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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:19 AM   #51
TourIQ
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
Harry and another Troll.
Do you not re-read what you write and see how juvenile you come across ?
You're a smart guy-> is this the best argument you could come up with ???

Of course the best pros in the world do not play TLT.
They swing 120+ mph, are in balance, super-skilled, developed from a young age that golf is all that matters, devote their lives to their profession . They are super-skilled and do not need what something like TLT, or other build methods, or a build method like the one you build to, in order to be world class golfers.

To paraphrase what you are saying: "well if the pros/elites don't use it must not be good, so why would average golfer consider anything but what the pros use ? " .... such a lame / troll reply

Conversely I could say -> The best pros in the world also don't play clubs built to Harry's Blue-Printed tolerances. Since the Pros don't play such tightly spec'd clubs, why should anyone else care ??? ... this is equally lame / troll reply from me on your methods. I don't make this statement as I think everyone can benefit from clubs build to very tight tolerances. And if I had an argument against something, it would surely be better than "what the pros/elites use"

We all know your "elite player" is your son FB, and I'm sure he is a great player.
Save yourself some keystrokes and just type FB, you are hiding nothing.
Nor that you hold up a sample size of 1 as your "proof" for whatever is you are arguing against.

Dan, don't even bother replying to such garbage.
Motive is not trolling, just trying to engage in a substitutive debate on the topic.
Even when proded for a response, I refrained from debating TLT over the years.

Andy your’re a smart guy, is this quote a better argument?
“TLT continues to run very near 100% satisfaction”.
Could non-TLT clubmakers make a similar claim?

Sorry Andy, I know you play a TLT set, and quick to accept things on blind faith.
What got me puzzled, were Dan’s video comments "drop too low or stand too tall”.
Easy swing fault to fix, just instruct a golfer not to vary their knee flex – easy fix!
Is there a need for clubs to fix basic fundamentals, or just fix the fundamentals?

Also the TLT comments, “considered a very small deviation, and what little things need
to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority”. So what are the prioritized trade off's?

The best pros in the world would be better served playing Blueprinted clubs to very tight tolerances,
but this isn’t within the scope of thread.

We learned a lot over the years using a sample size of 1 elite player, and will continue to do so.
As a Six Sigma Master Black Belt and CLSSBB, I also know when to use a larger sample size than 1.
No number of examples establishes a theory.
A single unexplaned failure of a theory requires modification or abandonment of that theory.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:20 AM   #52
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by veryold View Post
So if someone would be kind to clarify for me, please: if a set of TLT irons is lined up against the wall, with all soles perfectly flat on the ground, would the end of grips be at exactly the same height on the wall for ALL clubs ?
Yes this statement would be correct.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:29 AM   #53
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
Just to clarify, as a builder who uses 1/2 inch increments in the irons, I always target the wedges and the 9-iron to be 2 inches less than the matching 5-iron. Therefore, not all sets have a 38" 5-iron and a 36" wedge. In addition, all the wedges share the iron shaft with the identical cpm frequency as the matching 9-iron, so they perform with no loss of accuracy with a full swing.

I learn from testing theories with an elite player, with highly developed ball striking ability. I don't need to review a lot of noise in the data with a high standard deviation. If it works with this level of player, it will generally garnish improvement with those less accomplished players ... someone like myself.

Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

He doesn't choke up or down on the grip, even when close to the green. He was instructed to do so when he was 15 years old by his coach, and he dismissed this advice the very next day, based on his own testing and cause & effect analysis. He will however moderate his swing speed, even with a driver, to hit a target distance. He learned to adapt out of necessity, as it took 12 years to find a LH'ed 3-Wood he could hit on command with confidence. It was finding the right 3W head, which posed the challenge for so many years.

What puzzles me, if his length and lie are ill-fitted, since they were not built to the TLT math model, then why does he generally always swing in balance, even when approaching 120+ mph?

