3W head, which posed the challenge for so many years.

What puzzles me, if his length and lie are ill-fitted, since they were not built to the TLT math model, then why does he generally always swing in balance, even when approaching 120+ mph?

Dan you alluded to prioritized trade off's ... what are they?
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 03:24 AM   #44
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Default Re: MOI fittings

[QUOTE=TourIQ;1609035]
Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

QUOTE]

Does this unknown player keep his spine angle constant depending on the club?
http://www.golfloopy.com/full-swing-...t-spine-angle/

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Old Dec 27, 2016, 03:43 AM   #45
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Default Re: MOI fittings

So if someone would be kind to clarify for me, please: if a set of TLT irons is lined up against the wall, with all soles perfectly flat on the ground, would the end of grips be at exactly the same height on the wall for ALL clubs ?
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Last edited by veryold; Dec 27, 2016 at 03:50 AM.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:08 AM   #46
ARL67
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Yes that is the goal -> "constant-stance" as I like to call it.

As each club gets longer, the head moves a bit farther away from you, but your stance and setup would remain the same.

~ Andy
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:22 AM   #47
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
Yes that is the goal -> "constant-stance" as I like to call it.
As each club gets longer, the head moves a bit farther away from you, but your stance and setup would remain the same.
~ Andy
Hi Andy Appreciate your comment, thanks so much. But, and i don't want to be too picky here, i really wanted a more specific answer to my question, since your comment, as valid as it is, didn't quite answer it, with precission.
Thanks and cheers !
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:32 AM   #48
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Harry and another Troll.
Do you not re-read what you write and see how juvenile you come across ?
You're a smart guy-> is this the best argument you could come up with ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
What puzzles me, if his length and lie are ill-fitted, since they were not built to the TLT math model, then why does he generally always swing in balance, even when approaching 120+ mph?

Of course the best pros in the world do not play TLT.
They swing 120+ mph, are in balance, super-skilled, developed from a young age that golf is all that matters, devote their lives to their profession . They are super-skilled and do not need what something like TLT, or other build methods, or a build method like the one you build to, in order to be world class golfers.

To paraphrase what you are saying: "well if the pros/elites don't use it must not be good, so why would average golfer consider anything but what the pros use ? " .... such a lame / troll reply

Conversely I could say -> The best pros in the world also don't play clubs built to Harry's Blue-Printed tolerances. Since the Pros don't play such tightly spec'd clubs, why should anyone else care ??? ... this is equally lame / troll reply from me on your methods. I don't make this statement as I think everyone can benefit from clubs build to very tight tolerances. And if I had an argument against something, it would surely be better than "what the pros/elites use"

We all know your "elite player" is your son FB, and I'm sure he is a great player.
Save yourself some keystrokes and just type FB, you are hiding nothing.
Nor that you hold up a sample size of 1 as your "proof" for whatever is you are arguing against.

Dan, don't even bother replying to such garbage.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:39 AM   #49
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by veryold View Post
So if someone would be kind to clarify for me, please: if a set of TLT irons is lined up against the wall, with all soles perfectly flat on the ground, would the end of grips be at exactly the same height on the wall for ALL clubs ?
They should be pretty close. However the soles/clubhead will be further away.

http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showthread.php?t=166216

If u look at the picture in the first post you will see the handles vary but all clubheads are not wooed flush.

If they were they sit very close to one another. Hence the same repeatable athletic position.

This is still very different then Single Length.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:51 AM   #50
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
They should be pretty close. However the soles/clubhead will be further away.
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showthread.php?t=166216
If u look at the picture in the first post you will see the handles vary but all clubheads are not wooed flush.
If they were they sit very close to one another. Hence the same repeatable athletic position.
This is still very different then Single Length.
Hey, much appreciated and thanked. Excellent reply.
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