Dan you alluded to prioritized trade off's ... what are they?
Harry, what is done here is you are essentially dealing with a 1/2 set - 5 iron to the 9 iron if we look at lengths only. There will be minimal adjustment to the player in this circumstance. Still if you kept all the wedges and the 9 iron at 64 lie and lets say 36 inch length then the 5 is 38". Not sure how you determine the lie but I will assume dynamically. I would have this 5 iron set at around 59* lie for 38", and you may end near 60???? There will be very little adjustment to your player with your set - I agree.

But if you build a 3 iron at 39 inches nan still sit near factory standard - lets say 60* for OEM's then this club the player will be forced to adjust, or you have to flatten the lie angle perhaps to its limit to meet the criteria I seek - one address.

I am talking full sets, you are talking near 1/2 set - with longer wedges to compensate. Nothing wrong with this but where TLT will have the advantage is when I am building full sets I don't end up with too long of long irons - as well limiting the risk of breakage to flatten the lie perhaps past it's limits.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:33 AM   #54
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
Harry, what is done here is you are essentially dealing with a 1/2 set - 5 iron to the 9 iron if we look at lengths only. There will be minimal adjustment to the player in this circumstance. Still if you kept all the wedges and the 9 iron at 64 lie and lets say 36 inch length then the 5 is 38". Not sure how you determine the lie but I will assume dynamically. I would have this 5 iron set at around 59* lie for 38", and you may end near 60???? There will be very little adjustment to your player with your set - I agree.

But if you build a 3 iron at 39 inches nan still sit near factory standard - lets say 60* for OEM's then this club the player will be forced to adjust, or you have to flatten the lie angle perhaps to its limit to meet the criteria I seek - one address.

I am talking full sets, you are talking near 1/2 set - with longer wedges to compensate. Nothing wrong with this but where TLT will have the advantage is when I am building full sets I don't end up with too long of long irons - as well limiting the risk of breakage to flatten the lie perhaps past it's limits.
Thanks for the clarification Dan. Can I assume the biggest advantage is with the larger or smaller individual, who gets further away from the so called off the rack standard?
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:41 AM   #55
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
Motive is not trolling, just trying to engage in a substitutive debate on the topic.
Even when proded for a response, I refrained from debating TLT over the years.

Andy your’re a smart guy, is this quote a better argument?
“TLT continues to run very near 100% satisfaction”.
Could non-TLT clubmakers make a similar claim?

Sorry Andy, I know you play a TLT set, and quick to accept things on blind faith.
What got me puzzled, were Dan’s video comments "drop too low or stand too tall”.
Easy swing fault to fix, just instruct a golfer not to vary their knee flex – easy fix!
Is there a need for clubs to fix basic fundamentals, or just fix the fundamentals?

Also the TLT comments, “considered a very small deviation, and what little things need
to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority”. So what are the prioritized trade off's?

The best pros in the world would be better served playing Blueprinted clubs to very tight tolerances,
but this isn’t within the scope of thread.

We learned a lot over the years using a sample size of 1 elite player, and will continue to do so.
As a Six Sigma Master Black Belt and CLSSBB, I also know when to use a larger sample size than 1.
No number of examples establishes a theory.
A single unexplaned failure of a theory requires modification or abandonment of that theory.
The problem with this is near 50% of my work comes from altering someone else's fit.

When people seek my service it is usually because they continue to struggle with the fit after spending (sometimes extraordinary amounts of money) on a set of clubs that were to be fit to them. Most cases wedges are too short and long irons feel too long and appear to be too toe up. They continue to struggle with thin shots and directional control.

I didn't seek them, they came to me for the correction. After my TLT fitting they fully understand all the ills that live in their set - as they have now held clubs that allow them to be athletic - all the time. The re-fit sells itself and the feedback after the correction also speaks for itself.

You spent your whole life on the statistical side. I too have experience here, but the bulk of my education has came from the measurement and design side - how things fit, why they don't fit, and how to correct these components so they do fit.

This is what I did in the automotive world and this is what I do in the golf fitting world. Use a math model that is designed correctly - eliminating all the adjustments the player has had to deal with their entire golfing career.

The 1/2 inch increment can work, and has worked, but a sound understanding on what needs to be done to promote straight ball flight without adjustment to the player is what I seek to control. It's just a little easier with math.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:48 AM   #56
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
Thanks for the clarification Dan. Can I assume the biggest advantage is with the larger or smaller individual, who gets further away from the so called off the rack standard?
Yes, this is where the TLT has the advantage, is with the full fitting rack the tall player simply gets to hold and swing clubs that allow him to remain tall, and the short player no longer has to deal with extreme toe up - or choking down.

Harry I have no problem with any of your challenges. My methods are sound and used by many of the top club fitter's in the world. A number of the Golf Digest top 100 fitters were students of mine within the Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals - out of Georgia. Many of these builder's build to the True Length Technology math model following my methods and build programs and several have stated that TLT is their only build method. I don't track who their customers are but am positive a good number of them have built sets for high level player as these builders are the guys that are benefitting from being on the magazine's list.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 03:53 PM   #57
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
Motive is not trolling, just trying to engage in a substitutive debate on the topic.
Even when proded for a response, I refrained from debating TLT over the years.

Andy your’re a smart guy, is this quote a better argument?
“TLT continues to run very near 100% satisfaction”.
Could non-TLT clubmakers make a similar claim?

Sorry Andy, I know you play a TLT set, and quick to accept things on blind faith.
What got me puzzled, were Dan’s video comments "drop too low or stand too tall”.
Easy swing fault to fix, just instruct a golfer not to vary their knee flex – easy fix!
Is there a need for clubs to fix basic fundamentals, or just fix the fundamentals?

Also the TLT comments, “considered a very small deviation, and what little things need
to be prioritized into the highest to lowest priority”. So what are the prioritized trade off's?

The best pros in the world would be better served playing Blueprinted clubs to very tight tolerances,
but this isn’t within the scope of thread.

We learned a lot over the years using a sample size of 1 elite player, and will continue to do so.
As a Six Sigma Master Black Belt and CLSSBB, I also know when to use a larger sample size than 1.
No number of examples establishes a theory.
A single unexplaned failure of a theory requires modification or abandonment of that theory.
What I often see here is yes, you can maintain the singular address position and keep your knees in the same bend profile when working with the standard specs' of any OEM set, but the adjustment is moved to the hands.

Often will see the player choke down or palm the grip of the shorter irons and have extra shaft sitting above their hands when holding the longer irons. I am speaking here as if the player finds the 7 iron (a mid iron) to be very near a perfect fit. This will be the case if the OEM irons are set to standard.

Harry, not sure how you fine tune the lie angle, but by a mathematical approach I will have every club set identical to the next as far as how much toe is tipped up at address. With a mathematically designed set I am trying to force the player to develop a singular address regardless of the club and remain there for all clubs. It will take near 5 rounds before you begin to see the consistency that I am trying to drive into the set as a whole.

All of us played off the rack - me for many years - and always found my short irons too short and long irons too long - and I believe the majority of us felt this. Tall players - all irons felt too short and short player - we all noticed how high the toe was in the air for these players. These are the reasons I developed TLT. Back then, lie angles of the long irons were flatter and the lengths were shorter so the deviation was less. We weren't playing 39 1/2 inch 3 irons at 60* lie.

As the OEM began its strive to fix every ones slice and add distance, they went upright and added length. Has it done anything for the game of accuracy? I don't believe so. The fit is where the accuracy comes from - by having lies set relative to lengths - forcing the singular address. here consistency will develop and payers games do improve.

I'm all for you statistical approach and appreciate the effort you put into this. As a student of 6 sigma, having worked with many Red X masters - I have seen the benefits. A quality build is very important to me as well.
With respect
Dan
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 09:28 PM   #58
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
Dan, don't even bother replying to such garbage.
Andy are you serious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
You spent your whole life on the statistical side. I too have experience here, but the bulk of my education has came from the measurement and design side - how things fit, why they don't fit, and how to correct these components so they do fit.

This is what I did in the automotive world and this is what I do in the golf fitting world. Use a math model that is designed correctly - eliminating all the adjustments the player has had to deal with their entire golfing career.

The 1/2 inch increment can work, and has worked, but a sound understanding on what needs to be done to promote straight ball flight without adjustment to the player is what I seek to control. It's just a little easier with math.
Dan first off, very respectful replies, to aid in the understanding of the finer points of TLT.

I think automotive has prepared us well, in that we took what we learned in industry, then applied it at home with our golf addiction.
This blending is ‘innovation at its finest’. You branched into the metrology discipline, and I the TQM/Statistical (Six Sigma) discipline.

Heck I’ve been doing this for 20 years. At the start it was the blueprinting of clubs, to include understanding effects of spine alignment.
So for 7 years, I was part of a graphite shaft research group, with other like minded individuals of all disciplines from around the globe.
I seeked to answer one failure mode. Why can a shorter graphite shafted wood have a weaker frequency when trimmed an extra inch.
Once I learned about S/NBP/FLO, and incorporated this knowledge into the club build, then this failure mode was never to be seen again.

With the assistance of FB, our focus shifted to the bigger picture of elite development, to gain entitlement aimed at a lower stroke average.
All of our original research started from the development of a 1 page Cause & Effect Diagram titled, “Decoding Golf’s DNA – 150 Methods™”.
We viewed golf not from a sport, but from a systems perspective. Most of our focus was on 'How to Improve', the stuff most disagree on.

Dan I know you understand the importance of a quality build, and are very dedicated to your craft with a strong following from many top builders.
My hats off for being a true professional and for advancing this profession.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danscustomgolfshop View Post
I'm all for you statistical approach and appreciate the effort you put into this. As a student of 6 sigma, having worked with many Red X masters - I have seen the benefits. A quality build is very important to me as well.
With respect
Dan
Dan you mentioned having worked with ‘many Red X masters’. In the 90’s, I met Dorian Shainin at the GM Continuous Improvement Symposium.
Did you ever work with Jock MacKay, Ph.D., from the University of Waterloo? He was a travelling IIQP stats consultant, and GM and I used him often.
I also remember working with GM folks by the name of Pete Peters and Anita Gatti. Another guy by the name of Mike B, but can't spell his surname.

In some ways with similar automotive 'Q' backgrounds, we got to the same destination ... golf improvement.
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 12:10 AM   #59
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
Sorry Andy, I know you play a TLT set, and quick to accept things on blind faith.
.
^^^ My mistake, I guess I'm the one who is the a*s with commentary like that above ???
I'm glad you know sooo much about me, my game, my research & education & lessons & practice to improve my play.
The "garbage" being your troll post about being "Hmmm, I'm puzzled how my son can play so well without TLT ... ? "

I will not detract further from this thread and will let the MOI /TLT/etc golf discussion continue.
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 03:27 AM   #60
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Default Re: MOI fittings

[QUOTE=ARL67;1609394"

I will not detract further from this thread and will let the MOI /TLT/etc golf discussion continue.[/QUOTE]

The both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?

TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.

Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :

Quote:
TourIQ;1609035]
Dan the elite player I am thinking of, plays a driver at 45.0 inch, a 5-iron at 37.75 inch and 9-iron to 59*LW at 35.75 inch. He is not adjusting knee flex or his spine angle between clubs, and he is aware of the changing X and Y ball positions he wants and needs to change, to get the desired 3D shot trajectory he seeks.

Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showp...3&postcount=44

Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 05:14 AM   #61
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by ARL67 View Post
^^^ My mistake, I guess I'm the one who is the a*s with commentary like that above ???
I'm glad you know sooo much about me, my game, my research & education & lessons & practice to improve my play.
The "garbage" being your troll post about being "Hmmm, I'm puzzled how my son can play so well without TLT ... ? "

I will not detract further from this thread and will let the MOI /TLT/etc golf discussion continue.
thanks
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 06:33 AM   #62
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
The both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?

TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.

Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :

Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showp...3&postcount=44

Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
I brought up knee flex since it was mentioned in the video.
Dan helped me to understand, that for very tall players with conventional length irons, or stock wedges cut too darn short, that golfers will adjust to get down to the ball.

I was going to wait until the spring/summer to observe golfers on the course, before I comment further on the spine angle.
Tintin I hope you don't take exception to this approach, as I collect some observations.
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 06:41 AM   #63
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
The both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?

TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.

Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :




Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showp...3&postcount=44

Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
Obviously I'll let Dan answer as to what TLT is supposed to do

But from my experience with my TLT build knee flex and spine angle are pretty close to the exact same wit all clubs. They very well may be or may not be but as the user they sure do feel it.

The difference between TLT and say SL which opts to give same sound angle swing and knee flex is that with TLT my ball position and hand position do change slightly as does distance from ball.

I've tried SL and even though it sounds very similar. To me it was very different. With TLT I'm still varying my AOA with ball position. SL shouldn't. Part of the problem with SL for me is the mental aspect. (Ie looking at a low lofted 4i and having it closer to middle of my stance or a PW that's so far up with a long shaft)

With TLT I the "Indian" control trajectory spin etc while maintaining almost identical if it better launch characteristics then with a stock OEM set (ie long irons have some roll and short irons are able to stop quick. And I can vary this to some degree)

With SL I found it was much more the "arrow" then the Indian. Obviously you still need to put a good swing on it however all clubs are meant to be swung the same way. I found my long irons went shorter distances and my short irons went about the same but had way to much roll. I was finding myself trying to vary ball position to aadjust spin. To me this defeated the purpose of SL.

Also tLt like OEM is still very workable (trajectory and shot shape) SL for me was not as workable.

As for MOI. I believe in the concepts of MOI however I tend to agree with fitters like Dan, Tom Wishon, Howard Jones. (I believe Maltby is of the same mindset also)
You must first fit for proper length, lie, and shaft weight. Flex, SW and or MOI are good but not at the compromise of the first 3.

As for my TLT set I believe I'm a series 6 or 7? My set ranges in SW from D2.5-D6 (my LW is an outlier at E0) having a buddy check them on an MOI scale the 4-PW were almost perfectly MOI matched. My 52* was close and my 58 was slightly different.
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Driver---Cobra King F6+ (10.5) Aldila Rogue Black 70 S 44.5"
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5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 06:57 AM   #64
Tintin
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
As for my TLT set I believe I'm a series 6 or 7? My set ranges in SW from D2.5-D6 (my LW is an outlier at E0) having a buddy check them on an MOI scale the 4-PW were almost perfectly MOI matched. My 52* was close and my 58 was slightly different.
Fair enough JasonP. It does not mean that the MOI is right for you though.
It could be a higher MOI or a lower MOI than what you are getting.
When fitted by Dan were impact labels used?

Fitters use impact labels to either determine:
1)proper length
2) proper MOI
3) Lie angles
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 07:06 AM   #65
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
I've tried SL and even though it sounds very similar. To me it was very different. With TLT I'm still varying my AOA with ball position. SL shouldn't
Here is a post from a golfer on Spinetalk where he discusses ball position using SL irons. He also claims that he's had his best season in quite a while using SL. As for myself I am not sure most golfers need 9 iron and wedges longer than 36.25

Quote:
I played a set of SL irons extensively this season. I made them from conventional Wishon 752 heads, drilling out weight low on the wedges etc and adding lead tape low on the longer irons. The head weight was 271g. Length 37", in superlight steel. I stopped at a 30* 6 iron. I could only get marginal height out of the 5 iron except from the tee or a flushed hit off the fairway. This is my 3rd and by far most successful build of SL irons.


I tried a softer shaft, less tip trim, in my 6 iron. It didn't help the trajectory any, but it did affect my swing negatively.


As to other points raised here:
-Varying offset throughout my set created no problem whatsoever. I was glad to have it because it helps with keeping shorter irons down and longer ones up. I dislike SL designs that have the exact same casting but with different lofts. That is a simplistic way of designing, without considering the trajectory goals. Pinhawks, for example.


-Ball position is not the big deal with SL irons. The fact that you are swinging one club over and over is the big deal. With this set, by playing only one club, I learned to move the ball back and forward in order to work the ball low and high. Once I learned it with one club, I had it with all of them, automatically.


You no more need to have "ONE" ball position with SL than you do with your regular clubs. If a golfer is expected to be able to learn now to hit a ball lower or higher with regular clubs, why not with SL? The extension of this is that you might want to play your SL PW an inch rearward and your longer irons an inch forward. Might. If you can, that's good! If not, oh well, no big deal. But there is this mindset that you have to find the exact ball position for SL clubs and stick to it. No. Once you get familiar with your one club, you can do what you want with it, subject to your skills.

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Old Dec 28, 2016, 07:19 AM   #66
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Default Re: MOI fittings

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Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
Fair enough JasonP. It does not mean that the MOI is right for you though.
It could be a higher MOI or a lower MOI than what you are getting.
When fitted by Dan were impact labels used?

Fitters use impact labels to either determine:
1)proper length
2) proper MOI
3) Lie angles
No impact labels were used. I suggested to dan this and a hitting net.

His fitting involved taking swings with my clubs and then 3 different TLT sets. Dan analyzed my swings and address positions to help me determine which series fit me best. This was done off of grass however no balls hit. We were easily able to see if I was fat or thin.

I did advise Dan of what I felt were some flaws that I could see. I was lucky because I was already fitted for my CTapers S so we knew based on questions he asked they were a good fit for my retro build.

The issues i identified that would make TLT fitting experience better would be.
1) hitting net with balls
2) I wasn't sure exactly the shaft weights/flex were in the TLT test clubs. The feels of these could make them appear as an illfit IMO. I suggested "more TLT clubs as test clubs.

Essentially have at least the most popular series in R, S and X Flex.

Have the R in 3 weight ranges Sub 100g, 100-110g, 120+ or some mid basically light mid and heavy

Suggest same for S flex
x flex canbe just mid and heavy

I've tried "MOI" I don't buy it in the sense of right or wrong. Unless a moi is grossly too high or too low.

However if you ask Wishon or Howard Jones if you find the proper shaft weight in a fitting and decide to MOI match you will be within a comfortable MOI range. In which it is pretty impossible to have an MOIthats too high or low.

And I think that's why I had such success with my TLT as I've already been fit for shafts and my build was a retro build. I knew a 115-125g shaft was optimal for me in a Stiff flex.

Given i was a series 7 (just checked) my build didn't get extremely long or short. I can see MOI issues if I had to get super long (likely would need a lighter shaft and stiffer)
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Driver---Cobra King F6+ (10.5) Aldila Rogue Black 70 S 44.5"
3W------Cobra King F6 (14.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 42.65"
5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
Irons------Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW C Taper S
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 08:09 AM   #67
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TourIQ View Post
I
I was going to wait until the spring/summer to observe golfers on the course, before I comment further on the spine angle.
Tintin I hope you don't take exception to this approach, as I collect some observations.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I am surprised that it isn't on your
list as you've been at it for quite some time
http://www.golfdna.com/150methods.htm
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 08:28 AM   #68
Jasonp
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Tintin

As for SL. Yes varying ball position was effective at manipulating height. However. If I moved it forward to get say a "normal height" spin was a touch too low. If I tried to get a high shot goodluck holding a green. And adding spin resulted in low shots. I think a 37.25+" 9i/wedge had to do with that.

With my current setup I can hit spinny shots that are a touch lower but still nice height. Or higher softer shots with still enough spin to not fly a green
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Driver---Cobra King F6+ (10.5) Aldila Rogue Black 70 S 44.5"
3W------Cobra King F6 (14.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 42.65"
5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
Irons------Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW C Taper S
Wedges---Cleveland RTX 3 (52/MG 58/LG) C Taper S/KBS 610 Wedge S
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 09:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I am surprised that it isn't on your
list as you've been at it for quite some time
http://www.golfdna.com/150methods.htm
André did Santa forget to stop by your place this Xmas
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 09:54 AM   #70
Tintin
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
Tintin

As for SL. Yes varying ball position was effective at manipulating height. However. If I moved it forward to get say a "normal height" spin was a touch too low. If I tried to get a high shot goodluck holding a green. And adding spin resulted in low shots. I think a 37.25+" 9i/wedge had to do with that.

With my current setup I can hit spinny shots that are a touch lower but still nice height. Or higher softer shots with still enough spin to not fly a green
What brand did you try? Were they set at 37.25 or shorter? If they were 37.25 and you are gaming TLT 7 series you should see a minimal difference at best(unless the lofts were tweaked)

Your Titleist AP2-4 iron is set at 61* of lie. The TLT series 7 4 iron length is very close to 37.25 (Actually a tad over 1/16 longer) Originally it was set at
38.50 so by going TLT the club was shortened 1.25 inches+- peanuts

However the loft of your AP2 4 iron is set at 23 degrees and some SL 4 iron(Pinhawk for example) is set at 20 degrees.For a truer or more exact comparison you should have compared the Pinhawk 5 iron vs your AP2 5 iron ( 25 loft vs 26)
IMHO the real deal or game changer between the 2 happens from the 9 iron on down.

Over the holidays I was in contact with Cobra(Puma)
In my opinion 37.25 SL is too much on the long side. for a set of SL. I was told however that they can be custom fitted.

At over $1000 though I will wait for rgk5's review
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 11:28 AM   #71
Jasonp
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Default Re: MOI fittings

I got to try the cobra SL. Are they not 37.25"? Maybe they're 37.5

As for my 4i it had 24* of loft and was 38.5" and I think 61* Lie
It is now at 24* loft 38.1" and 59* lie
My wedges are 36.35" at 64* lie.

I have a reduced length TLT build and I'm almost certain it was series 7?
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Driver---Cobra King F6+ (10.5) Aldila Rogue Black 70 S 44.5"
3W------Cobra King F6 (14.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 42.65"
5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
Irons------Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW C Taper S
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 02:11 PM   #72
Tintin
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
I got to try the cobra SL. Are they not 37.25"? Maybe they're 37.5

As for my 4i it had 24* of loft and was 38.5" and I think 61* Lie
It is now at 24* loft 38.1" and 59* lie
My wedges are 36.35" at 64* lie.

I have a reduced length TLT build and I'm almost certain it was series 7?
Where did you get to try the Cobras? They are standard at 37.25
but can be custom made to shorter or longer.

The numbers posted above are series 7. If the lie had been kept at 61 then the length would have been 37.35

Glad they worked out for you.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 02:48 PM   #73
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Default Re: MOI fittings

I'm lucky enough to know a mizuno rep, who's also friends with a Cobra rep. Also know another guy who knows a cobra rep who was invited to try the stuff. I tagged along.

I think if SL was the first set I had ever hit it could maybe work? I just think SL designs need to evolve a bit more to help with optimal launch conditions.
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Driver---Cobra King F6+ (10.5) Aldila Rogue Black 70 S 44.5"
3W------Cobra King F6 (14.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 42.65"
5W------Cobra King F6 Baffler (17.5) Aldila Tour Blue 85 S 41.75"
3H-------Cobra King F6 (20.5) Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8 TS S 39.4"
DHY------Adams Super DHY (21) Matrix White Tie S 39.75"
Irons------Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW C Taper S
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 03:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
The both of them are sucking up to each other and like politicians they will find a way to either avoid answering the question or find a way to butter it their ways. Who cares who belongs to the alpha beta sigma fraternity?

TLT by nature is not very compatible with MOI matching. Perhaps in the middle series but very hard to achieve in the short and long series where either weight or length has to be dealt with to achieve the right MOI for a particular golfer. And I assume that when going to a fitting the MOI is not measured and possibly not even discussed.

Harry did not answer my question and probably won't. He wrote the following :




Notice how spine angle is no longer part of the discussion. It has shifted to knee flex You can clearly see from the pic on post 44 that the spine angle
does change in a conventional set.
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showp...3&postcount=44

Can Dan come right out and confirm that the spine and knee flex remain constant throughout the set?
Looks like I missed a lot here. Sorry Harry and I left topic, but quality is always on my mind when talking or building clubs. PS - Harry, yes I worked extensively with Pete and Mike, for many years, but no I don't know the others.

TLT actually is very compatible with MOI - just like 3/8'ths of an inch increment. Your comments about the long and short Series will create high and low MOI values - outside of what most talk about as normal, but that is because I put the length way ahead of the MOI value. You don't hear many talk of MOI when doing reduced or extended length very often.

A long TLT Series will produce higher MOI numbers than what we traditionally see, but there is no way of lowering these numbers due to the length of the club. But I always will put length ahead of MOI. In a set that perhaps has a 38" wedge the MOI value will be high and a lighter shaft (or head) is the only way to reduce. This does get considered when choosing the shaft. By the way I have a great number of customers who do play 38" wedges and are playing some of the best golf of their life. These are very big powerful men that really don't care that a golf club weighs 30g more.

As far as your comments on knee and spine - yes I am after one singular position. My recommendation is to NOT alter this position, but like Jason stated, he does change the AOA. This I consider a players choice, but the singular athletic address position is my goal.
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Old Dec 28, 2016, 03:49 PM   #75
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Default Re: MOI fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonp View Post
No impact labels were used. I suggested to dan this and a hitting net.

His fitting involved taking swings with my clubs and then 3 different TLT sets. Dan analyzed my swings and address positions to help me determine which series fit me best. This was done off of grass however no balls hit. We were easily able to see if I was fat or thin.

I did advise Dan of what I felt were some flaws that I could see. I was lucky because I was already fitted for my CTapers S so we knew based on questions he asked they were a good fit for my retro build.

The issues i identified that would make TLT fitting experience better would be.
1) hitting net with balls
2) I wasn't sure exactly the shaft weights/flex were in the TLT test clubs. The feels of these could make them appear as an illfit IMO. I suggested "more TLT clubs as test clubs.

Essentially have at least the most popular series in R, S and X Flex.

Have the R in 3 weight ranges Sub 100g, 100-110g, 120+ or some mid basically light mid and heavy

Suggest same for S flex
x flex canbe just mid and heavy

I've tried "MOI" I don't buy it in the sense of right or wrong. Unless a moi is grossly too high or too low.

However if you ask Wishon or Howard Jones if you find the proper shaft weight in a fitting and decide to MOI match you will be within a comfortable MOI range. In which it is pretty impossible to have an MOIthats too high or low.

And I think that's why I had such success with my TLT as I've already been fit for shafts and my build was a retro build. I knew a 115-125g shaft was optimal for me in a Stiff flex.

Given i was a series 7 (just checked) my build didn't get extremely long or short. I can see MOI issues if I had to get super long (likely would need a lighter shaft and stiffer)
The hard part about increasing the fitting rack is the amount of clubs required. Currently there are near 150 fitting clubs in my shop and if we added 3 weight categories we would be 450 clubs - just for fitting.

My TLT fitting rack has been a tool to confirm the correct length and lie - allowing the player to swing a long (4) a mid (7) and a short club (PW) in each of the series. This way they can confirm that each end of their iron set will in fact keep them athletic.

There is an additional 15 clubs or so that have shaft weight from 40g - 130 in irons and 50 - 90g for the drivers so total weight can be tested. Over time more clubs get added as additional testing is sometimes required.
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Awarded 'Best New Fitting Idea - 2007 AGCP'
True Frequency Technology TM
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Maltby Clubmaking Academy
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Golf Clubmakers Association (GCA)
- Advanced / Professional
Professional Clubmakers Society (PCS)
- Class 'A'

Phone : 905-263-8510
Hampton, ON
Appointment only
Web site www.truelengthtechnology.com
E-mail: danscustomgolfshop@hotmail.com
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